Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[IndigoFenix]

Toady has mentioned before an interest in changing strange moods to make them more flexible and dynamic, rather than the very gamey system currently in place.  That being the case, I have thought up a possible new method for creating artifacts, by tying them to certain events that occur both in worldgen and in gameplay.

The new system would have three layers: Necessity of the artifact, relevance to the creator, and capability of the creator/race/civilization.

Short version: If Necessity of artifact * relevance of creator to event necessitating artifact > unit's capability threshold, unit can create an artifact.

Necessity

The basic concept is as follows: Instead of strange moods striking randomly, worldgen events create a "request" for an appropriate artifact.  Any event could potentially generate a request, but some would be tied to specific kinds of items.  For example:

Army is invading/War begins/individual killed by particular enemy - Generates a request for a legendary weapon, armor, or other combat-relevant item (if the enemy happens to be weak to a material, the weapon request will include that material in it)
Noble arises to a new position - Generates a request for any of their required furniture

Other events could be commemorative: Marriage, birth, death.  More "important" figures create a "stronger" request, making it more likely for an artifact to be created commemorating the birth of a king's son than, say, the death of a peasant.  But any worldgen-recorded event has the potential to generate a request.  The item for these "generic" commemoration events will generally be something preferred by the intended recipient, but these will be more flexible than the above two; it is possible the creator of the item will produce something they like instead.

Relevance

When a request for an artifact is generated, the game checks all units and sets a value for them based on how relevant the event is to them.  Close friends or family members of the commemorated individual receive a larger multiplier.  In the case of events generated by wars, individuals who have particular reason to hate the particular enemy (for example, a close friend was killed by them) may receive a multiplier as well.

Individuals who have an unfulfilled dream of creating a legendary artifact will receive a huge bonus for any artifact request.  This will replace the gamey "one artifact per unit, and that unit becomes instantly legendary" system; it will be possible for a skilled unit to create multiple artifacts but you'll still have many cases of someone creating their "life's work".

Relevance will also affect the decorations, materials, and name of the artifact.

Capability

After generating the relevance value (basically, how much the unit wants to create an artifact), the game then checks this value against the unit's ability to produce it.  This will be dependent on skill, love of crafts, the civ's own values, and possibly the availability of materials.  If the relevance of the request reaches a threshold of the unit to produce it, the unit will try to produce the artifact.

Instead of becoming legendary instantly by creating an artifact (a very gamey system), this will increase the chances of someone creating an artifact if their skill level is already high, which makes more sense.  (They can still gain a ton of bonus experience from doing it though).

Note that it will be difficult to achieve a sufficient level of relevance to reach the point of creating an artifact.  Pretty much the only way it can occur is if either A: the artifact's creator is at legendary skill level and the event is extremely relevant to them, or B: they have a dream of creating a legendary artifact.  This will keep artifacts rare and make it very unlikely for a unit to produce more than one artifact in their life, but it will still be possible.

Some effects of this system:

More flavor for artifacts - Artifacts will include the reason for their creation in their flavor text.

More logical artifacts - A king who likes marble and keas may have an artifact marble throne decorated with keas and depictions of his great deeds to commemorate their crowning, even though the king himself did not create it.  A smith whose wife was killed by a night creature vulnerable to silver may create a silver spear decorated with her favorite gems.  You'll still have the occasional artifact sock, but it will be made for an understandable reason; a wedding gift made by a tailor to their best friend who loves socks, for example.

More flexibility in who can create artifacts - Dwarves will still make the most artifacts, especially metal artifacts, because they love crafts and are good at smithing; they also have the most units with the dream of creating a legendary artifact, so the chances of an event's artifact request value exceeding the ability of a dwarf to create it is much higher than that of the other races; they may even create artifacts commemorating relatively mundane events.  But you'll get the occasional artifact item created by non-dwarves to commemorate particularly important events.

[Rockeater]

Interesting idea which can crate some good stories but faliure need to be balanced,It make no sense to go insane for not having glass for your brother wedding gift or staff like that.

