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Author Topic: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]  (Read 95454 times)

Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2017, 04:25:09 am »

Honestly, I slightly wonder why people at least seem to have not noticed that there was something off about the 'duel' between Kylo and Luke immediately.  Luke brought out not his green lightsaber, but the blue one that had been broken apart by the Rey and Ren force tug of war only a couple scenes ago.  At least for me, that plus the dodging (maybe a dash of the AT-AT barrage) led to there always the underlying 'something's off' throughout the whole duel that the 'Luke's not actually there' gave a satisfying answer for.
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NRDL

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2017, 06:41:41 am »

Luke suddenly getting a haircut, and becoming 10 years younger was where it started in my case. I'm not sure if I was consciously thinking astral projection yet at that point.
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hector13

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2017, 07:55:14 am »

Luke suddenly getting a haircut, and becoming 10 years younger was where it started in my case. I'm not sure if I was consciously thinking astral projection yet at that point.

+1 “why have you coloured your beard, Luke?”

I initially thought Leia was having a vision, so I knew he wasn’t there. After the AT-AT barrage, I was seriously hoping he was there ‘cause that would have been so cool.

Disappointed he showed up on Poe’s binoculars, and suddenly Poe becomes wise of the Jedi Master’s motives, but ah well. Luke isn’t there to fight, he’s there to delay, so you will notice there’s no actual fighting since that would ruin the ruse.
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Kot

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2017, 09:54:08 am »

Rey turns out to not be some dumb fucking chosen one of prophecy repeat, but is just a person who has taken charge of their own fate.
But she is. She is magically good at everything she does, everyone likes her and whatnot. Being a chosen one doesn't require a prophercy, just requires a writer to make one character objectively "best" character. Whole "Wound in The Force" theory be damned, that is still her being exceptional due to, for now, no apparent reason.

Snoke is some shlub who got where he was by abusing the quick and easy of the dark side, and yet was raising Kylo Ren to be a synthesis of both light and darkness and also then gets fucking destroyed without so much as a fight.
Snoke is some complete noone. Nothing is really known about him, which was fine in the previous movie, as we all expected an explanation in this one. But then he just died. He is just random big evil with no connection to previous movies. It's as if there was suddenly new LoTR trilogy set after original one where there is crazy new powerful wizard named Snort and then he just dies.

Poe being a reckless absolute individual Hard Man Making Hard Choices is a bad thing, because when you are operating as a group rebellion disruptive heroes who think they're invincible get everyone killed.
It's a war, people die, and the problem is what Poe does works. It's the "Pink Hair Sue Commander" that for no good reason didin't tell anyone her plan, which directly led to everything going badly. If you notice, when Poe is being told that they in fact have a plan, he thinks it will work. In his mind, all he did was trying to save everything because after Leia went down there was apparently no plan, and without one they would be dead.

The New Republic's "goodness" is functionally evil itself, because it plunges the galaxy straight back into a genocidal war after working so hard to get out of the last one.
You mean New Republic stupidity? This is something that hurts me the most probably, believing that New Republic, and Mon Mothma and basically everyone except Leia believed in this crazy stupid idea of "disband our entire military, when Imperial Remnants see we did that they will disband their entire military too". This shit is the satirical propaganda that people apply to real life anti-gun movement, except New Republic took it seriously. Even during the longest time Old Republic didin't have an army, they had Jedi, they had Juicidal Force, they had goddamn Navy. New doesn't have anything, and First Order be damned, there were dozens of other political entites that would attack them for profit, Hutt Cartels and various pirates from the top of the head.

And then there's Kylo Ren. Oh god, Kylo Ren. Back in TFA I thought his motive for killing Han was one of the best things about the film, because it was a villain motivation like that of Berserk's Griffith with weight and some scariness behind it. Kill the past is the theme of the whole film and what it intends to do for the franchise, and in this Kylo fucking embodies it. He gets it. He understands the endless cycle and wants now not just to sever his personal ties, but everyone's ties to the bloated past of the Star Wars galaxy. He transcended the inherent flaw in the philosophy of the Sith, the hypocrisy that embracing the dark side for your passion destroys that passion. Instead, he's embraced the dark side for...nothing. The void, the heady pure nihilism that can allow something new and unconnected to the bullshit of Empire and Republic to grow. And if the third movie in this trilogy in any way involves Kylo Ren using the First Order to crush the rest of the forces in the galaxy before turning it on itself and blowing up their dumb superweapon without a fight, I will endure any number of emo teen references in retaliation for my love of him as a villain.
He transcended the inherent flaw in the philosophy of the Sith, the hypocrisy that embracing the dark side for your passion destroys that passion. Instead, he's embraced the dark side for...nothing. The void, the heady pure nihilism that can allow something new and unconnected to the bullshit of Empire and Republic to grow.

