Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Force bending  (Read 6459 times)

thvaz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2020, 09:47:48 pm »

While somewhat realistic, force bending made combat completely random and totally frustrating. "Somewhat realistic" I say, because I don't know how many adventurers I had crippled by peasants biting my armor and the shaking leading to a broken bone...if it is unfinished, Toady, please consider removing it before fully balancing it, as it just ruining adventure mode as it is.
The game itself is unfinished. Should we just remove it until it's done and fully balanced some 20-30 years from now? Personally I'd rather play it, report weirdness and watch it grow over the next couple of decades.

The feature is in the game for years already, everyone has reported all the weirdness away and Toady never looked back into it again. I was in your position 10 years ago, saying the exact same things. However now I know that people are content to test the game only if they see results in a realistic timeline. Toady usually just put some unfinished feature, says he will come back at it, and just forgets about it while moving on with other features.
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2020, 10:35:30 pm »

While somewhat realistic, force bending made combat completely random and totally frustrating. "Somewhat realistic" I say, because I don't know how many adventurers I had crippled by peasants biting my armor and the shaking leading to a broken bone...if it is unfinished, Toady, please consider removing it before fully balancing it, as it just ruining adventure mode as it is.
The game itself is unfinished. Should we just remove it until it's done and fully balanced some 20-30 years from now? Personally I'd rather play it, report weirdness and watch it grow over the next couple of decades.

The feature is in the game for years already, everyone has reported all the weirdness away and Toady never looked back into it again. I was in your position 10 years ago, saying the exact same things. However now I know that people are content to test the game only if they see results in a realistic timeline. Toady usually just put some unfinished feature, says he will come back at it, and just forgets about it while moving on with other features.
You said "remove the unfinished feature". That's not the same as fixing it. "Remove" Dwarf Fortresses unfinished features and you're left without a game.
Logged

thvaz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2020, 11:24:42 pm »

While somewhat realistic, force bending made combat completely random and totally frustrating. "Somewhat realistic" I say, because I don't know how many adventurers I had crippled by peasants biting my armor and the shaking leading to a broken bone...if it is unfinished, Toady, please consider removing it before fully balancing it, as it just ruining adventure mode as it is.
The game itself is unfinished. Should we just remove it until it's done and fully balanced some 20-30 years from now? Personally I'd rather play it, report weirdness and watch it grow over the next couple of decades.
The feature is in the game for years already, everyone has reported all the weirdness away and Toady never looked back into it again. I was in your position 10 years ago, saying the exact same things. However now I know that people are content to test the game only if they see results in a realistic timeline. Toady usually just put some unfinished feature, says he will come back at it, and just forgets about it while moving on with other features.
You said "remove the unfinished feature". That's not the same as fixing it. "Remove" Dwarf Fortresses unfinished features and you're left without a game.

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. There are unfinished features that work well enough and there are those that don't.
Logged

peasant cretin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [MEANDERER][GNAWER]
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2020, 01:02:09 am »

For good or ill, DF has always been a game about working around the work arounds.

Armor was useful pre-43.xx, before the inclusion of force transfer to joints.

The min/max route for force bending/transfer is to filter all incoming attacks through Dodger and Shield User. You don't need to wrestle a squirrel in the woods to do this. Know the stat-comps and the buff/de-buff effect on roll to hits. In this case, the best risk-management choice does equal the best XP ladder choice.

IMO, aside from roleplay, parry XP=weapon XP is a waste. All defensive XP gain ideally goes to either Dodger or Shield User. And this is a pure gamey-game Pun Pun sorta POV, which is antithetical to reality simulation. But then that's how games are.

No matter a designer's ideal/spirit of the game, players will optimize. This was how the murderhobo was born and why often good designers game the player, and good players will game the game.



