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Author Topic: Dwarf Therapist v42.1.5 | DF 50.12  (Read 399707 times)

chris_v

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1080 on: December 09, 2022, 08:46:25 pm »


You may also be interested in this perspective on the new labor system: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zg0spw/please_try_to_use_the_new_labor_system_the_way/
[/quote]

I read this and I disagree. I think it is more a statement of wishful thinking than the actual state of the game. It is really nice to think that dwarves would themselves choose the best dwarf to do each task but in practice this does not happen. Maybe there is code that says if multiple dwarves are eligible for a job the one with the highest skill gets it, but what happens in practice is that dwarves are busy doing all kinds of stuff and when a new job comes up, the right dwarf is usually busy doing something else. So the wrong dwarf gets the job. The right dwarf then finishes doing his unrelated work, but by then the wrong dwarf is already busy doing the job that is wrong for him. Of course what you want is for the job to be left unfilled until the right dwarf becomes free.

What is most frustrating is that this is just not how things would be done in reality. Granted it is difficult to speak of reality in fantasy game contest, but if you were in a similar real situation (say you were the chief of a medieval castle) would you have your expert leatherworker try to injure himself by chiseling out stone goblets while your expert stonecrafter is fumbling about trying to put a thread in a leatherworking needle with his fat strong stone crafting fingers? Tarn may say that it is bad to look at excel sheets but the reality is that any good leader already has an excel sheet in his mind of what every single one of his charges is good or bad at. And the fact that we as game players want to look at an actual table rather than memorize all of our dwarves names and faces and strengths and weaknesses is more due to the necessary time compression of game playing than anything else.
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Erendir

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1081 on: December 10, 2022, 05:41:06 am »

Quote
You may also be interested in this perspective on the new labor system: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/zg0spw/please_try_to_use_the_new_labor_system_the_way/

I read this and I disagree. I think it is more a statement of wishful thinking than the actual state of the game. It is really nice to think that dwarves would themselves choose the best dwarf to do each task but in practice this does not happen. Maybe there is code that says if multiple dwarves are eligible for a job the one with the highest skill gets it, but what happens in practice is that dwarves are busy doing all kinds of stuff and when a new job comes up, the right dwarf is usually busy doing something else. So the wrong dwarf gets the job. The right dwarf then finishes doing his unrelated work, but by then the wrong dwarf is already busy doing the job that is wrong for him. Of course what you want is for the job to be left unfilled until the right dwarf becomes free.

What is most frustrating is that this is just not how things would be done in reality. Granted it is difficult to speak of reality in fantasy game contest, but if you were in a similar real situation (say you were the chief of a medieval castle) would you have your expert leatherworker try to injure himself by chiseling out stone goblets while your expert stonecrafter is fumbling about trying to put a thread in a leatherworking needle with his fat strong stone crafting fingers? Tarn may say that it is bad to look at excel sheets but the reality is that any good leader already has an excel sheet in his mind of what every single one of his charges is good or bad at. And the fact that we as game players want to look at an actual table rather than memorize all of our dwarves names and faces and strengths and weaknesses is more due to the necessary time compression of game playing than anything else.

I'm pretty sure point 6 of that reddit post
Quote
Utilize specialization! That green icon with the little hammer on it on the unit and labor screen means "this dwarf will do every job that everybody does". If you click it, it becomes red, which means that dwarf will do only the work assigned to them, e.g. your miner will only mine and do no other labor. Again, one click!
is the answer to your "expert leatherworker"-problem. Maybe combined with another click ("only assigned do this").

Also, I'm pretty sure this new system is coming to the Classic version too, so, brace yourself.
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zeves

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1082 on: December 10, 2022, 10:11:59 am »

Good luck to those working on updating DT, i do miss it greatly.
Im not sure i can play this new version, it is so cumbersome and difficult to get an overview.
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oasis789

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1083 on: December 11, 2022, 01:29:46 am »

also hoping for DT to return for .50, I can probably adapt to the new labor assignment system over time but going through individual dwarves screens in game is too much of a headache.
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Starver

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1084 on: December 11, 2022, 02:49:59 am »

...I happen to like micromanagement. Before DT became a thing (and then whilst I became aware of it bscom8ng a thing) I would manually maintain multi-sheet spreadsheets, doing a subset of what DT was eventually capable of doing for me (semi-automatically) but with no less spreadsheet-like fun and additional responsiveness and with its more advanced analytical capabilities. I could play without it, but it's not the same without the opportunity to (if I so choose!) get into the nitty gritty.

