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Author Topic: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS  (Read 17494 times)

Frumple

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2017, 09:34:35 am »

Huh. Took a second to watch some gameplay of this.

...

The thing's a friggin' civ-style WC3/SC2 custom map, right down to upgrading the residential income buildings.

Not a bad thing, mind you, exactly. Engine et al actually being built for it has more or less always been one of the major fiddly bits of making those things, and it's not even remotely like the general design is unenjoyable or anything, especially since there's very little else on the market that really leans on fusing RTS and city building mechanics.

But.

It's still a friggin' WC3 custom map. More SC2 by way of lesser clunkiness, but... still.

I was joking when I said (maybe to myself, maybe somewhere around here, hell if I can remember these days) stuff about more near-future game development largely looking like someone shiftily looked around and then filched the design of those custom maps. But here is something that's shiftily (or maybe blatantly, I'unno what they've said was their design influences) looked around and filched the design of those things.

It's a good thing commercial gaming is finally catching up in places with amateur game design from like a decade ago, though, I guess?
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Tiruin

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2017, 11:10:43 am »

HO HOO! Great time for a thread like this :D I'm on my way to ace the Brutal (80 days) area on Desolate Wasteland (always preferring to play around 100%+)--and I'd love to share stuff I've learned by trial and error and natural observation (over and over again T_T)

1. All buildings require a 1 tile/square distance from each other, other than the Tesla Tower which can be placed anywhere. Only the Houses (of any type) can be placed adjacent to each other while following this rule with all other buildings. These apply for Military buildings (which includes all defense towers, so Walls and Gates of any type follow the Tesla Tower note).
**However, walls cannot be stacked 3 times in a row/column in a 3x3 square (they can be stacked 3 times in a cardinal direction, but diagonals seem to press the 'overlapping' limit). Gates count as ONE wall, and can easily fill the space (although their health, without Mayor-al modifiers, are about 1.5 of a wall [Wood gates are 600, compared to 400 of a wooden wall, and Stone gates are 1500, to 1000]

2. Sniper teams are like steampunk rifle-infantry. Much like our rifle infantry in the earliest days of the rifle where they all stood in line and order--they work well in lines and bunches, with the difference being all your steampunk snipers always hit their target.
I found them to be the most cost efficient and versatile of roles in numbers (as any infantry unit requires numbers to be useful). Other than Rangers, they outclass the Marine when massed (the Rangers serve excellent scout roles, guiding or rather 'attracting' all zombie types [other than the blasted Harpy, which is 1 speed faster]). The big point of the sniper is their 'long' attack animation, which translates more to their attack time. In between the time when they aim their big rifle, and them shooting: anything within range will be targeted, even if their original target has died. You can clear whole doom village areas with 20+ snipers. You may also see for yourself on this 'quick change' of attack targets, as they can easily one-hit most zombies.

3. The 'timer' difficulty that you pick does not mean the endgame will happen on that day. Usually eight days before that time, is when the "24 hour They Are BillionsTM" warning hits, and you get swarmed with exactly 4 main waves/hordes in the cardinal directions. All other defended areas (that you have) will also be hit with unmarked waves (the marked ones have a skull, much like all those tiny waves you faced in the months before) but those will be a lot lesser than the ones marked with skulls. Next, the skull-waves will ALWAYS follow a linear direction; they will not branch out or off, unless manually directed by you (eg Rangers), meaning static defenses won't attract them.

4. The Shock Tower pales in comparison to the Executor, when considering the wall layer ratio, and the cost effectiveness (especially at higher difficulties). It does around 100~ damage, which the Executor can do in the same, while the latter has greater range with less energy expenditure (but with a higher gold upkeep, at -50 each). You can upgrade the Ballista Tower to Executors, and having the Ballista tower can make up in their numbers and resource efficiency, alongside being 'markers' for Executors when need be. (Ballista towers are pretty cheap, and depending on the map, generally require only 2 workers and 2 Energy. And wood, which will not be that much of a used resource in mid-end game, compared to STONE).