That's a fascinating take on Kylo's motivation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he does still spout the whole "order and control" rhetoric that Vader used as a justification for his evil, but I'd love to see more of your idea implemented in the next movie. Embracing evil for evil's sake, as opposed to any sort of "greater good" or other excuses.

Also, the FTL suicide jump was way cooler than the low-power DS shots or the destruction of the Death Stars. I got chills seeing the mountainous story roadblock of Star Destroyers just...disintegrate under the power of it, black space turned white in total silence.
The FTL suicide jump indeed looked cool, but it has heavy implication as to why nobody goddamn did that before (setting aside that to this point there were explanations in lore that this wouldn't work, but obviously they aren't canon anymore), considering it's apparently the single best way of tacking space combat due to sheer power, not to mention range. Why does nobody use warp torpedoes? Just gut an X-Wing from everything except engines and warp drive, replace the cockpit with remote guidance and lug that shit at enemy ships.

I was fond of the "subtle" anticapitalism of rich people playing both the Republic and the First Order while living it up on a planet they stole.
Nothing subtle about it.

Within its own laws and physics and literary rules, the Star Wars universe is pretty much a blank slate. And man, why exactly do you think this opens up a whole new universe? There is nowhere to go from here! Whatever they do, it will be a serious disconnect from the both the trilogy and the series as a whole.
Precisely. EU is dead, and it was what had some of the best stories around, which is also my big issue with new movies. EU died for this, and the quality of non-existant EU movies aside, they would at least have much better source material that's consistent with Star Wars.

Perhaps even worse than that, whatever comes NEXT is certainly not going to be any good. Disney truly is Marvelizing Star Wars. And while this is going to step on a lot of people's toes, on the whole, Marvel movies... are bad. Disney doesn't care about good stories. They're not good at making stories.
I like Marvel movies. While they aren't the pinnacle of movie-making, some of them are visibly worse than other, but they are decently fun, most of them have some original ideas for themselves and most importantly, they are mostly consistent. I do not have to watch a movie and feel like it in some way contradicts everything that I have known about the MCU. Meanwhile in a way new Star Wars do exactly the opposite. They take the source material and balantly disregard it to fit in more "cool" factors, more forced ideas and more corporationalism. MCU might be a product, but it's decently machined and produced product that keeps in line with other products of it's brand, while new Star Wars is just sticking Star Wars brand onto something that clearly doesn't work as Star Wars.

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smjjames

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2017, 09:56:17 am »

So, I watched the movie last night and is it me or does old Leia look like an older Kathryn Janeway? I guess it was supposed to be Carrie Fisher or a CGI version, but still. That kind of kept bothering me as she didn't look much like the younger Leia.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 09:57:59 am by smjjames »
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Kot

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2017, 10:21:51 am »

Speaking of Leia, she survived an explosion, survived in open space, then she woke up and did a Mary Poppins flight into a door (which, by the by, also opened directly to open space so they should all have been sucked out, but apparently space has now air) meanwhile Luke died because his ghost got tired...

...and people will defend this.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2017, 04:44:44 pm »

Ok saw the movie:

- This movie lacks a serious villain. Snoke was a concept of one and he was killed off. Now we´re stuck with the first order being led by two nobodies: Hux (who´s basically your average mid-management figure. We´ve all had a boss like him) and Kylo Ren (who is basically a teen with ADHD).  I think this is the biggest problem, together with the plot-wastage of wasting Snoke

- Disney seems stuck with the formula of copying the first trilogy and changing things just enough to avoid being accused of outright plagiarism

- Other than that movie was entertaining enough

Overall: 6/10
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Egan_BW

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2017, 05:27:27 pm »

Opinion: Yay starwars
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Reelya

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2017, 05:43:10 pm »

- Disney seems stuck with the formula of copying the first trilogy and changing things just enough to avoid being accused of outright plagiarism

Umm yeah, as I stated with my "land-speeders vs walkers" point. The real problem with merely copying a scene from another piece of media and changing "details" is that in a well-written piece of media those details matter and are what makes the thing hold together as a consistent narrative. Think about why the Hoth speeder scene is memorable in the first place, it's because of the very specific interaction of the elements in that story. e.g. the grapples that take the walkers down, and that when Luke's speeder is downed, it gets stomped by a walker's foot. All the chosen elements of the set piece matter whether or not it's the good guys or bad guys getting ahead. The speeder vs walker scene in the new Star Wars fails, because it could have played out exactly the same with any generic Imperial forces vs any generic Rebel forces.