Logged

Rumrusher

  • Bay Watcher
  • current project : searching...
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2020, 05:08:24 am »

ok I had to re read what lead to this revival of this thread,
some peasant bit into an adventurer and sunder armor.
wait the issue was the peasant got into an alligator death roll on your adventurer's arm and broke it?
so it seems less like what these folks were talking about years ago with how their adventurers are too strong and can't spar(due to toady not adding a spar option to adventurer mode and added a scale of acceptable violence rating, even though one could dfhack toggle on sparring for the adventurer.) as their buff out huge muscles and strength will gib a random site fodder inhabitant ...I mean peasant with one punch.

like from that set up it seems like you're the villain in the scenario and someone got to heroically do a cool move on you to save their lives.
like also take into factor Which race the peasant was, like were you fighting a human peasant as a dwarf then the 10,000 size difference might put you into an disadvantage, then we get into Wrestling as biting legit goes into that if they shook your arm to it's breaking point. though it feels like DF is getting to the era where Knights are going out of style with possible means of creating high powered force range weapons that folks can mod into and or the new magical interactions where someone could look at you funny and melt your organs or give you animal organs, or fling you across the map with the power of force.


so here's a visual doodle of what I pictured the pose the peasant did to break that arm.
also after testing in arena yeah it seems wrestling beats armor so it less force attacks bypassing armor, and more wrestling bypassing armor.
the bite attack probably got deflected from the armor but still latched.
Logged
I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes

Sver

  • Bay Watcher
  • An army marches on its oiling and waxing
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2020, 03:25:45 pm »

Unarmed combat, especially biting, is incredibly overpowered and it is known. However there's no point for Toady to go over and tinker with that one feature individually, as it is part of a much, much larger damage system - as anyone attempting to mod the force bending out (or tune it down) would notice. It is not forgotten persay, rather it's put on the waiting list under the "Combat Rewrite" development arc. Until then, well...

The simplest solution is to remove [ATTACK_FLAG_CANLATCH] tag from any (or all) creatures and/or set every structural organic material's (skin, fat, muscle, bone, cartilage) TENSILE, TORSION and BENDING yield and fracture values to some insane degree (1000000000 is a good starting point). Preferably both. This will disable force bending pretty much completely and probably make lock-breaking limbs by wrestling impossible too.

Otherwise, there are mods (mine and Grimlocke's, of those I know) that fine tune this feature without removing it entirely.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 07:31:14 pm by Sver »
Logged
DF Combat Reworked
No overpowered force transfer, no easy life without a kidney, more functional variety among the weapons and other improvements.

Rumrusher

  • Bay Watcher
  • current project : searching...
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2020, 07:29:07 pm »

Unarmed combat, especially biting, is incredibly overpowered and it is known. However there's no point for Toady to go over and tinker with that one feature individually, as it is part of a much, much larger damage system - as anyone attempting to mod the force bending out (or tune it down) would notice. It is not forgotten persay, rather it's put on the waiting list under the "Combat Rewrite" development arc. Until then, well...

The simplest solution is to remove [ATTACK_FLAG_CANLATCH] tag from any (or all) creatures and/or set every structural organic material's (skin, fat, muscle, bone, cartilage) TENSILE, TORSION and BENDING yield and fracture values to some insane degree (1000000000 is a good starting point). Preferably both. This will disable force bending pretty much completely and probably make lock-breaking limbs by wrestling impossible too.

Otherwise, there are mod's (mine and Grimlocke's, of those I know) that fine tune this feature without removing it entirely.
also this is like this when fighting Similar size or smaller folks when you get into folks larger than you the damage and wrestling abilities start to taper off or you need alot more skill in wrestling to probably do any wrestle moves.
which is probably why I kinda shrug on the force stuff, I do remember toady messing with throwing light items and punching a bit.
though yeah peasant on the right track of none of the force stuff would matter if you don't let the attack hit but that's mostly building towards someone who knows what type of hit is coming and setting up means to prevent it from landing,
with wrestling you could stop off the bite attack from even landing by grabbing the limb.
though this is dipping into Dwarven martial arts and I guess that kinda makes the whole 'oh yeah there's a study on legit ways to unarmed strike folks with skill and grace with lil wounds now.' a thing than 'well pray and run away.'

Logged
I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes

Superdorf

  • Bay Watcher
  • Soothly we live in mighty years!
    • View Profile
Re: Force bending
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2020, 08:58:01 pm »

Obligatory Kisat Dur link :))
Logged
Falling angel met the rising ape, and the sound it made was

klonk
tormenting the player is important
Sigtext
Pages: 1 [2]