Like,  I typically used Corpse Hauling as an unofficial flag (initially to identify those of the latest of migrants that I hadn't perused yet, as everyone I perused had it disabled as a final act after any other adjustments - should I actually need corpses hauling, I can flip that on again for all suitable haulers for the short time necessary). I also do use the Nickname system like that (to mnemonically indicate what aspirations, or lack thereof, I have for each member of the fort), so I could perhaps do without one of my methods, but at inconvenience.

No doubt I can handily make it than any pick-axe wielders had mining (and were the only ones with mining) and absolutely nothing else to distract them, from what I hear. But that's so trivial to implement at 'present' (pre-Steam, with DT as a bonus) as I play it. Couldn't be much easier, I imagine, under the new system.

Probably I can immediately* prevent anyone arriving who thinks they are a fisherdwarf or hunter from then actually going fishing or hunting (with all the attendent problems that I'm trying to avoid). ((* - Or, if I don't feel like having to have a hauler wander out to the edge of the map for dropped quiver and crossbow (which is likely to be the ex-Hunter's again when I enroll them in marksdwarf bootcamp) I can make the change just as they move inside my fort but before they regain 'free will' post-migrant status.))

Perhaps it's even trivial to find a dwarf with a penchant for marble (say) and nudge them towards stoneworking in either of the two main forms, regardless of the skill-levels/lack of them that they initially possess. I'll accept suboptimality in exchange for MAT-biases that might become very useful later on when they're significantly beyond Dabbling.

But this is just a subset of my desire to micromanage (often with just a few short clicks in DT, even as the 251st (or whatever) dwarf arrives in the latest embarrassingly large migrant wave, which I take as tacit indicator that I've been doing things more or less right all this time) and while I'm not above using some preset "player zero" adjustments, I would derive less pleasure if it became too much of a dumbed-down game.  The ASCII-like nature of the interface might have been intimidating to some, and the mnemonics behind the hotkey assignments used might seem a little obscure (there was a logic to it, once you thought about it), but the success/doomed-to-failedness of a fort shouldn't ride on what might be quite drastic changes to the management system. Especially not (adversely) the bits apparently added to divorce the player from optional micromanagement.

When I eventually take my chance, I'll give it a go. I'm thinking that'll be post-New Year (for various reasons, not least that I need to plausibly spare the time to get sucked in, if I indeed am going to be) which may yet be ahead of proper DT support. But I've always got spreadsheets! ;)
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Clément

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1085 on: December 11, 2022, 05:45:57 am »

The labor array is still there in the game internal structures. But it may not be a good idea to edit it directly, as I expect the game to update the labors based on work details at some point and overwriting all your decisions made in DT. So I think DT will have to manage work details instead of labors.

From what I understand, you should be able to reimplement the old system with work details. Create one work detail for each labor and either set all dwarves as specialist or every work detail as "Only selected do this". Then use the work details as you would have the labors before.

Also, Toady may say he doesn't like spreadsheet but he wasn't far from creating one.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1086 on: December 11, 2022, 11:44:58 am »

I don’t have the Steam version, so I can only comment on my experiences with earlier version.  That being said, I only ever used DT for the following things:

  • Turning my beginning fisherdwarf into a second miner at embark.
  • Determining who should become nobles.
  • Enabling a specific labor on one or more dwarves after I noticed something wasn’t getting done.
  • Determining who should be in the military.
  • Making sure that I only had one active woodcutter (I’m trying to remember why; I think it might’ve been to mitigate some kind of bug…).
  • Marking animals to be butchered (would probably use it to mark them for gelding too, but I’ve never actually tried gelding yet).
  • Determining who amongst any incoming migrants is a vampire (I start my fortresses at year 125 when none of the classic bloodsucker tells have had time to develop yet…).

Anyways, that’s what comes to mind, right now.

Edit:  Just remembered another item for the list…
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 11:47:48 am by A_Curious_Cat »
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chris_v

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1087 on: December 11, 2022, 11:49:16 am »

For some reason there is only a limited amount of work details in DF. I think I read that there are only eight of them. But I think what I want to do can be done with work details in combination with workshop orders. Workshops can be limited to one or more dwarves, so that is something one can use to limit the labors to dwarves that have skills in those labors. But boy it is all going to be very unnecessarily complicated.

You said " I expect the game to update the labors based on work details at some point and overwriting all your decisions made in DT." Do you think that may happen even if one avoids the work details screen like the plague?