5. Iron is the least utilized resource by most buildings and units you will mass produce.  Compared to Oil (which is more used for mechanized units), Iron is okay in low resource gain amounts, as most buildings that will be mass produced will not need it in the early game. The Advanced Mill, as I recall, will be the most used, using up 10 Iron and 500 gold, as of the 0.4.9 patch. Wood will be an early resource sink, which will be followed up by Stone, once you finish up the Stone Workshop and Foundry requirements. If you're worried about Quarry'ing an area for stone or iron, always pick stone--but at least ensure you have ONE place to get iron from the beginning (otherwise, reroll that map by making a new game; use rangers for early scouting).
Warehouses balance out farms and are the best symbiotic building with farms (as they balance out the # of tiles lost to either non-grass grounds, or your other buildings in the way). Farms are going to be your staple source of food in most maps from the earliest time you will unlock them in the Wood Workshop. Warehouses also aid Quarries as another highlight. This, and the Bank/Market, are prioritized buildings for colony construction planning.

The earliest time you will get attacked is by day 2, by singular zombies. Unlike many other RTS games, zombies are more 'true' to their concept--they won't path around defenses, but will attack head-on generally from their point of origin, so crescent-styled defense patterns (walls + towers/military towers), with open, undefended ends to the sides, work. Unless you are swarmed by many zombies. Which happens a lot.
Personally, at the early game/first week, I grab my 4 rangers and position 3 to make a perimeter around my City Hall, leaving the 1 marine behind, and scouting in a circle around my colony until I hit the "wall" of weak, 35 hp zombies, then I post a ranger to that area on patrol. This acts as the earliest defense for the first 2-3 weeks until you get enough resources to build up a soldier outpost, or make some wooden walls. That one marine, personally, stays back, but I have found the 'noise' issue being mostly irrelevant, as the noise seems more in context of 'attracting that dude 3 tiles away' rather than 'attract THEM OVER THERE'. I've tested this by shoving marines and snipers to shoot zombies next to doom villages, and they don't aggravate the village itself, but do attract those stragglers next to their targets being shot at; the same occurs outside of the doom village context, when fighting the static horde on your map. So to your personal playstyle, marines and other 'noisy' units can be played quite readily and easily.

Anything you do not kill before the end-wave at the endgame, will be part of the attack. This includes doom villages which will spew everything in them at you. These includes those Harpies and Venoms at the edge of the cardinal map directions. Beware that Harpies can jump walls--the mechanics of wall building actually help against them, as those mechanics enable 'naturally placed' gaps to trap those harpies!

Always rely on multiple layers of walls. Two walls next to each other may look intimidating, but you're facing hundreds of units that will breach through with their bodies, like a wave onto your colony, until all that is left is the salty taste of brine and blood. (Fun fact: No colonist really dies, they just get infected ._. )

As of the current patch, there may be pathing issues where zombies will forever do a moonwalk while facing a wall or cliff-face (but won't fall off u_u), or raised cliff, when they intend to attack your colony.

6. Titans, at least as of 0.4.9, seem less effective and efficient compared to the Thanatos (I've noticed in the past, Titans did not require Oil, and so were mass produced). The Thanatos has an area-of-effect which deals minimal damage to Stone or Wood walls/gates, hits multiple zombies, and they work great in tandem with other units. Back to #2, Snipers in towers provide excellent support fire, as their Veteran counterpart means 110 damage every second (because 0.91 attack speed per second is rounded off for clarity :P), and their range means they are the best unit (as of the moment probably?) to place in towers in supporting your final line of defense. I've never used the Lucifer (I have, then I found out they aren't that effective, and light everything on fire, meaning 'also your units and buildings' in their short range), so what came to mind was 'build the defense around the Lucifer'. Personally, I've found Thanatos teams being very effective in tandem; their rockets 'push' back and kill incoming waves, and I've made a setup of at least 2 Thanatos per tiny chokepoint, to at most 6.