Kot

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2017, 06:17:08 pm »

BUT THEN SHE KISSES HIM IT'S IMPORTANT TO THE PLOT VERY!
Also something something Salt Speeders.
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Putnam

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2017, 04:37:29 am »

okay can

is

what's with this "rey isn't the chosen one" thing

"darkness rises, and the light to meet it", i.e. rey was chosen by the light side of the force as a champion to combat the dark side's champion, Kylo Ren; she gets stronger as he does, that's implied like twice in the movie, the connection between them is also to do with all that, Snoke spends a good full minute talking about how he's aware of this "champions" concept and was trying to kill Luke specifically because he thought Luke would get stronger along with Kylo

rey's absolutely the chosen one, her being a "nobody" is just the light side of the force's whole "humble origins" thing it loves so much

this personification of and giving agency to the force is nothing new, mind, KOTOR was mentioned earlier and canon has the whole Mortis thing with literal embodiments of the parts of the force

NJW2000

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2017, 05:49:03 am »

I thought what the rebel general did made sense. She only did the suicide-thing once the empire saw the resistance evacuate and started blowing them up, which only occured because the rebellious teenage schmucks basically told the empire what the plan was. How the empire was not going to notice the evacuation vessels leaving was a bit dubious, but Leia seemed to believe it, so its probably canon. And the insurgency on the ship only started when she explained/formulated the "run away" plan.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2017, 06:08:14 am »

oh, I think people misunderstood the hyperdrive kamikaze: it wasnt because of the hyperdrive, it was because it was an effing battlecruiser. Even then, the damage to Snoke´s ship was minor compared to the size of the battlecruiser.

I think the hyperdrive just made it impossible to dodge.
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Putnam

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2017, 06:49:32 am »

I dunno, the "sudden extreme boost in speed" thing sort of helps.

But yeah, we've seen hyperdrive-as-weapon in other canon. Clone Wars had it within the first 3 episodes, using it to destroy a large CIS ship by... hyperdriving it into a moon, which was no worse for the wear, so the "why didn't they just hyperdrive an X-wing into starkiller base/the death star" doesn't seem to be valid.

Kot

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Re: Star Wars [Warning: Spoilers inside!]
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2017, 11:07:51 am »

I thought what the rebel general did made sense. She only did the suicide-thing once the empire saw the resistance evacuate and started blowing them up, which only occured because the rebellious teenage schmucks basically told the empire what the plan was. How the empire was not going to notice the evacuation vessels leaving was a bit dubious, but Leia seemed to believe it, so its probably canon. And the insurgency on the ship only started when she explained/formulated the "run away" plan.
I dunno. I seem to recall that Poe and everyone did things against her because she didin't tell them anything about the plan, and just told them to, IIRC, keep faith, which in their situation sounds as good as "I have no fucking idea what to so I'll just try the thing that will explictly not help which is run away into space on transports". Poe had no idea the transports were cloaked, nor that they were headed for nearby planet, in his, and viewers, eyes, she was just giving away whole Resistance as ducks to shoot.

I dunno, the "sudden extreme boost in speed" thing sort of helps.

But yeah, we've seen hyperdrive-as-weapon in other canon. Clone Wars had it within the first 3 episodes, using it to destroy a large CIS ship by... hyperdriving it into a moon, which was no worse for the wear, so the "why didn't they just hyperdrive an X-wing into starkiller base/the death star" doesn't seem to be valid.
IIRC, this doesn't break canon. As far as I'm concerned, the explanation was that when you hyperdrive into something, you explode (or rather vapourize or something, due to particle interacting with each other), but the thing you hyperdrive into not really. IIRC, hyperspace has a "shadow" of everything, which is why majority of the hyperdrive problem is having a computer to do calculations to not hit anything on the way there, also mind you, the thing doesn't even really have to be real, as Immobilizers and Interdictors just project a gravity well and thus stop any ship from entering hyperspace and pull ships already in hyperspace into realspace. That thing was already very strained in recent times, with Falcon hyperdriving almost into Starkillers base and there were cases (Clone Wars, IIRC) of hyperdriving from inside planets atmosphere, but eh.

FAKEEDIT:
Actually, old canon instance of someone hyperspacing into someone.
Spoiler: It ended like this. (click to show/hide)
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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.
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