Thank you for looking into this, Clement.

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denadan

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1088 on: December 11, 2022, 12:46:36 pm »

Quote
For some reason there is only a limited amount of work details in DF. I think I read that there are only eight of them
steam version? few basic labors at start and you can add plenty custom ones. they have icons of rome I - VIII but repeat after first 8. dont checked how many you can add but used over 24 in my game(number start repeat 4th time)

quick dirty hack suggestion - made custom labors for each skill and assign them
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Clément

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1089 on: December 11, 2022, 12:52:18 pm »

  • Turning my beginning fisherdwarf into a second miner at embark.
  • Making sure that I only had one active woodcutter (I’m trying to remember why; I think it might’ve been to mitigate some kind of bug…).
Those are easy to do with the in-game interface. The first has always been easy because you have few dwarves at embark. The second has been improved with the new interface: "labors" → "woodcutters", the current woodcutters if any are at the top of the list.

  • Determining who should become nobles.
  • Determining who should be in the military.
Looking at dwarves details is still annoying. Maybe even more than before, the unit keep closing when I open a unit information window.

  • Marking animals to be butchered (would probably use it to mark them for gelding too, but I’ve never actually tried gelding yet).
I did not look at animal management yet. I don't think it has changed much.

For some reason there is only a limited amount of work details in DF. I think I read that there are only eight of them.
You can add custom ones, but their icons are roman numeral that don't help you remember what you put in them.

You said " I expect the game to update the labors based on work details at some point and overwriting all your decisions made in DT." Do you think that may happen even if one avoids the work details screen like the plague?
I'll try that when I'll try updating DT. Right now, I can only say that labors are updated whenever you toggle something in the labor screen, no need to close it.



I've looked in more details on how labors and work details are related. Here is what I know.

Most built-in work details have exactly one labor, except for Haulers (all labors from the Hauling category) and Orderlies (Suturing, Dressing Wounds, Feed Patients, Recovering Wounded).

Tool-requiring labors (Mining, Woodcutting, Hunting) are not available for custom work details. Built-in Miners, Woodcutters, Hunters work details are not exclusive (the labors used to, is this a bug?). A dwarf with several of them enabled will only pick up one of the tool and won't be able to perform the other tasks.

Enabled labors for a given dwarf are:
  • All labors from assigned work details that are not disabled ("Nobody does this")
  • If not a specialist, all labors from work details set to "Everybody does this"
  • If not a specialist, all labors that are not part of any work details
That last point means that creating new work details will disable labors from non-specialist.
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Melax

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1090 on: December 11, 2022, 04:50:02 pm »

I also would like to have a compatible version of DT :)

I think the new ingame system works quiet well (can be improved by DT a lot of course) - but as an overview DT was always a godsend.

So maybe a "overview-only" version of DT without the possiblity to change gamestats would be an early solution untill the more complex things are worked on?

thanks for your hard work Cément
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Bumber

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1091 on: December 11, 2022, 08:07:14 pm »

thanks for your hard work Cément

DT wouldn't be concrete without him. :P
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Putnam

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1092 on: December 11, 2022, 10:43:16 pm »

I also would like to have a compatible version of DT :)

I think the new ingame system works quiet well (can be improved by DT a lot of course) - but as an overview DT was always a godsend.

So maybe a "overview-only" version of DT without the possiblity to change gamestats would be an early solution untill the more complex things are worked on?

thanks for your hard work Cément

Unfortunately, the overview bits aren't any less complicated than adjusting. In fact, adjusting stuff is exactly as hard: the hard part is finding where the stuff is to begin with, not with figuring out how to write it.

Clément

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1093 on: December 12, 2022, 05:59:03 am »

It is easier to not support work details than to support them. There will likely be at some point a version without work details support and labor changes disabled.

And figuring out how to write thing is difficult in DT, while finding where the stuff is is mostly done by other people (easier for me, but not for them).
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Alyfox

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Re: Dwarf Therapist v41.2.4 | DF 0.47.05
« Reply #1094 on: December 15, 2022, 02:27:35 pm »

Quote
For some reason there is only a limited amount of work details in DF. I think I read that there are only eight of them
steam version? few basic labors at start and you can add plenty custom ones. they have icons of rome I - VIII but repeat after first 8. dont checked how many you can add but used over 24 in my game(number start repeat 4th time)

quick dirty hack suggestion - made custom labors for each skill and assign them

this is what I have been doing and its tedious having to do it with each new embark >_> I am really hoping DT will eventually come for this version
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