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Author Topic: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags - edited  (Read 467 times)

JesterHell696

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Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags - edited
« on: January 11, 2018, 02:02:18 am »

Okay so I'm going to redo this OP for more clarity on my position and this suggestion.


The core of this suggestion is to make the [STRANGE_MOODS] tag have some variability for both the purpose of modding and for use in the eventual myth and magic Arc, the reason for making and including this suggestion now rather then during the myth & magic arc is because the current arc is quite literally about artifacts and there place in the world.

I imagine that the tag would be structured like this.

[STRANGE_MOODS : Type of mood : chance of mood : mood item catalyst]

Type of mood: this would determine what type of mood the creature could have, some possible variables for this would be.

ALL, FEY, SECRETIVE, MACABRE, FELL, POSSESSED and any other mood type added in the future.

Chance of mood: this would determine what percentage of this creature is even able to mood, while actual mood rate would still be determined in the default manner, the possible variable would be a percentile.

any number between 100 - 0.

Mood item catalyst: This would be what triggers the mood or what is the mood based off of, some possible variables for right now this would be.

SKILL - mood is based off of the creatures highest moodable skill, the current system.

PERSONAL - mood is based off of the creatures preferences, could result in a weapon smith who always wanted to be a carpenter deciding to make a artifact barrel.


Some possible future variables would be.


CIV - mood is based off the creatures current cultures, would result in a system where items would be connected to civ values, weapons and armor would be connected to martial powers while instruments would be connected to merriment and art ect.

WORSHIP - mood is based of the creatures current object of worships spheres, death gods and demons would like weapons, could also effect artifact magic effects.

SECRET -  mood based off of a SECRET the creature knows so that there aren't 200 necromancer tomes per necromancer, I imagine once other magic secrets exist it could get overloaded.

RANDOM - mood is randomly chosen from one of the other (SKILL, PERSONAL, CIV) catalysts when mood starts.


Under this system dwarves would just need to have [STRANGE_MOODS:ALL:100:SKILL] to function just as they do now while modders could use it to create customized moods for their custom creatures. This could also be used to make it so that vampires get [STRANGE_MOODS:MACABRE:100:PERSONAL] or necromancer get [STRANGE_MOODS:FELL:100:SECRET].

Note: Original post below

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« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 04:31:33 am by JesterHell696 »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 02:29:37 am »

It's interesting, but it's very much a crafting related thing isn't it, strange moods? Something very dwarfish. That's why humans get 'religion based artifacts' that are based on worshipping bits of each other and warriors of all kinds get weapon-love 'artifacts'.

Sure after mythgen there'll be scope for other kind of non-crafting moods and non-dwarf crafting based civs. So maybe then.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 02:37:11 am »

It's interesting, but it's very much a crafting related thing isn't it, strange moods? Something very dwarfish. That's why humans get 'religion based artifacts' that are based on worshipping bits of each other and warriors of all kinds get weapon-love 'artifacts'.

Sure after mythgen there'll be scope for other kind of non-crafting moods and non-dwarf crafting based civs. So maybe then.

I don't personally see crafting as being in and of itself a dwarf only trait, then again I also disagree with only dwarves getting steel, Candy sure but steel... no.

But I also suggested adding it if only for modding purposes, I can mod it so that others get steel but I can only make it so that everyone does all moods or no moods, I'd personally like more control on whom does what.

The Idea is simply to add variations of the strange mood tag so that not all (Real) artifacts are of dwarfish make and make it so that creatures other then Dwarves can have appropriate strange moods, either by default or for modding purposes, here an example of how I imagine it.


EDIT: I just thought that could also add a variable to determine how likely such a mood is for a creature.

Dwaves would have [STRANGE_MOODS:ALL:100] every dwarf can mood

Elves could have [STRANGE_MOODS:FEY:30] because they are "Fey" creatures & [STRANGE_MOODS:POSSESSED:30] by the forces they worship.