[SixOfSpades]

Note that it will be difficult to achieve a sufficient level of relevance to reach the point of creating an artifact.  Pretty much the only way it can occur is if either A: the artifact's creator is at legendary skill level . . .

I have to disagree with this point, because I feel that the Legendary title should be reserved for events of, you guessed it, legendary importance, and the ONLY way a craftsdwarf should be able to achieve that would be through a mood. Regular skill-gain titles should be capped at Grand Master. (I mean heck, my current fort had 2 successful moods before it was even a year old. How "Legendary" can they be if there are dozens of them running around your fort?)

I also foresee a bit of a problem with making moods event-based: The most reasonable causes for extreme emotion would be 1) Moving to a new home, 2) Falling in love / getting married, 3) Childbirth, 4) Killing an enemy in combat, and 5) The death of a close friend or loved one. Events like the distant coronation of a new Queen, or successfully waiting out a siege, would have significantly less emotional impact. So the vast majority of artifacts would be created by a) The horde of migrants who flood your fort every season, b) The 5 mothers in the fort, who each crank out about 1 artifact per year, and c) Soldiers, who slay by the hundreds and occasionally lose a close companion. I'm not saying that your planned system is worse than the current one, I'm just pointing out that you seem to be achieving realism at the cost of variety.

But your other thoughts on moods seem sound. I don't quite agree with the entirety of your plan (if artifacts are created because a dwarf wants to make one, then all nobles would demand artifacts, because that's just what nobles do), but in general, all steps toward a more realistic system are appreciated.

[IndigoFenix]

Interesting idea which can crate some good stories but faliure need to be balanced,It make no sense to go insane for not having glass for your brother wedding gift or staff like that.

I assume that a less "gamey" system is planned anyway.  Instead of claiming a workshop and refusing to do anything until finishing the item or going insane, the unit in question could designate a high-priority task and have a persistent bad thought until they manage to finish it.  But that's not really relevant to this suggestion in particular.

Note that it will be difficult to achieve a sufficient level of relevance to reach the point of creating an artifact.  Pretty much the only way it can occur is if either A: the artifact's creator is at legendary skill level . . .

I have to disagree with this point, because I feel that the Legendary title should be reserved for events of, you guessed it, legendary importance, and the ONLY way a craftsdwarf should be able to achieve that would be through a mood. Regular skill-gain titles should be capped at Grand Master. (I mean heck, my current fort had 2 successful moods before it was even a year old. How "Legendary" can they be if there are dozens of them running around your fort?)

This makes sense, but it's more semantic than mechanical.  The point is that a practiced, expert artisan (whenever I think of a "legendary" unit in DF, I typically think of Gorō Nyūdō Masamune, the legendary Japanese swordsmith) creating several legendary items over the course of their life because they are so skilled makes more sense than a mildly talented nobody suddenly being randomly stricken with divine inspiration and creating a once-in-a-lifetime artifact, and then proceeding to make masterwork items for the rest of their life because they happened to make a legendary item once.

I would agree that for this to work sensibly, "Legendary" skill levels (someone who has the potential to create multiple artifacts) should be much harder to achieve than they are now.  Perhaps it would require both high amounts of experience and high natural skills, rather than simply being the result of training for a few years.

I also foresee a bit of a problem with making moods event-based: The most reasonable causes for extreme emotion would be 1) Moving to a new home, 2) Falling in love / getting married, 3) Childbirth, 4) Killing an enemy in combat, and 5) The death of a close friend or loved one. Events like the distant coronation of a new Queen, or successfully waiting out a siege, would have significantly less emotional impact. So the vast majority of artifacts would be created by a) The horde of migrants who flood your fort every season, b) The 5 mothers in the fort, who each crank out about 1 artifact per year, and c) Soldiers, who slay by the hundreds and occasionally lose a close companion. I'm not saying that your planned system is worse than the current one, I'm just pointing out that you seem to be achieving realism at the cost of variety.

This is the reason why the "dreams of creating a legendary artifact" bonus is so critical; it permits some degree of random variety while at the same time requiring some kind of logical trigger before an artifact is actually created.