7. Construct your defensive lines to fill any and all gaps, but pay attention to where the 'earlier' hordes/waves attacked as those areas where they spawned and attacked from are usually (at least in my many experiences) where the final waves will attack from. In the end-game, use wood walls inasmuch as stone walls; the 'upgrade' cost balances the cost if you had built and paid for stone walls instead (except you have used wood, and will not get that wood back, when upgrading from wood to stone walls/gates)

8. Mayors are picked by the RNG. You get random ones, but there seems to be some kind of pattern to what category or theme of bonus they usually give at certain times (the time of progress to 'endgame' does not appear to matter, just the population needed to hit the next mayor). In my experience, I've found certain themes in the different mayor slots (or 'tiers'). Initial ones (tier 1), seem to be either resource boosters or additional soldier types. Second Mayors (tier 2), seem to be building/defense boosters. Third Mayors (tier 3), seem to be army/research modifiers (e.g. I've had a Mayor choice which had me pick 'less upkeep for Thanatos or Lucifer'...in my first ever game, since this doesn't have a tutorial--I've no idea what they were even referring to!). Fourth Mayors seem to be a higher upgrade of the earlier tiers, or just 'bonus reserve resources/have this research' which appear in any tier. As of the moment, you may even get 'useless' mayors--those that give you the research that you already have!
In all tiers, there are mayors who will give extra 'reserves' (which does not mean 'extra storage space', but 'more resources in reserve', and they will not translate to 'sold market resources//autosold resources' if those resources go over your limit). Currently, you CANNOT exit from the mayor screen for 'I'll decide your election later thank you!', as of 0.4.9, and you will be forced to pick their fancy steampunk victorian face. :'(
Also cosmetically, you pick from either a female or male leader. Their bonuses matter more though. :P

Also if the mayor you get has the 'the colony gets: {x}', this includes research AND the unit, if it is a unit.

9. As of 0.4.9, there are some...strange UI bugs. Like when directing your battle-army units, there sometimes is a popup when moving your mouse to 'garrison' in a tower, even when you're away (in both screen and mouse) from any tower. Sometimes the selection pops back to a different building than what you're selecting, and there are some occurrences of random damage out of nowhere to random buildings. (e.g. I had a cottage, part of the first ones I've built, get 100 damage out of nowhere)
This may also apply to Blade/Spike traps. I've used them once when 'bored' (had more time than usual, because by day 60, I usually end up going in a resource boom on all fronts due to economic focus). I set up a line of blade traps right next to my overly walled defenses, and strangely some of them were getting periodic damage (akin to being 'used' by zombies, sans the zombies). There went any use of those traps at this patch, because of both their high price of construction (Those traps cost 100 gold each), although this is to my personal playstyle. I never use them because I can never find myself filling up my gold storage to the maximum! :P
...Although that strange damage bug also stopped me, by giving a bad initial impression.

10. Doom villages get grumpy and usually send a 'chubby' (600 hp zombie which smashes 40 damage into your folks) if you build too close to them. Attacking a building 'squishes' zombies out of it like water from a squeezed sponge, alongside angering a ton of them, which is usually disaster in the end-game.

11? I'd love to see more female units. :P I'm having a ton of fun using Rangers, as their utility will never fade. They are also the only unit who does not have a food cost (every 'infantry' unit requires at least 1 worker, upkeep, and 1 food, sans the ranger, which only needs 1 worker and upkeep. The Marine and Sniper requires -3 and -5 upkeep respectively, emphasizing my point about sniper efficiency in this current patch [0.4.9]).
The Marine is probably the cheeriest and most respectful unit (the Ranger is snarky, the Sniper sounds too attracted to heads, the Lucifer loves fire, the Thanatos is all-around badass, and the Titan is pretty high-classy and loves the weather).
"For the Colony! For the Humans! Good day, Commander!"

I'm just loving the voice lines at this early stage of game. I like how the words of respect are said by these folks. :P

Oh, also on my clunky old computer/laptop, this game runs like a charm :D There is seemingly no change of FPS when I pause or unpause the game, so I assume what the developers said about their game engine supporting all those units makes sense.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 07:52:56 am by Tiruin »
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Retropunch

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2017, 06:47:40 pm »

The thing's a friggin' civ-style WC3/SC2 custom map, right down to upgrading the residential income buildings.

Hmm whilst I know what you mean, this is far, far superior to the custom maps. It just feels so much better put together generally - the feel is spot on and it feels so...snappy playing it. It runs 1000s of units without a problem on my old laptop. Yeah, old SC2 and WC3 had similar modes, but it's just the same as saying SC ripped off C&C ripped off TA ripped off etc. etc.