Goblins could have [STRANGE_MOODS:FELL:30] because they are [EVIL] & [STRANGE_MOODS:POSSESSED:30] by the demons they follow/worship.

Humans could have [STRANGE_MOODS:SECRETIVE:30] mostly for flavor & [STRANGE_MOODS:POSSESSED:30] by the gods they worship.

While with the rest only 30% can ever mood.

EDIT2: I feel I was a bit hostile/hasty with this initial reply, so sorry for that, the reason I had elves only having fey and possessed mood types was so that dwarves would maintain their "mastery" of craftsmanship, dwarves would still be the best its just that the other races could at least offer a little.

Plus I really like the idea of a goblin or elven invasion lead by a hero's equipped with real artifact weapons, just to help off set dwarven dominance that occurs once they've gotten full masterwork steel equipment.

although that make me think that further modifiers could be added.

 [STRANGE_MOODS : Type of mood : chance of individual creature being able to mood : Preferred mood item]

Dwaves would have [STRANGE_MOODS:ALL:100:SKILL] they get all types of mood, every dwarf can mood but are subject to current rule about whether they do or not and they choose to mood based upon personal skill and item preference.


Goblins could have [STRANGE_MOODS:FELL:30:PERSONAL] they choose something they like rather then skill based & [STRANGE_MOODS:POSSESSED:30:ITEM_WEAPON] by the demons they follow/worship favoring weapons of war.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 06:35:06 am by JesterHell696 »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 04:40:21 am »

Stange moods have a lot of repercussions, hence i would think that it would be generally unwise to unload even a single type or weighted chance of a mood under the same tag onto all races for populating the world generation with excess of insane individuals being unfufilled. Also other civs don't have such a full labor responsibilities so may end up being bottlenecked into producing a lot of artifacts of exactly the same type of object or in the same crafting field.

Im not generally sold onto the idea, but i do have a little mental image of a elf having a fell mood and making a sturdy non-grown wooden chair, as a aberration of their ethics and kind of having it be dynamic like that.
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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 04:58:35 am »

Stange moods have a lot of repercussions, hence i would think that it would be generally unwise to unload even a single type or weighted chance of a mood under the same tag onto all races for populating the world generation with excess of insane individuals being unfufilled. Also other civs don't have such a full labor responsibilities so may end up being bottlenecked into producing a lot of artifacts of exactly the same type of object or in the same crafting field.

Im not generally sold onto the idea, but i do have a little mental image of a elf having a fell mood and making a sturdy non-grown wooden chair, as a aberration of their ethics and kind of having it be dynamic like that.

And then be exiled and be forced to live with dwarves. One of those cool stories you get in legends sometimes.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 05:37:45 am »

Stange moods have a lot of repercussions, hence i would think that it would be generally unwise to unload even a single type or weighted chance of a mood under the same tag onto all races for populating the world generation with excess of insane individuals being unfufilled.

The idea was more that only 30% of humans, elves and goblins have the "chance" to strange mood, not they 30% always do experience it, in this way it would be that 100% of dwarves can experience a strange mood but whether they actually do or not would still be worked out in the normal manner.

But only 30% of humans, elves and goblin would ever even have the chance, meaning dwaves would remain the crafting "masters", which was Shonai_Dweller's point of disagreement.

Also other civs don't have such a full labor responsibilities so may end up being bottlenecked into producing a lot of artifacts of exactly the same type of object or in the same crafting field.

Well I've given humans, elves and goblin the [STRANGE_MOOD] tag and they still seemed to function well enough in the few world I generated, although there where hundreds of eleven bows in only a 200 year old world, which was why I wanted a manner to control how productive they where with the tag to begin with.

Im not generally sold onto the idea, but i do have a little mental image of a elf having a fell mood and making a sturdy non-grown wooden chair, as a aberration of their ethics and kind of having it be dynamic like that.

