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Author Topic: Are there any tricks for encouraging Dwarves to take on Dumping jobs?  (Read 1458 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Are there any tricks for encouraging Dwarves to take on Dumping jobs?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 02:53:01 pm »

Immortal-D, you could probably also benefit by learning to use minecarts; you can use them to quantum stockpile stone (or other objects), and you get the benefit that dwarves can use wheelbarrows to get the stone to the stockpile that feeds the minecart, so things will go much more quickly (and with no need to fiddle with dumping).

The long and short of it: create a stone stockpile that allows wheelbarrow use. Next to it, have your dorfs carve a single tile of track (to do this, first smooth the room and then designate two tiles of track to be carved; you may then un-designate one of the two). Finally b-(C)onstruct a track stop on the tile of track, set to dump in any direction except back into the stockpile you've designated.

Now that that's done, create a single-tile stone stockpile wherever you set the stop to dump, and create a (H)auling route that takes from your feeder stockpile and dumps when full, and that has a minecart.

It sounds like a lot, but once you learn the trick it's very handy. You can also use this as the basis for learning about minecarts in general, which are a cool feature.
Although that suffers from the eternal wheel barrow loop: Wheelbarrows in stockpiles get put into the mine cart, gets dumped, hauled back to the stockpile... It's been said to happen when the wheel barrows have a mine cart accepted item inside of it (i.e. a stone in the case of a stone QSP).

Edit: Moved my comment outside the quote, where is should be.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 04:25:32 pm by PatrikLundell »
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Gag Halfrunt

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Re: Are there any tricks for encouraging Dwarves to take on Dumping jobs?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 02:55:20 pm »

Immortal-D, you could probably also benefit by learning to use minecarts; you can use them to quantum stockpile stone (or other objects), and you get the benefit that dwarves can use wheelbarrows to get the stone to the stockpile that feeds the minecart, so things will go much more quickly (and with no need to fiddle with dumping).

The long and short of it: create a stone stockpile that allows wheelbarrow use. Next to it, have your dorfs carve a single tile of track (to do this, first smooth the room and then designate two tiles of track to be carved; you may then un-designate one of the two). Finally b-(C)onstruct a track stop on the tile of track, set to dump in any direction except back into the stockpile you've designated.

Now that that's done, create a single-tile stone stockpile wherever you set the stop to dump, and create a (H)auling route that takes from your feeder stockpile and dumps when full, and that has a minecart.

It sounds like a lot, but once you learn the trick it's very handy. You can also use this as the basis for learning about minecarts in general, which are a cool feature.
Sounds like more than it needs to be.  In particular, I struck out some superfluous stuff above:

a) no need to carve or build the track segment; just build the track stop, set to dump onto the quantum stockpile tile (*not* back onto the "feeder" stockpile).

b) it's the track stop, not the hauling route, that dumps anything in the minecart in the chosen direction, and (virtually?) immediately.  Besides, we don't want stuff to linger indefinitely in limbo waiting until the minecart fills up.

c) the track stop does need to be orthogonally adjacent to the quantum stockpile tile so the minecart can dump directly onto it.  There's no fundamental reason either must be near the "feeder" stockpile, but the further it is the more time dwarves will spend carrying stuff from there to the minecart; that includes walking across the feeder stockpile that we're automatically draining into the quantum pile, so for good speed don't make that more than a few tiles bigger than to accomodate its wheelbarrows.

Track would matter to *guide* the minecart to the next hauling route stop (without track a guided minecart would be *carried* to the next route stop; without any track, a minecart could be *pushed* or *ridden* away... or just sit there).  Hauling route minecart fullness criteria are about when the minecart should be moved on to the next route stop.

A quantum stockpile needs neither... you want the minecart to sit right there and dump whatever it's got as soon as it gets it.  The track stop implements the dumping behavior; the hauling route stop defines what gets loaded into the minecart, where it comes from, and that there's no reason for the minecart to leave.

Minecarts and their interface are a bit tricky to learn (the distinction between *track* stops and *route* stops, and how you often need one but not the other, caused me some confusion).  Quantum stockpiles are one of the best applications, and a good way to begin.
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escondida

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Re: Are there any tricks for encouraging Dwarves to take on Dumping jobs?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 03:29:19 pm »

a) no need to carve or build the track segment; just build the track stop, set to dump onto the quantum stockpile tile (*not* back onto the "feeder" stockpile).

Interesting; to be honest, it never occurred to me to try it without the rails.

Quote
b) it's the track stop, not the hauling route, that dumps anything in the minecart in the chosen direction, and (virtually?) immediately.  Besides, we don't want stuff to linger indefinitely in limbo waiting until the minecart fills up.