I'm also hoping they keep expanding on it (which they say they are). It could use more units and buildings - especially some 'decision' buildings where you get one or another and that sort of thing

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT
Anyone playing this or thinking of playing it needs to be aware that as the maps are randomly generated, some are way, way better than others. I had one yesterday that was just completely unfair - I had one massive open entrance, and two routes into the base which were two and one square, snaking lines (which are incredibly difficult to defend). I had barely any rock and no iron near my base - it was almost impossible. I played another one after I lost that one and had everything I needed and an easily defensible position.

So don't be afraid to restart if you're in a rubbish location!
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2017, 09:53:17 pm »

Technically you can buy metal so you weren't *doomed*, but, ah yeah.  Very bad spawn.  Personally I had one map where I started next to two MASSIVE villages of doom.  A chubby zombie chased a ranger back into the base on day 8 :'(  I had another map that was very open yet had almost no food.  I think that in moorlands on the base difficulty most maps would be winnable for someone with 500 hours of play (read: not me).  I don't think my maps or your map would be winnable at all with the brutal difficulties, even for a godlike player.

Re: balance, I expect snipers to get nerfed.  Their cost and health are too similar to the soldier for a unit that's way better against the special zombies and little worse against the commons.  I've never felt safe enough to seriously test any of them, the startup costs are intimidating and some rules are unclear (particularly how friendly fire and armor work.

In regards to shock towers, I think they're better than ballistas and executors by far.  All those buildings take 4 tiles, have a very low health-per-tile, and produce a couple fast zombies when they die.  Plus obviously they can't retreat and you can't demolish them once the zombies are in.  Stone tower full of snipers does the same thing with none of the weaknesses.
 Shock towers have those weaknesses, but... they have one advantage not explained by their description.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Frumple

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2017, 10:44:05 pm »

Hmm whilst I know what you mean, this is far, far superior to the custom maps. It just feels so much better put together generally - the feel is spot on and it feels so...snappy playing it. It runs 1000s of units without a problem on my old laptop. Yeah, old SC2 and WC3 had similar modes, but it's just the same as saying SC ripped off C&C ripped off TA ripped off etc. etc.
Eeehhh... more like Brood War ripped off Starcraft, at least from what I've been seeing. Actually probably closer to something like RA vs Tiberian Sun (or either of those and RA2, I guess)... base SC and its expansion are a bit too similar.

The biggest departures I've seen are basically all engine; better performance, stuff not being kludged to, say, have buildings need to be near power nodes to work, etc. Definitely looks like it plays better so far as performance and UI built specifically for it and whatnot goes, but the major thing holding back those old maps has always been that side of things, rather than much so far as the mechanics involved are concerned.

Mechanics/gameplay wise, just about all of it I've seen before, far as I can recall mostly in the same place a few times, too. Survival style wave stuff was pretty uncommon, if existent, but the rest of it is pretty much bullet point late stage WC3/SC2 city builder/civ style design.* I'd definitely say it's not nearly as different as SC vs C&C vs TA (particularly TA), heh, but... maybe during some of the notable-but-not-seriously-major breakpoints in the C&C series. First one/RA/TS, RA 2, C&C/RA 3, etc.

Which, uh. Dunno if I've said it before, but for all the similarities strike me real hard in this case,** folks lifting some of the better WC3/SC2 maps, either explicitly or by yoinking great swathes of the design common to particular strains of 'em, isn't something I mind, per se. Particularly when it's actually riffing on some of the more interesting ones, as opposed to yet another DotA style AoS riffs. It's just been hella' easy to spot the relation in the case of this game, to the point it's been a bit distracting while watching gameplay vids :V

* Though, note again, just to really reiterate it, don't take that as being a bad thing, exactly. The biggest downside those maps had was the engine not being specifically built for that style of play. Tab here being built more or less ground up for it totally means it's a major improvement over what was managed with the WC3/SC2 engines, and to all appearances a pretty damn decent one regardless.

** You have no idea how much the ranger/soldier starting pair hits me right in the night elf archer/space marine ranged unit norms of WC3 maps, ferex :P Right down to the character models being suspiciously similar. That more than just about anything I've seen so far makes me think the game is a very much intentional homage.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2017, 12:59:32 am »

The sprite art in this game is beautiful.  The death animations are so well done that I thought some of my snipers' kills were physics based ragdolls and it took me hours to make the connection that they couldn't be.  And I knew in advance this is sprite art mind you.