I just think that if only dwarves produce "true" artifacts over the worlds history it would feel like its lacking something, sure you can get named items but no human, elf or goblin can ever create a true artifact? I don't know it just feels, like a artificial limitation too me.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 07:07:54 am »

Seems to be that the issue here is "what makes dwarves special"
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 07:10:16 am »

The closest comparable tag for your distribution is [POP_RATIO] which works for detemining the chance percentages of castes being born, like weighting females slightly more over males as a example. But that also implies that [STRANGE_MOODS] as a tag activator is no longer relevant, in such a case that you don't want a race like goblins (which can be very multi-ethnic with babysnatched citizens) because this isn't a entity only change to have artifacts.

Dwarves are innately creative and industrially minded & proud, its part of their culture and personal identity and hence they make some of the finest quality goods in the DF world, if you're thinking of replicating extremely proficient artists im sure, but there's little sense in imbuing every race to decrease the base mythic value of the artifact to just be a level above a functional masterpiece of the highest mortal caliber beyond artifacts that are summarily implied by possession and inspiration to be divine.

To be honest i wouldn't want animalpeople to be able to make artifacts either so the inclusion of other races feels a bit empty, like other people have said there's always other achievements & objects to cherish and protect.

That's just my opinion though.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 07:14:57 am »

Dwarves are innately creative and industrially minded & proud, its part of their culture and personal identity and hence they make some of the finest quality goods in the DF world, if you're thinking of replicating extremely proficient artists im sure, but there's little sense in imbuing every race to decrease the base mythic value of the artifact to just be a level above a functional masterpiece of the highest mortal caliber beyond artifacts that are summarily implied by possession and inspiration to be divine.

I think the basic idea is that dwarves special power is the ability to make objects that are inherently special, while other race's artefacts are only special because they are made special by society for symbolic reasons.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 12:59:07 am »

The closest comparable tag for your distribution is [POP_RATIO] which works for detemining the chance percentages of castes being born, like weighting females slightly more over males as a example.

I was thinking more like the [ORIENTATION] tag, its not really used in the default races but it is there if you want it.

Dwarves are innately creative and industrially minded & proud, its part of their culture and personal identity and hence they make some of the finest quality goods in the DF world,

Dwarves that are a part of a goblin civ still have the innate ability to strange mood right? because the ability is creature based not culture based, also if its only a small chance 10, 20 or 30% then dwarves are still the most creative, its just that there are exceptional individuals of other races that can, on rare occasions, match a dwarven master crafter.

but there's little sense in imbuing every race to decrease the base mythic value of the artifact to just be a level above a functional masterpiece of the highest mortal caliber beyond artifacts that are summarily implied by possession and inspiration to be divine.

Well I personally do think of artifact as just being one step above masterwork aka legendary items, just with the limitation that its the crafters life's work or magnum opus so they only get the one, I also feel that just one is artificial but accept that as a limitation more easily then "only dwarves".

Then there is the fact that in many fantasy settings elves are known for their incredible artifacts and some of them have humans making them too so its not like dwarves have a monopoly on crafting in fantasy.

Also this kind of fidelity would be interesting once the myth arc gets in, if you set its to the max it would be interesting to see what combinations of strange mood tags the different creatures gen with, in those worlds there wont be any dwarves anyway so none of this dwarf based stuff should matter.

To be honest i wouldn't want animalpeople to be able to make artifacts either so the inclusion of other races feels a bit empty,

I personally would like to see the occasional animal person true artifact, I see no reason why a animal person who's tribe gets destroyed shouldn't be able to get a Macabre mood and make a amulet from the bones of their dead mate or child or get a fell mood where they want a specific persons (the killers) bones/skin for their artifact and quest for it, tracking the killer down so that they can make a loin cloth from their skin or something.

like other people have said there's always other achievements & objects to cherish and protect.

Do you mean for me as the player or for the creature?

If its me then sure there are other things, but I like options and don't really like dwarves, I always mod my games to play as humans, just like I always give elves and goblins max ages and remove the noeat/nodrink tags from goblins.

