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Author Topic: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?  (Read 14353 times)

SmileyMan

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #225 on: February 06, 2018, 08:39:28 am »

And so it went, along that strange assumption.
For a scientific debate, there was an awful lot of bad logic going on (or in the report at least):

"But the argument strikes Tegmark as flawed. For one, he asked, what would prevent an infinite chain of universes each simulating another below it?"

Nothing, but that doesn't preclude a finite chain either. Just because I had a father and a grandfather, it doesn't mean that history is infinite.
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In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

Reelya

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #226 on: February 06, 2018, 08:48:38 am »

A cool mathematician gives a little talk here about his position that data can never truly represent reality.

I'm not really sold on this. Two objections come to mind:

1) First, the "can all this really be represented by numbers?" argument is basically the "argument from incredulity", and has an in-built emotional appeal. It's also nearly identical to a classic argument about why "souls" exists: "are you really just physical matter or is there something more that mere matter?" is basically the same as saying "numbers cannot represent the ineffable nature of consciousness". "Mere matter" in one case, "mere numbers" in the other case. In both cases there's an emotional value judgement about what "mere" physical matter or "mere" numbers can do.

2) Second, his argument is that two numbers cannot truly represent a vector, since it would be ambiguous. However, if you specify six numbers instead of two, then you can fully represent a 2D vector along with the coordinate system that it's embedded in. So, that example is misleading about "what numbers can't do" because he specified a situation where merely omitting some of the salient numbers caused an ambiguity. So that example fails to be convincing. He then says "numbers cannot represent this, so how can they represent a human being" which is back to the "argument from incredulity" and appeal to emotion, along with being a flawed scenario in itself. In fact, 6 numbers can represent any 2D vector in a coordinate-agnostic format, but there are in fact an infinite number of possible representations of the same vector. That makes numbers more expressive, not less expressive: in other words, the same set of numbers can carry multiple levels of context along with them, which means you have explicit meaning and implicit meaning, an infinite variety of ways to convey the same information with numbers, but each way of saying it carries different meta-knowledge about contextualization, that you can choose to decode or ignore.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 08:54:34 am by Reelya »
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SmileyMan

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #227 on: February 06, 2018, 08:56:53 am »

Even irrational and transcendent numbers can be represented by their properties. For instance it's impossible to write down π, but that doesn't mean I can't do accurate calculations with it
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In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

MCreeper

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #228 on: February 06, 2018, 10:18:41 am »

This thread moved from yet another troll topic from professional trolls to arguing about existence of humanity and possibility of creating multiple Matrixes inside each other. It's still for the best.  :P
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #229 on: May 19, 2018, 09:43:02 am »

honestly i can't think why it should be unethical.
because if it were, then you should start a big campaign forbidding children to phantasize any creatures, because those creatures would cease to exist once they stop thinking of them.
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"dwarves are by definition alcohol powered parasitic beards, which will cling to small caveadapt humanoids." (Chaia)

KittyTac

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #230 on: May 19, 2018, 09:45:43 am »

Do not revive the thread. Let it rot. :P
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #231 on: May 19, 2018, 09:52:22 am »

Do not revive the thread. Let it rot. :P
well, it was too tempting, because i cannot delete it from my list of updated topics...
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"dwarves are by definition alcohol powered parasitic beards, which will cling to small caveadapt humanoids." (Chaia)

KittyTac

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #232 on: May 19, 2018, 10:09:15 am »

Do not revive the thread. Let it rot. :P
well, it was too tempting, because i cannot delete it from my list of updated topics...
Let it bury itself until GoblinCookie notices.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #233 on: May 19, 2018, 10:22:28 am »

Let it bury itself until GoblinCookie notices.

Here is me noticing this little exercise in thread necromancy.....  :)
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KittyTac

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #234 on: May 19, 2018, 11:00:25 am »

You noticed. ;D Don't fully resuscitate it, though.
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Eschar

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #235 on: May 19, 2018, 02:39:37 pm »

Here's a slightly different question: given the uneasiness the OP appears to harbor considering the violent things we do in DF, would playing DF be more or less ethical than Doom?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 04:47:49 pm by Eschar »
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #236 on: May 19, 2018, 04:08:19 pm »

Neither is any more or less ethical than the other. They're both computer games with the "violent activities" being just the shifting around of numbers.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 04:19:08 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Eschar

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #237 on: May 19, 2018, 04:37:02 pm »

Neither is any more or less ethical than the other. They're both computer games with the "violent activities" being just the shifting around of numbers.

That's about the games themselves, as software, rather than playing the games.
...ah, I see I forgot to specify that in my post. I apologize.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 04:47:34 pm by Eschar »
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"Continue struggling, laws of physics be darned."
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"What, are you stupid or something? Every one of the snake's bones is crushed! Its internal organs are torn apart! There is no way you can - (6) You resuscitate the snake."
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Bumber

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #238 on: May 19, 2018, 07:29:52 pm »

Is reviving dead threads ethical?
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KittyTac

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Re: Is playing dwarf fortress ethical?
« Reply #239 on: May 20, 2018, 12:09:06 am »

Should I ask Toady to lock this thread so it dies forever?
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It could well be the thing controlling the number of ducklings is the number of homosexual male ducks
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