Edit: Although, looking at it, it might be pictures of 3D art.  I'm not sure.  If it is they modified it by hand because 3D shaders don't normally give such distinct lines and highlights.

Double edit: Looking at the Tesla Tower, I'm pretty sure that's a snapshot of a 3D model.  No one would have bothered to animate that by hand.  Still, neat way to save processing power and still have a game that looks to my eyes pretty modern.  Reminds me of Don't Starve or Darkest Dungeon.  Granted, I never played WC, so maybe if I had I'd know what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 01:09:08 am by EnigmaticHat »
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Tiruin

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 07:46:34 am »

** You have no idea how much the ranger/soldier starting pair hits me right in the night elf archer/space marine ranged unit norms of WC3 maps, ferex :P Right down to the character models being suspiciously similar. That more than just about anything I've seen so far makes me think the game is a very much intentional homage.
Eeeeey, the marine lacked a cigar, and was open-faced instead of having a hood overhead grey visor, and that marine was a special/hidden unit! :P But also the Marine is the huggable guy out of everyone in TAB! :V


The sprite art in this game is beautiful.  The death animations are so well done that I thought some of my snipers' kills were physics based ragdolls and it took me hours to make the connection that they couldn't be.  And I knew in advance this is sprite art mind you.

Edit: Although, looking at it, it might be pictures of 3D art.  I'm not sure.  If it is they modified it by hand because 3D shaders don't normally give such distinct lines and highlights.

Double edit: Looking at the Tesla Tower, I'm pretty sure that's a snapshot of a 3D model.  No one would have bothered to animate that by hand.  Still, neat way to save processing power and still have a game that looks to my eyes pretty modern.  Reminds me of Don't Starve or Darkest Dungeon.  Granted, I never played WC, so maybe if I had I'd know what you're talking about.
Can you explain this magic? :D
Because the animation is pretty smooth, being rotational and all.
But I don't get why there are parallels being drawn to WC or SC...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 08:02:19 am by Tiruin »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2017, 03:12:53 pm »

Huh. Took a second to watch some gameplay of this.

...

The thing's a friggin' civ-style WC3/SC2 custom map, right down to upgrading the residential income buildings.

Not a bad thing, mind you, exactly. Engine et al actually being built for it has more or less always been one of the major fiddly bits of making those things, and it's not even remotely like the general design is unenjoyable or anything, especially since there's very little else on the market that really leans on fusing RTS and city building mechanics.

But.

It's still a friggin' WC3 custom map. More SC2 by way of lesser clunkiness, but... still.

I was joking when I said (maybe to myself, maybe somewhere around here, hell if I can remember these days) stuff about more near-future game development largely looking like someone shiftily looked around and then filched the design of those custom maps. But here is something that's shiftily (or maybe blatantly, I'unno what they've said was their design influences) looked around and filched the design of those things.

It's a good thing commercial gaming is finally catching up in places with amateur game design from like a decade ago, though, I guess?

Could you provide links?
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etgfrog

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2017, 03:15:49 pm »

Edit: Although, looking at it, it might be pictures of 3D art.  I'm not sure.  If it is they modified it by hand because 3D shaders don't normally give such distinct lines and highlights.

Double edit: Looking at the Tesla Tower, I'm pretty sure that's a snapshot of a 3D model.  No one would have bothered to animate that by hand.  Still, neat way to save processing power and still have a game that looks to my eyes pretty modern.  Reminds me of Don't Starve or Darkest Dungeon.  Granted, I never played WC, so maybe if I had I'd know what you're talking about.
I first heard of this being done was factorio. It lets you use the benefits of good 3d modeling with the resource profile of sprites.
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Flying Dice

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2017, 03:38:09 pm »

-
The main games/series they cite by name as inspiration for TAB in their first blog post about it are Starcraft, Anno, and Age of Empires.

The bit about their studio says that they're very new (founded in 2013), based in Spain (which explains the occasional bit of awkward English in their materials), and cite Ultima and Might & Magic as core inspirations for the studio, which seems to fit--their first game, Lords of Xulima, was a high-complexity turn-based fantasy RPG.