If the aforementioned mother or soldier happened to be a legendary artisan as well they might produce several artifacts, but this would be a very rare occurrence.

[SixOfSpades]

I feel that the Legendary title should be reserved for events of, you guessed it, legendary importance, and the ONLY way a craftsdwarf should be able to achieve that would be through a mood. Regular skill-gain titles should be capped at Grand Master.

This makes sense, but it's more semantic than mechanical.

Agreed on the semantic aspect. To combine this with the suggestions from the "Uncanny" thread, I'd say that the skill-level name should be determined by the top of the dwarf's skill curve (the very highest quality she could randomly produce), as well as the bottom of the curve (the very lowest she could produce).
Top and bottom are both in the normal range? She has a normal title, from "Dabbling" to "Grand Master".
The top is extremely high, but the bottom is still normal (a condition achievable only through a mood)? She is "Uncanny".
Both top AND bottom are extremely high (achievable only by having a high rank AND a mood, in either order, OR by having a ridiculously high amount of experience)? She is "Legendary".
Combine that with an asymptotic skill curve (each successive level requires more & more work to attain), and Legendary dwarves would finally be as rare as (in my opinion) they should be.

Perhaps it would require both high amounts of experience and high natural skills, rather than simply being the result of training for a few years.

That's a worthy point, but I don't think poor natural abilities should outright prevent success, but rather be a discouragement to try (and keep trying) in the first place. Lots of people overcome innate difficulties; I've known a one-armed juggler. I would instead make applicable abilities like Kinesthetics put modifiers on the experience learned from performing each job, so that the gifted would learn faster, but backward klutzes could still learn--if they have the perseverance to stick with it.

The point is that a practiced, expert artisan creating several legendary items over the course of their life because they are so skilled makes more sense than a mildly talented nobody suddenly being randomly stricken with divine inspiration and creating a once-in-a-lifetime artifact, and then proceeding to make masterwork items for the rest of their life because they happened to make a legendary item once.

Very true. Although we must also consider the future--Toady One has either implied or outright stated (I forget which) that artifacts will have procedurally-generated magical properties. So you have to decide what you mean: if a Legendary dwarf has the ability to enter a Strange Mood because he wants to, that means he is a wizard, with the power to create magical objects.
I'm also not going to stop pushing for the Innovations plan, where Strange Moods (can) result in technological inventions/discoveries instead of magical artifacts. I personally believe that these ideas, the Myth & Magic arc, and the Scholarship Topics, could & should all be combined into a single overarching system.

The most reasonable causes for extreme emotion would be 1) Moving to a new home, 2) Falling in love / getting married, 3) Childbirth, 4) Killing an enemy in combat, and 5) The death of a close friend or loved one. . . . I'm not saying that your planned system is worse than the current one, I'm just pointing out that you seem to be achieving realism at the cost of variety.

This is the reason why the "dreams of creating a legendary artifact" bonus is so critical; it permits some degree of random variety while at the same time requiring some kind of logical trigger before an artifact is actually created. If the aforementioned mother or soldier happened to be a legendary artisan as well they might produce several artifacts, but this would be a very rare occurrence.

Soldiers who see a lot of death invariably become inured to it: Kadol didn't feel anything seeing a human die. Every dead sentient they see has less & less impact on their psyche. Mothers, on the other hand, seem to get the exact same euphoria boost from every baby, they never get used to it. In my opinion, this should be corrected: After enough kids, childbirth should be practically routine. Diminishing emotional returns seems a good way to limit dwarves going into Moods more than once from the same prompt. After all, if seeing your 1st slaughtered friend didn't motivate you to find a way to prevent further death, chances are your 101st won't either.
This doesn't fix the "problem" of potentially getting a wave of migrants, ALL of whom are overcome with the emotional stress of moving to a new home, and ALL of whom suddenly want to create artifacts, but if realistic embark restrictions are ever implemented (i.e., you can only embark within X distance of an existing settlement of your civilization), then the stress of migration should be greatly mitigated.