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How should workshops be handled?

By zones
- 2 (9.1%)
By zones + tools
- 14 (63.6%)
The way they are now
- 2 (9.1%)
The way they are now + tools
- 4 (18.2%)
Other
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 22


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Author Topic: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)  (Read 559 times)

UristMcArmok

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Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« on: November 30, 2017, 06:53:06 pm »

I’ve been thinking of the different ways the proposed transfer of workshops to zones (much like hospitals). I think this was mentioned in a podcast or future of the fortress.

[Item Placement]
Instead of just a “kitchen” you would designate a kitchen zone, then fill it with the appropriate items (I’d say a table or two, a bin, and a vat/barrel at bare minimum). You could possible add twice the amount of items and this would allow two dwarves to work in the zone instead of just one. There should also be a “free space” counter that works similarly to a taverns “dance floor”. The larger the free space, the more items it could hold before getting cluttered.


This next one may complicate things a bit but I think it would be a nice touch; when dwarves need to do a certain task, they use different items place on the zone. Say they’re cooking a meal, they use the table for meats/vegi, then they move over to the barrel if there is also powders/liquids in the reaction. Or for smithing a sword, they could start by standing near the coals/furnace (heating the metal) then move over to the anvil (shaping) then over to a vat/barrel of water (cooling) and then to a millstone (just for flavor) to sharpen the blade. These stages could be specified in the raws with a token to tell the dwarf what item they should be adjacent to like:
[STAGE:1:ITEM:ITEM_TOOL_BARREL]


[Tool use and Durability]
Tools such as the Boning knife, or carving fork aren’t really used, with the exception of angry citizens in adv mode. I want these to be implemented in fort mode as required reagents in reactions. For a kitchen, you would need slicing/boning/butcher knives when cooking meat, slicing when cooking vegi, and ladles when cooking with liquids (unsure about powders). Forges could require an anvil, tongs, a hammer, a firesafe barrel (for the hot coals) another barrel of any material (for the water) and perhaps a bellows or bin for the ingots. With tools implemented the hospital could also use a cleaver, bone saw, sewing needles, or mallet (for reshaping bones when broken or for diagnosis) the tools required could be specified in the raws as needed (i.e. only needing a ladle when liquids are being cooked/ if cooking a roast, you should need a carving fork)


As of right now, things such as pickaxes are indestructible (unless used in combat) no matter what material it’s made from. A copper pixaxe would probably break within the year, while a steel one might last for over a decade or more. This would incentivize using high quality materials and good smithies when making what would be normally unchanged by quality or material. I’d personally like it if tools slowly wore away (the time this takes could be calculated via item properties) including things like anvils and chains (causing mechanical malfunction if using poorly made items or with soft/brittle materials)


I know some of you are thinking “but if I use a steel knife, it shouldn’t break from cutting meat”
True, but even the hardest knives chip or dull overtime. If you’re using well made tools, they will need to be replaced far less often. Things with perfect values like adamantine or modded metals would last nearly forever.


I’d love to hear your suggestions or ways this could be reasonable implemented
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sethtnt

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 07:10:34 pm »

I think that there are a few pro's and cons with this way of creating things. First there is how much stuff you would need just to have a functioning kitchen, which would mean you'd have to embark with a bunch of different things. This won't amount to all the much, but when you try to have a fort with more than just a kitchen it would leave you dependent on either finding ore quickly.
As for wear on tools, I'm all in for it. It's something we've been needing so that forts don't just run on the same 4 pickaxes through the whole however many years you want to insert here that they have existed. There should be ways to take care of them though, such as mentioned above mill stones (Giving them more than flavor). Scholars discovering things could tie in at some point, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
A combination of building and zone would be a good way to implement this, having said building being less than what they are currently, but with you being able to have the things in the zone to improve the workshop. Or you could ditch the workshop, that fine too. Either way, having all the tools that a work area can have shouldn't be necessary, it should improve the quality of said products though. For example, having just a way to heat the metal and an anvil you could in theory make a sword. It won't be a very good sword and you'd use quite a bit a fuel making it, but still, it's there. Not that it will do much else.
Small differences though such as between slicing and boning knives though should probably matter less, having the bigger things should be more important, with smaller things being for the perfectionist. (Which we'll probably all go for)
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WolframHydroxide

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 07:18:30 pm »