So I'd say it's probably even odds between some of them being around in the WC/SC custom map scene or some of them drawing inspiration from the same sources as those folks. Remember, the first Anno released in '98, AoE I in '97. I don't have much experience with Anno, but I damn sure do with AoE, and the whole tech-up and research process + increasingly high-tech building visuals reminds me very much of AoE, especially combined with the high-tension economic macro game.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2017, 04:55:16 pm »

The sprite art in this game is beautiful.  The death animations are so well done that I thought some of my snipers' kills were physics based ragdolls and it took me hours to make the connection that they couldn't be.  And I knew in advance this is sprite art mind you.

Edit: Although, looking at it, it might be pictures of 3D art.  I'm not sure.  If it is they modified it by hand because 3D shaders don't normally give such distinct lines and highlights.

Double edit: Looking at the Tesla Tower, I'm pretty sure that's a snapshot of a 3D model.  No one would have bothered to animate that by hand.  Still, neat way to save processing power and still have a game that looks to my eyes pretty modern.  Reminds me of Don't Starve or Darkest Dungeon.  Granted, I never played WC, so maybe if I had I'd know what you're talking about.
Can you explain this magic? :D
Because the animation is pretty smooth, being rotational and all.
But I don't get why there are parallels being drawn to WC or SC...

If you look at the Tesla Tower, the rotating bits on the top are shown on a different angle each frame, but the tower itself doesn't turn.  That's a lot of needless work if you're hand drawing.  But if you make a 3D model, its very easy to have the bit on the top spin.

I believe what they did is they made 3D models for everything in the game, picked a single camera angle, and then took a picture of each object from that angle in every facing that's needed.  So the soldier has a picture for 5 different cardinal directions, with every direction except up/down being mirrored.  The soldier has AFAIK 3 animations: walking, shooting, and idle.  For every frame of each of those animations, they have 5 different snapshots.

So they made their 3D soldier model, and now they have ~100 pictures of it.  They don't use the soldier model for anything at this point, but they aren't done.  Now they go in by hand, and fix up the models by hand.  To me it looks like they cleaned up the colors, traced in some distinct lines and outlines, and added highlights.  For those who don't know, highlights in sprite art are lit areas.  Video game cameras don't "see" light, they just fake it by lighting up everything not in shadow.  Thus they can do normal shading fine, and they can shade in shadows great, but they can't highlights except on reflective surfaces like metal.  Something like the top of your shirt's shoulders being slightly brighter when the sun is high in the sky, that's incredibly hard to do in a 3D game.  But easy in a 2D one.

If you look a little beneath the spikes at the top of wall segments, you should see a little bright patch.  That's a highlight, thus it was almost certainly drawn in by hand.

The whole thing is really clever.  I don't think any other engine could have this many moving units and still look this good.
Spoiler: digression (click to show/hide)
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Flying Dice

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2017, 05:54:01 pm »

EnigmaticHat, one of the cool bits is that apparently this is the same in-house engine they developed for their prior turn-based RPG after a big round of optimization to custom-tailor it for this purpose. Source, around halfway down the page.
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Aurora on small monitors:
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2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

Frumple

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2017, 08:06:31 pm »

So I'd say it's probably even odds between some of them being around in the WC/SC custom map scene or some of them drawing inspiration from the same sources as those folks. Remember, the first Anno released in '98, AoE I in '97. I don't have much experience with Anno, but I damn sure do with AoE, and the whole tech-up and research process + increasingly high-tech building visuals reminds me very much of AoE, especially combined with the high-tension economic macro game.
Never played any of the anno series at all m'self, heh. Could see the visual aspect with AoE (though it was pretty common with custom junk, too, if generally with notably more limited models, ha), but the eco part (however high tension) is way closer to how some of the custom map stuff did things than just about anything AoE's way. Infinite (but limited slots, so to speak) resource nodes were a vaguely common thing to do. Territory focused (risk style, etc.) ones moreso than freeform stuff, but it was a fairly general thing.

Add on the housing upgrade for money and pop thing in particular (especially with the individual upgrading vs AoE's general age advancement), which was damn near ubiquitous, and, well... if it was arrived at without strong influence directly from the maps, they very much ended up making a buncha' the same decisions a good few other folks did a handful of years back. Which is totes possible by way of shared influences or whatev', it'd just make me a bit surprised.

