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[ZM5]

2. Occasionally, I get migrants that aren't of my forts main race - problem with them is that while they have jobs and the like, they cannot be actually given labors aside from their default one - it just says "no labors available". Don't know how intended/unintended it is.

I've been having some fun with this.  A few of these "visitors" have even been in fist-fights with some of the citizens -- which shows they fit in quite nicely.  One of the visitors was a bard and actually raised the happiness level of nearly 1/4 of the population.  Another visitor is a monster slayer.  Considering I didn't start out with any capable military, that's a bonus too.  It makes for some interesting dynamics and definitely adds to the immersion. 
 

Aren't they just regular visitors?

Yeah, I think he's talking about regular visitors - I meant that I get actual migrants (in citizens list, not other), but because they're not of my forts main race they cannot be assigned jobs for some reason - yet its also clear they're not considered pets.

[FantasticDorf]

Though a part of me wouldn't want to put the magic update off any later than its intended, it'd be nice if we could delve into the hill dwarf arc a little bit to solve these problems first before touching upon magic & making the world very complicated & requiring a large amount of time to pick apart all the new magic mechanics & associated bugs affecting nearly all corners of the game after (which is always going to be the scariest part of that release)

Since there's still a lot we can do to play with, the new (not exactly promised but mentioned) interactions with sites for upcoming versions of pillaging & assigning people to take over the site later in the space before the coming of the magic arc are bread & butter to the off site interaction mentioned by the hill dwarf arc and what we could do with the revamped 'c' world-map.

Dealing with populations other than your own etc in a centralised but connected manner, caverns are also under-loved.

[Clatch]

... before touching upon magic & making the world very complicated & requiring a large amount of time ...

Yeah, not looking forward to that update at all unless there was a more classical Tolkienesk approach where it was more detrimental than beneficial.  For example, the way it's handled now is seems closer to the current theme.  If the tome of life and death is brought into the library and dwarves become necromancers, they don't "control" the ones they turn without building pits and trap doors.  I'm afraid DF is going to lose the grit factor if it turns into another D&D. 

If magic has a more historical approach it should be more about lifeless totems and politics -- you know, things dwarves love.  Those things are already supported in the code anyway and have a foundation everyone is familiar with starting from.  (i.e. Magic should be reserved for evil biomes and not something that should accentuate the DF world.  Whether there are good intentions it will corrupt it either way.)

[FantasticDorf]

Slight misconception there, but they don't have to lock zombies away because they have aligned loyalties to their necromancer masters, but still kind of freak out around neutrals and are cumbersome to manage, more detail to necromancers (defining behaviour, wizard habits) can make this problem worse/better depending on how it is handled. It'd require explicit rules on part of the mythgeneration to explain the effects of necromantic magic and its capabilities (mindless vs intelligent zombies)

Probably the most useful resource around where it got talked about is this thread in the forums.

But yeah, even already established concepts like this would have be to pulled up and reviewed again in great detail as to keep up consistency, and even so players will still have the choice in that version to play without magic by toning down the sliders & removing things they dislike from the RAW's.

[Urlance Woolsbane]

... before touching upon magic & making the world very complicated & requiring a large amount of time ...

Yeah, not looking forward to that update at all unless there was a more classical Tolkienesk approach where it was more detrimental than beneficial.  For example, the way it's handled now is seems closer to the current theme.  If the tome of life and death is brought into the library and dwarves become necromancers, they don't "control" the ones they turn without building pits and trap doors.  I'm afraid DF is going to lose the grit factor if it turns into another D&D. 

If magic has a more historical approach it should be more about lifeless totems and politics -- you know, things dwarves love.  Those things are already supported in the code anyway and have a foundation everyone is familiar with starting from.  (i.e. Magic should be reserved for evil biomes and not something that should accentuate the DF world.  Whether there are good intentions it will corrupt it either way.)

Toady's intent is to encompass a wide range of cosmic frameworks. If you want a world with low levels of magic or one where it tends towards doing evil, then you should be in luck. There will be no one fantasy ethos for DF. Some worlds will undoubtedly be Tolkienesk, others like D&D, and still others like something Salvador Dali and H. R. Giger dreamed up whilst high on LSD.