Yup, it's a good idea to set up more frequent dumping conditions.

Quote
c) the track stop does need to be orthogonally adjacent to the quantum stockpile tile so the minecart can dump directly onto it.  There's no fundamental reason either must be near the "feeder" stockpile, but the further it is the more time dwarves will spend carrying stuff from there to the minecart

The weight of the boulders is a really big consideration when planning your stone storage and stoneworking workshop layouts, more so than for other goods. Personally, I'd highly recommend making your track stop next to the stockpile to minimize the amount of time dwarves spend hauling stones.

Quote
Minecarts and their interface are a bit tricky to learn (the distinction between *track* stops and *route* stops, and how you often need one but not the other, caused me some confusion).  Quantum stockpiles are one of the best applications, and a good way to begin.

Very true!
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Gag Halfrunt

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Re: Are there any tricks for encouraging Dwarves to take on Dumping jobs?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 04:15:14 pm »

Quote
c) the track stop does need to be orthogonally adjacent to the quantum stockpile tile so the minecart can dump directly onto it.  There's no fundamental reason either must be near the "feeder" stockpile, but the further it is the more time dwarves will spend carrying stuff from there to the minecart

The weight of the boulders is a really big consideration when planning your stone storage and stoneworking workshop layouts, more so than for other goods. Personally, I'd highly recommend making your track stop next to the stockpile to minimize the amount of time dwarves spend hauling stones.

Absolutely.  I meant to emphasize "no fundamental reason either must be near".  A quantum stockpile minecart track stop across the map from its feeder stockpile will work... but if dwarves are hand-carrying cinnabar all that way it's gonna work   s  l  o  w  l  y.  Close spacing is definitely a good idea for heavy stuff like stone.

OTOH, more relaxed spacing might be useful for lighter stuff that dwarves can carry quickly.  Say, one large plants stockpile near the farms can help get crops off the fields quickly, feeding quantum stockpiles next to brewers, querns, kitchens, etc.  That uses more and longer walks by minecart-stuffing peasants to make shorter trips for skilled growers, brewers, cooks, etc.  Whether it's worth the exchange has been left as an exercise.

That said, my usual SOP puts the track stop and quantum stockpile in two tiles un-designated from the feeder stockpile, e.g.:


  FFF
  FMF
  FQF

often wrapped around the consuming workshop (especially for stone consumers like masons, mechanics, smelters):

  FFFFF
  FWWWF
  FWWWF
  FWWWF
  FMQFF

F=Feeder stockpile, M=Minecart track stop, Q=Quantum stockpile, W=Workshop

At the risk of wandering further OT:  Minecarts take some learning, even with the help of all the detail available here and on the wiki (and some hindrance from its volume biased toward powered systems).  IMHO it's worth the trouble to use a save of some stable fort for little experiments and demos to be sure some subtlety works the way you thought.  I've been surprised a few times, but so far testing and a little reflection has verified DF minecarts work sensibly; it's just easy to forget to consider some relevant detail.
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Gag Halfrunt

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Re: Are there any tricks for encouraging Dwarves to take on Dumping jobs?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 04:58:05 pm »

Quote
b) it's the track stop, not the hauling route, that dumps anything in the minecart in the chosen direction, and (virtually?) immediately.  Besides, we don't want stuff to linger indefinitely in limbo waiting until the minecart fills up.

Yup, it's a good idea to set up more frequent dumping conditions.

No.  For a minecart quantum stockpile you don't need to set up *any* dumping conditions at all, other than building the track stop to automatically dump toward your quantum pile.  Hauling route dumping and departure conditions shouldn't come into play at all.

The track stop automagically dumps the minecart before the route stop can even notice whether it's full.  The hauling route should consist of a single stop (conveniently located on the track stop, so the dwarves will put the assigned minecart there); with nowhere to go, departure conditions don't matter.  Or shouldn't, anyway; for my QSPs I always delete all the offered conditions from the route stop, using it only to designate what to pick up from which stockpile (to be promptly dumped by the track stop onto the quantum pile).
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escondida

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Re: Are there any tricks for encouraging Dwarves to take on Dumping jobs?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2017, 05:19:29 pm »

For a minecart quantum stockpile you don't need to set up *any* dumping conditions at all, other than building the track stop to automatically dump toward your quantum pile.  Hauling route dumping and departure conditions shouldn't come into play at all.

The track stop automagically dumps the minecart before the route stop can even notice whether it's full.

Neat! Frankly, I always just assumed that single-tile QSP minecart set-ups would need at least the standard dumping-conditions baggage. It's good to know that that's not the case.
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