Could you provide links?
Eh... not without a lot of very annoying digging (more than I have the will to do), tbh. There's a fair bucketload of the particular style of play, of very much varying quality and often identical or near identical names, heh, and while I directly played more than a few back in WC3 days (which is why the similarity hits me), it was never a major interest (and I kinda' sucked at it :V) so I don't remember much in the way of specific-enough-to-link examples. SC2 exposure's been more youtube vids, but it's been a good number of moons since that, too :-\

There's almost certainly some on hive workshop or somethin', though. Civilization, world war, empire building, that'd probably be keywords that'd pull something up.

But I don't get why there are parallels being drawn to WC or SC...
Least in my case it's specifically parallels with one of the sorta' more popular general styles of custom/player created maps that were made for 'em. Mechanics wise there's a good number of similarities with bits of design common to the general lot I've been mentioning. The base games for either have little to no resemblance, heh.

Graphics wise, the only thing that's really hit me there is the first two available military units, as mentioned. The ranger and solider bear fairly notable (least to me) resemblance to the night elf archer and space marine models, respectively, and they were both common model choices for non-vanilla ranged units in WC3 custom maps. Marine was usually later on in tech trees, but not always.

... graphics wise, tbh, I think I might be most reminded of Heroes of Annihilated Empires, just... newer and more generally steampunk as opposed to a single faction. I have a sneaky suspicion that's more because I've just been watching vids and don't have free reign to zoom it or whatev', heh. It's in no small part just due to how the zombies clump up. The undead in HoAE could do stuff that looked pretty similar, if generally with fewer numbers... well, everyone did, but the undead specifically had zombies, too, so.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 08:13:03 pm by Frumple »
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Flying Dice

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2017, 09:25:26 pm »

So I'd say it's probably even odds between some of them being around in the WC/SC custom map scene or some of them drawing inspiration from the same sources as those folks. Remember, the first Anno released in '98, AoE I in '97. I don't have much experience with Anno, but I damn sure do with AoE, and the whole tech-up and research process + increasingly high-tech building visuals reminds me very much of AoE, especially combined with the high-tension economic macro game.
Never played any of the anno series at all m'self, heh. Could see the visual aspect with AoE (though it was pretty common with custom junk, too, if generally with notably more limited models, ha), but the eco part (however high tension) is way closer to how some of the custom map stuff did things than just about anything AoE's way. Infinite (but limited slots, so to speak) resource nodes were a vaguely common thing to do. Territory focused (risk style, etc.) ones moreso than freeform stuff, but it was a fairly general thing.

Ah, I was more speaking in terms of the pressing need to micro your macro, and resources being highly interconnected. Very much in the same vein as AoE where you need to constantly gauge your situation and allocate workforce appropriately, while being ready to shift it around again at a moments notice-admittedly by toggling production rather than moving vils, but very much the same in practice. That, and the way a single tile of displacement can make a resource building drastically more or less productive. There's a slightly lower degree of granularity in that the base unit of decisionmaking for resource gathering is larger in TAB, but the consequences of even minor mistakes in priority can ruin you just as badly as putting too many vils on wood or killing your boars too far from the town center.

There's also, as I mentioned, the aspect of it being a much more involved economy with six literal resources (wood, stone, iron, oil, food, gold) and two pop-caps (workers, colonists), plus a Pylon-style power system atop that, all of which depend on most/all of the others to continue and expand production. That's AoE through and through, where WC and SC were both just two resources + pop cap, barely a step up from C&C Generals-style one-resource play. Maybe custom maps added more, I really wasn't into that stuff, but the much more involved econ-side gameplay is very much derived from AoE; I notice myself thinking about my macro and expansion in TAB in pretty much the exact way I thought about it in AoE-and I haven't played AoE multiplayer much in a long, long time-which was quite distinct from Brood War, C&C, or Homeworld eco perspectives (insofar as that those were pretty much all build-and-forget eco where you occasionally pump more gathering units or secure a new cluster of resources).

The market is also dead-on AoE's market, right down to being a highly inefficient last resort you should only use if the alternative is losing the game.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 09:27:41 pm by Flying Dice »
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Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

EnigmaticHat

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Re: They Are Billions - Hardcore Survival RTS
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2017, 10:14:53 pm »

...we can toggle off production?  I thought I had to nuke the building.
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