If every workshop was like setting up a hospital zone when I started playing, I would have dropped this game like it was at 15000 degrees urist. If toady wants to continue to attract a player base, he needs to work towards broadening the possibilities without severely impacting how playable the game is, and whereas things like being able to place each individual part wherever you want and needing tools present in every workshop made great additions to minecraft, I don't think dwarf fortress has the UI capability to handle them smoothly. Tool durability is good, though

« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 07:21:47 pm by WolframHydroxide »
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UristMcArmok

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 07:23:34 pm »

Either way, having all the tools that a work area can have shouldn't be necessary, it should improve the quality of said products though. For example, having just a way to heat the metal and an anvil you could in theory make a sword. It won't be a very good sword and you'd use quite a bit a fuel making it, but still, it's there. Not that it will do much else.
Small differences though such as between slicing and boning knives though should probably matter less, having the bigger things should be more important, with smaller things being for the perfectionist. (Which we'll probably all go for)

Yes, some basic reactions such as (make meal) or (make wooden [tool]) wouldn’t Require tools to preform, but the quality of the produced goods would be shoddy at best, maybe even starting out with a small amount of wear if the craftsdwarf isn’t very skilled. Maybe a -2 quality level to what the product would have been. (Making a sword without tools that would have been quality-less, is now xXswordXx
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 07:39:31 pm »

If every workshop was like setting up a hospital zone when I started playing, I would have dropped this game like it was at 15000 degrees urist. If toady wants to continue to attract a player base, he needs to work towards broadening the possibilities without severely impacting how playable the game is, and whereas things like being able to place each individual part wherever you want and needing tools present in every workshop made great additions to minecraft, I don't think dwarf fortress has the UI capability to handle them smoothly. Tool durability is good, though
Since replacing workshops with more zone-like areas is already planned, now's a good time to contribute to threads like this one with your idea of what kind of interface df needs to make them accessible to beginners.

Some of us have no idea what people find complicated about hospitals (except back when they were bugged, of course). Select area, push 'h'? Dwarves already know what tools are required in each zone, you never have to think about that.
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KittyTac

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 08:10:21 pm »

This is planned AFAIK.
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Hugo_The_Dwarf

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 09:00:52 pm »

I'd say the zone itself will allow for the jobs to be done there. Much like a tavern, you can set it up but you don't really need the furniture, it just works better if you do.

Much like was already discussed, someone taking a boulder to a "masonry" zone that has nothing may not only take that dwarf a long time to shape this huge rock with his bare hands and beard, but the quality will be shoddy. Add in a hammer and chisel and the speed and quality increases, start adding tables and chairs makes them not grumpy about leaning over/standing while they work (aka more comfy, more speed/quality) and also mentioned larger areas + more tools/required furniture could allow more that 1 dwarf in that area. This makes it more interesting than making a crap ton of 3x3 workshops that they stand in the middle. Watching a dwarf wander around the workshop getting various tools for the stages of their work, gumbling about someone using the damn hammer. And the ability to simply "select" the zone and increase the size (perhaps like barrows, you can just paint what tiles are for the workshop instead of the preset rec/flow and hope for the best/remake it)

And being able to combine zones/group them would be great too. Say placing looms and some other threading tools you can have both the Loom and clothier's workshop area the same, just add the required furniture and tools, making the fuss of "I need this workshop for XYZ, now time to build 4 others" you just have a zone and set it up accordingly.

Only thing would be how would custom workshops fit in? Do they remain as specialized buildings? and if that's the case what vanilla buildings would remain specialized? Glass Furnace? Smelter? And would they more or less be solo or can contribute to a zones effectiveness (placing a few furnaces/smelters makes the metalsmithy zone better/unlocks new actions)

And with that custom reactions, would it be at a building or setup that it requires a skill, and then optionally tools/custom buildings.

So would "workshops" simply become "advanced" furniture and custom reactions simply just upgrade the zone to allow those tasks.

Which brings to make it easier, just have 1 zone type "workzone" and what's in it allows what type (or has options like a stockpile, for at least vanilla labors) much like how we have "gather zones" for fruit, plants.
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LordBaal

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 06:32:06 am »

WolframHydroxide, are you really suggesting complexity might turn df players off?????
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KittyTac

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 06:33:36 am »

WolframHydroxide, are you really suggesting complexity might turn df players off?????