[KittyTac]

Yeah, there will never be a single magic system.

[GM-X]

Though a part of me wouldn't want to put the magic update off any later than its intended, it'd be nice if we could delve into the hill dwarf arc a little bit to solve these problems first before touching upon magic...

Have any links to the current state of affairs with Hill Dwarves? I've only heard them mentioned a few times.

[KittyTac]

Do not derail development. We want myth.

[ZM5]

Tbh, I think it'd be better if Toady focused on some bugfixing first before working on the myth stuff. Not just the ones from the current update, but other bugs that have been sitting around for quite a while.

[FantasticDorf]

Do not derail development. We want myth.

Im just throwing it out there in the open with the case arguement, in any such order of development the magic update will arrive eventually (been in the works & prototyped for a while) but also pointing out the similarities. Not to be a rebel or cause trouble with the direction of the development without reasoning.

Tbh, I think it'd be better if Toady focused on some bugfixing first before working on the myth stuff. Not just the ones from the current update, but other bugs that have been sitting around for quite a while.

Short term i completely agree with you there and that seems to be what he's currently working on along with adding smaller incremental stuff.

[thvaz]

The myth and magic Update if done together with starting scenarios are work enough for at least 5 years. I doubt Toady will get to a playable state in less than 2 years. I hope he fix the most glaring issues first (morale and stress IMO) before committing for the next long haul.

[Shonai_Dweller]

The myth and magic Update if done together with starting scenarios are work enough for at least 5 years. I doubt Toady will get to a playable state in less than 2 years. I hope he fix the most glaring issues first (morale and stress IMO) before committing for the next long haul.

It's not being done together with starting scenarios. That's the next arc. He did say he might try to split magic into a couple of releases though. We'll see once the plans are fixed in a few months I guess. In the meantime, enjoy they bugfixes & extra stuff.

[Random_Dragon]

The myth and magic Update if done together with starting scenarios are work enough for at least 5 years. I doubt Toady will get to a playable state in less than 2 years. I hope he fix the most glaring issues first (morale and stress IMO) before committing for the next long haul.

Yeah, there are a lot of bugs that I seriously hope will be tackled before we get ANY new content. Not just stuff from the artifact stuff, but the stress stuff, invaders being slow, the cannibalism bug etc have been around for a while.

[thvaz]

The myth and magic Update if done together with starting scenarios are work enough for at least 5 years. I doubt Toady will get to a playable state in less than 2 years. I hope he fix the most glaring issues first (morale and stress IMO) before committing for the next long haul.

It's not being done together with starting scenarios. That's the next arc. He did say he might try to split magic into a couple of releases though. We'll see once the plans are fixed in a few months I guess. In the meantime, enjoy they bugfixes & extra stuff.

I really dislike your patronizing tone. I am at least as well informed as you (probably more) about the past & future routine of releases.

The artifact release alone took more than one year. Before that , the world activation release (0.40.01) took a bit more than two years, and the amount of features in it was far lesser than what is expected for the magic&myth alone. Remember that the myth&magic release isn't supposed to only alter the world gen and history, but everything in gameplay as well. There are features that can't be released piecemeal, or Toady would have release 0.43.01 earlier.

Besides that, Toady usually is wrong about release prospects, as he constantly says so.

I am eager for the next development cycle as well, but Toady should spend some time to fix some serious issues that are hampering the game right now. edit: I know he is going to fix bugs old & new soon. He always does that. However, he tends to leave some important one behind every cycle.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

Honestly I'd rather that some bugs be fixed when the game is a little closer to completion. I mean yes, glaringly game-breaking bugs should be fixed ASAP (and usually are in my experience), but IMO there's not much point in taking up valuable development time in fixing certain bugs that will just inevitably end up being replaced with new ones caused by future features.

Of course, I'm not sure what particular bugs you have in mind so I can't absolutely say where I think they should fall in terms of priorities.