I personally look forward to when there is a reverse cave adaptation trait for humans and would like to have humans that only occasionally have strange moods, given that eventually humans and elves will be playable by default and that one simple change like [STRANGE_MOOD:ALL:100:SKILL] to only dwarves would result in no change to how the default game play but it would enable me to make humans that are are [STRANGE_MOOD:SECRETIVE:20:SKILL][STRANGE_MOODS:POSSESSED:20:PERSONAL] and other people to make what ever they want I see no reason not too.

If its the creature, well it seems artificial to say that no human could ever desire wanting to make an artifact, maybe very few want to and most of those that do want it fail but it should be possible.

I would also like to see a life goal "create magnum opus" and for it to quite literally mean that their goal is to make an artifact not just a master work, it is a much better match to the "rule the world" and "immortality", hell maybe even make that the condition for non dwarves to be eligible, every dwarf can make one but only non-dwarves who dedicate their live to it can make one.

That's just my opinion though.

Nothing wrong with that, but I think of it like this, Toady has said that he personally doesn't want a production line of +1 swords but that he's not against having the capacity for it in the game for those that do.

Quote from: Toady One
So letís say that we have a dwarf that understood how to apply runes of fire to a sword to make flaming swords, then assuming that process doesnít take twenty years Ė and that wouldnít be practical because games rarely last that long, or if they do itís a very dedicated process, itís not something you can expect a regular kind of casual or even not casual player to do, just sit there and play out a twenty year fort Ė then you have to wonder Ďwhy canít I just make a ton of flaming swords?í And thereís nothing necessarily wrong with that, to have all the dwarves that come from this fortress have these swords with these fire runes on them or something, but itís kind of a strange magical process if thatís what youíve got going on ... itís kind of depressing in a way if magic isnít mysterious. But at the same time you do have armies of magically armed creatures; itís not an unheard of thing, so you could be the ones doing that, itís just something that I wouldnít necessarily indulge in, especially as a default thing. I certainly donít have any problem if you can amp up your init options or your world parameter options more likely to be like Ďyeah my dwarves can float, and fly on carpets, and make big guns that shoot fire guns ...í

 link=http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_7_transcript_2.html

and in the (relativity) recent GDC myth gen video he make a jokes about rune stone factories when the myth gen made good conditions for one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8zwPdPvN10&feature=youtu.be&t=21m12s

I'll also quote what I said in the OP.

The Idea is simply to add variations of the strange mood tag so that not all (Real) artifacts are of dwarfish make and make it so that creatures other then Dwarves can have appropriate strange moods, either by default or for modding purposes, here an example of how I imagine it.


My request for this was inspired by the fact that Toady doesn't mind adding modding only options and that this little feature fits into the artifacts Arc more then any other Arc, nor does he mind allowing players to have their worlds be very different from his own ideals.

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KittyTac

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 01:07:37 am »

Animal people artifacts are best reserved for the time when they'll actually form tribes. Probably will be thrown in in the aftermath of myth and magic or laws and customs.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Little Feature: Veriable [STRANGE_MOODS] Tags
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 03:21:21 am »

Animal people artifacts are best reserved for the time when they'll actually form tribes. Probably will be thrown in in the aftermath of myth and magic or laws and customs.

I agree that they don't total sense right now for animal people, my whole stance is that making the strange mood tag have variables both fits the current Artifact Arc, that it would offer benefits to modder's and that it will have use in the myth and magic arc when on high magic setting your supposed to be able to get all kinds of crazy random things.

Like say a race that can only produce macabre artifacts because of its relation to death in myth gen

Sure you could leave this change until then but there also no reason it can't be one of the "little features" done during this arc, hence the title being "little feature".


I think I'll edit my OP to include more of my stance on this and why I think its fits, I honestly did not see this kind of opposition to the minor change of making it customizable.
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