Yeah, it won't. Might turn some newbies off, but the community won't care.
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deathpunch578

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 11:15:38 am »

Allow me to throw my two cents into this thread.
I think there should be both workshops and zones with the addition of tools.
for an example lets use the still, the still will produce the ever important booze for a dwarf but the brewing zone will be useless unless there are tools. the zone will be much better than the still but will involve more micro-managing (tool upkeep, ingredient supply upkeep, etc.)
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Bumber

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 05:15:04 pm »

Allow me to throw my two cents into this thread.
I think there should be both workshops and zones with the addition of tools.
for an example lets use the still, the still will produce the ever important booze for a dwarf but the brewing zone will be useless unless there are tools. the zone will be much better than the still but will involve more micro-managing (tool upkeep, ingredient supply upkeep, etc.)
>Implying workshops wouldn't need tools.
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deathpunch578

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 08:31:39 pm »

Allow me to throw my two cents into this thread.
I think there should be both workshops and zones with the addition of tools.
for an example lets use the still, the still will produce the ever important booze for a dwarf but the brewing zone will be useless unless there are tools. the zone will be much better than the still but will involve more micro-managing (tool upkeep, ingredient supply upkeep, etc.)
>Implying workshops wouldn't need tools.
a dwarf doesn't need tools to make a block of stone, he just crushes it into a block with his bare hands.
bad jokes aside I feel things like the mason's workshop could be used without tools but can use some tools of the mason's work-zone but the zone can use bigger tools and be more efficient (a mason's workshop can use a hammer but the mason's work-zone can use tables allowing more dwarves to work at once)
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 05:12:30 am »

If every workshop was like setting up a hospital zone when I started playing, I would have dropped this game like it was at 15000 degrees urist. If toady wants to continue to attract a player base, he needs to work towards broadening the possibilities without severely impacting how playable the game is
Since replacing workshops with more zone-like areas is already planned, now's a good time to contribute to threads like this one with your idea of what kind of interface df needs to make them accessible to beginners.

I think the best way is to, literally, replace workshops with zones--during the game.

At embark, workshops would be placed exactly as they are now, needing nothing but a couple of stones/blocks, a barrel here & there, maybe an anvil. Bare-bones stuff, with little concern for efficiency and none for ergonomics. But once built, each workshop would also have two new options: Augment Workshop and Expand Zone.
  • Augment Workshop would display a list of things that could be added to complement that particular type of workshop, creating a demand for things like cauldrons, hand tools, coffers & cabinets to store those tools, more cabinets to hold dishes, chairs, etc. Selecting a type of item to add to a workshop--a pair of shears, for instance--would bring up a list of all the shears in the fort that are not currently claimed by another workshop (or possibly an individual dwarf). Satisfying each "requirement" of each shop would slightly increase its speed/quality, yet these "requirements" would still be completely optional, for ease in setup.
  • Expand Zone would allow you to define the size of the workshop; from 3x3 (which should probably be the minimum) to something like 10x10, or even 20x20 if there seems to be demand for that. Enlarging the zone would confer three benefits: The increased floor space itself would allow more storage (thus reducing the effect of clutter), it would allow the work"shop" to be staffed by more than one dwarf at a time (each new non-overlapping 2x2 area would permit 1 additional worker--at least, once a table is installed there through the Augment Workshop menu), and it would allow tools to be shared between workshops (If a Butcher's Shop and a Kitchen are built close to each other, expanding each zone to enclose the other shop would allow dwarves to borrow knives back & forth).
This suggestion does not allow for core workshop items (like a Forge's anvil) to be broken out of their original placement & moved to another spot in the new, enlarged work zone, but that seems to be of negligible benefit in any case.
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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 06:25:24 am »

I just want all workshops to work like hospital zones do. What's so complex about that? You just designate an area as the <whatever> zone, and put the things dwarves need to do <whatever> there. It's simple, logical, and realistic. How do I know where the kitchen is in my house? Because that's where the oven is. Why is the oven there? Because the architect designated that as the kitchen room.

Sometimes I wonder about the people who complain about these things...
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LordBaal

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Re: Workshops as zones (and tool use/durability)
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 09:14:20 am »

I know rigth? It's simple and introduces greater flexibility.

People complain about possible lack of tools and what about picks? Dwarves currently don't dig with their hands. Or axes?

Tools would be the same however given that you could in theory make crude tools with sticks and stones and from those make better tools with which you would make even better tools, and and so on isn't that farfetched to make a workshop area with only a chair and a table and simply have most jobs either inaccessible or just really really slow.

As more proper tools are assigned to the workshop more jobs open or are done faster and/or better.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:30:14 pm by LordBaal »
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