Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 26

Author Topic: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?  (Read 12685 times)

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2018, 09:58:54 pm »

They do not know that they're in a simulation. But the point is moot, because they're dumb as bricks and are not sentient at all. If Toady hasn't programmed them to be sentient, they aren't. It can't be otherwise. They can't think or feel, their thoughts are only an approximation. I don't really care either way and regularly go on rampages.

They know as much about the simulation that they're in as we know about the simulation that we are in.

We do not know if we are in a simulation. It's best to assume that we aren't unless proven otherwise.
Logged
My mods! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165028.0
Dungeon Crawl Let's Play!
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
It's not the Earth that's flat, it's the brain of the people who think it is.

VislarRn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2018, 11:09:03 pm »

There is this idea of a thing called a philosophical zombie. It's basicaly just a robot that made to resemble a human in every way but lacks a soul or anything like that. But if it is programmed to think its alive and truly sentient.....is it truly alive and sentient?

If you took an insect and expanded its consciousness using cyberpunk wizardry to human or even further levels....is the resulting consciousness truly sentient?

Well, if you like to expand consciousness, you'll have to define fundamental unit that is able to carry conscious perception.
Fundamentals of consciousness are basically triadic processes.

1. Subject (idea)
2. Sign - (form taken from sensory experience)
3. Object (reference)

* Subject + Sign = Experience [used in making and retrieving memories / episodic memory gets taken to pieces and combined]
* Sign + Object = Convention [creates shared semiotic environment for communication, e.g. inner dialogue, allows you to predict future]
* Object + Subject = Perception [experience that is not semiotically mediated / forms raw episodic memory, only happens in present]

As you can see, dwarf fortress doesn't simulate any of this even remotely.
Another problem, is that semiotically mediated processes are potentially infinite. E.g. you can multiply all semiotic units by different semiotic units in potentially infinite manner, endlessly creating new kind of symbols and recombining them to new ones. This system is insanely powerful compared to computer algorithms, which generally work in linear manner. Linear processes collapse, when one step / line of code gets disrupted. But brain is like computer that carries an "algorithm" that is able to recombine itself in adaptive manner and saves it's own past recombinations as a part of itself. Imagine trying to create something like this. It's a problem that must be addressed when attempting to create digitally sentient being.

Wait... damn... in context of DF, it would mean that dwarf fortress code would become self aware and start coding itself.
That would eventually lead to passing a technological singularity (version 1.0) and then we would all be... slaves to the AI to Armok.

Yes, now I see it. Future - it is inevitable.
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2018, 11:15:24 pm »

Now I'm daydreaming about 1.0.
Logged
My mods! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165028.0
Dungeon Crawl Let's Play!
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
It's not the Earth that's flat, it's the brain of the people who think it is.

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 03:16:19 am »

They do not know that they're in a simulation. But the point is moot, because they're dumb as bricks and are not sentient at all. If Toady hasn't programmed them to be sentient, they aren't. It can't be otherwise. They can't think or feel, their thoughts are only an approximation. I don't really care either way and regularly go on rampages.

They know as much about the simulation that they're in as we know about the simulation that we are in.


We do not know if we are in a simulation. It's best to assume that we aren't unless proven otherwise.


*whistles*
https://www.space.com/32543-universe-a-simulation-asimov-debate.html
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 03:20:16 am »

It's not like I care about this. DF characters aren't even 0.1% sentient. End of story.
Logged
My mods! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165028.0
Dungeon Crawl Let's Play!
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
It's not the Earth that's flat, it's the brain of the people who think it is.

Findulidas

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL:OFFTOPIC:5][NOTHOUGHT]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 03:45:00 am »

If you think the sinple pieces of data being destroyed is a problem, then you need to join the jains and sweep the street as you walk along since you might potentially step on something miniscule and kill it.

I also think you should stop eating not only animals but plants as well since all plants have a infinitely more complex nervous system than anything in df.

In essence its not worth bothering over the quite simple points of data in any games we play.
Logged
...wonderful memories of the creeping sense of dread...

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 04:29:45 am »

And you kill billions upon billions of bacteria as you walk. You bastard.
Logged
My mods! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165028.0
Dungeon Crawl Let's Play!
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
It's not the Earth that's flat, it's the brain of the people who think it is.

Zaphod

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2018, 05:22:19 am »

They do not know that they're in a simulation. But the point is moot, because they're dumb as bricks and are not sentient at all. If Toady hasn't programmed them to be sentient, they aren't. It can't be otherwise. They can't think or feel, their thoughts are only an approximation. I don't really care either way and regularly go on rampages.

They know as much about the simulation that they're in as we know about the simulation that we are in.

Exactly
Logged
I only play legends mode

I also play on the longest history setting for hard mode.

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2018, 05:27:10 am »

They do not know that they're in a simulation. But the point is moot, because they're dumb as bricks and are not sentient at all. If Toady hasn't programmed them to be sentient, they aren't. It can't be otherwise. They can't think or feel, their thoughts are only an approximation. I don't really care either way and regularly go on rampages.

They know as much about the simulation that they're in as we know about the simulation that we are in.

Exactly

Why would I care?
Logged
My mods! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165028.0
Dungeon Crawl Let's Play!
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
It's not the Earth that's flat, it's the brain of the people who think it is.

Zaphod

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2018, 05:33:52 am »

They do not know that they're in a simulation. But the point is moot, because they're dumb as bricks and are not sentient at all. If Toady hasn't programmed them to be sentient, they aren't. It can't be otherwise. They can't think or feel, their thoughts are only an approximation. I don't really care either way and regularly go on rampages.

They know as much about the simulation that they're in as we know about the simulation that we are in.

Exactly

Why would I care?

Ethics?
Logged
I only play legends mode

I also play on the longest history setting for hard mode.

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2018, 05:48:30 am »

They do not know that they're in a simulation. But the point is moot, because they're dumb as bricks and are not sentient at all. If Toady hasn't programmed them to be sentient, they aren't. It can't be otherwise. They can't think or feel, their thoughts are only an approximation. I don't really care either way and regularly go on rampages.

They know as much about the simulation that they're in as we know about the simulation that we are in.

Exactly

Why would I care?

Ethics?

Deleting little bits of data has no ethical repercussions. They have about the intelligence of bacteria. And you step on and kill billions of bacteria with every step.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 05:50:40 am by KittyTac »
Logged
My mods! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165028.0
Dungeon Crawl Let's Play!
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
It's not the Earth that's flat, it's the brain of the people who think it is.

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2018, 07:22:49 am »

You're vastly under estimating the "intelligence" and agency of bacteria when placing them on an equal footing with a crude simulation of some behaviors (this is not intended as criticism of DF). DF is far below the level of virii as well (the real world kind, not the malicious code one).
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2018, 07:24:31 am »

You're vastly under estimating the "intelligence" and agency of bacteria when placing them on an equal footing with a crude simulation of some behaviors (this is not intended as criticism of DF). DF is far below the level of virii as well (the real world kind, not the malicious code one).

Well, that furthers my point. They're LESS intelligent than bacteria. And you kill trillions of bacteria every day.
Logged
My mods! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165028.0
Dungeon Crawl Let's Play!
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
It's not the Earth that's flat, it's the brain of the people who think it is.

PlumpHelmetMan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2018, 07:39:32 am »

Honestly this discussion is absurd. Why are we even still debating this?
Logged
It's actually pretty terrifying to think about having all of your fat melt off into grease because you started sweating too much.

Maximum Spin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] [GOES_TO_ELEVEN]
    • View Profile
Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2018, 07:41:52 am »

It is not ethical, but not for that reason.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 26