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Author Topic: Dom5 Round502 - Get back to work!  (Read 35880 times)

Endymion

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Re: Dom5 Round 502 - LA - Sign up hither
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2018, 09:33:58 am »

Alright, I'm gonna go ahead and commit to Man. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out a good reliable first few turns for them before the game starts.

Also since you are going to discuss connectivity, might I add in that the number of provinces to choose from in the early game influences the viability of some nations in the early game based on what percentage of indie camps a nation can confidently attack on turn 2. Average connectivity also influences the balance of nations with regards to resources available to forts, although this has been mitigated somewhat in Dom5 due to the new recruitment point system.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dom5 Round 502 - LA - Sign up hither
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2018, 10:51:46 am »

Thtb, you're sailing-heavy; LA Mari is coastal. Hence why I was talking about water-wanting rather than aquatic or amphibious. You lose a lot of tricks on a dry map.

I don't consider this a problem, but IIRC (can't check from here) that should be addressable in the map generation settings.

Nope. Not even a little; there's nothing in settings that addresses connectivity.

Argle-bargle. Do not post when half-asleep; the above is ofc completely wrong. The N/S and E/W Wraparound flags HUGELY impact connectivity, and they do so by taking provinces with some of the longest paths between them and making them neighbors. This dramatically reduces the possibilities for well-spaced capital placement - and it was also another metagame change that took place over Dom4 that largely avoided serious discussion as maps that were not at least E/W wrap basically stopped being made. Again, I'm inclined to blame the addition of ritual ranges - although TBH Valanis might also bear some blame with its very limited N/S connectivity and isolated cave system stigmatizing flat maps in many people's minds.

When the trend towards higher connectivity (to increase viable starting locations and reduce chokepoints) met with the trend towards full-wrap maps (to avoid bottlenecks and discourage turtling in "corners"), we ended up where we are now, and where the map generator reflects: densely connected maps with relatively short shortest paths between all provinces. On consideration, a lot of those map design preferences seem to be solutions aimed at either fixing or restoring Dom3's problems...

Doing a merely partial-wrap random would be much better for reducing connection density and increasing average shortest paths. I'd probably be okay with random as long as it was not full wrap.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 10:53:58 am by E. Albright »
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ThtblovesDF

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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 11:18:53 am »

Never finished a game with this nation, so we'll see.

I also vote against full wrap.

I like no wrap, too.

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Cruxador

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Re: Dom5 Round 502 - LA - Sign up hither
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2018, 12:43:20 pm »

Rather than encouraging turtling in corners, a non-wrapping map is a problem in that it reduces balance diplomatically. In Dominions, the main thing that will end you is being at war with multiple other nations who can focus their full attention on you. And a prerequisite to war is a shared border. That means that someone in the middle is in a more vulnerable position than someone on the edge, who is more vulnerable than someone in the corner. This is true whether you go on the initiative to attack or not. In fact, rather than turtling, the guy in the corner has the greatest ability to attack, since he knows that he can fully deploy his troops and his backside won't become vulnerable.
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E. Albright

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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 01:16:19 pm »

Yes, but the idea of "corners" is an illusion based on map graphics. We'd be better off not talking about corners. Dominions maps are undirected connected graphs (if I want to be excessively overly pedantic, they're weighted as well), not planes (which I know is obvious, especially as graphical area doesn't correspond to connections in any way). Talking about corners obfuscates the actual underlying structure of the map; they're not continuous unrestricted surfaces, they're a series of connected nodes. Every wrap-around map can be represented as a flat, unwrapped map and vice-versa. A good example of this general idea among existing maps is Ragnarok Comes.

It's true that having your back to the wall makes attacking easier, but that's not the traditional justification offered for rejecting unwrapped maps; it's anti-turtling. This is rarely more evident than when the "soft corners" afforded by water are being discussed...

And while the ability to be more easily piled on changes diplomacy, it does not necessarily make it better balanced; map design does that. If some parts of a map is densely connected ("wide open") but other parts are sparsely connected ("corners"), that creates the imbalance. However, if all players can get placed into a location where they are surrounded by provinces that are as interconnected as the other players' territory, in terms of balance it doesn't matter whether each province is connected to all the other provinces or two provinces. OTOH, if some players are placed nearly adjacent to other players, and some others are comparatively far from their nearest neighbor, that significantly unbalances diplomacy (as well as gameplay). So in practice, all other things equal, reducing connection density improves balance because of how the player placement functions [as well as conventional wisdom regarding map capacities]. If you want densely connected maps [which again, are very capable of being well-balanced maps], you need larger maps than what traditional wisdom about provinces per player (based on Dom3 and earlier sparsely connected maps w/o thrones) describes as the minimum viable numbers.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 01:43:37 pm by E. Albright »
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Cruxador

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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2018, 01:43:08 pm »

Yes, but the idea of "corners" is an illusion based on map graphics. Dominions maps are undirected connected graphs (if I had to be excessively overly pedantic, they're weighted as well), not planes (which I know is obvious, especially as graphical area doesn't correspond to connections in any way). Talking about corners obfuscates the actual underlying structure of the map; they're not continuous unrestricted surfaces, they're a series of connected nodes. Every wrap-around map can be represented as a flat, unwrapped map and vice-versa. We'd be better off not talking about corners.
Yeah but that's pointless semantics, you know what I mean. The fact that you can also have corners in the middle of the map with inopportune connection layouts doesn't mean a corner inherent to map structures ceases to be relevant, and if you're breaking the corner and edge effects by making node connections anyway, what's the difference from just making it wraparound?

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It's true that having your back to the wall makes attacking easier, but that's not the traditional justification offered for rejecting unwrapped maps; it's anti-turtling.
We come from different traditions, it seems. I've never seen anyone concerned with turtling at all. Since it's not an advisable choice at the grand strategy level, why be concerned about it?

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And while the ability to be more easily piled on changes diplomacy, it does not necessarily make it unbalanced; map design does that. If some parts of a map is densely connected ("wide open") but other parts are sparsely connected ("corners"), that creates the imbalance.
I'm not sure if you're intentionally restating my point for clarity or rhetorical purposes or if I was unclear, but yes. That's what I meant to convey. I was saying that these map situations are unbalanced because of their influence on your diplomatic position, though I may have been using the label of diplomacy more broadly than you; I meant it in this case to refer to number of actual wars and the number (and probability) of potential wars.

On a different note, I know you were trying to be very concise, but I don't think that definition of a corner is adequate. Many connections or few is not the relevant bit but rather that the places the corner region are connected to are all, of themselves, not distant from each other. After all, the relevant bit is the number of adjacent nations and nations are pretty much always contiguous. Except sometimes temporarily when dissected during war, but that is very rarely relevant at the grand strategy level.

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However, if all players can get placed into a location where they are surrounded by provinces that are as interconnected as the other players' territory, in terms of balance it doesn't matter whether each province is connected to all the other provinces or two provinces.
While this is true, it merely illustrates that your extreme case scenario isn't a useful reflection of gameplay. The difference in balance arises from randomness in placement when nodes are not connected in a homogeneous way, and the particular problem we're discussing is the heterogeneity introduced by edges and corners of the map which does not wrap. Because although it's true in the abstract that node connections are not spatial in nature, the map generator and human map makers both incorporate spatial relationships when creating the web of nodes that is technically the playable map.

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OTOH, if some players are placed nearly adjacent to other players, and some others are comparatively far from their nearest neighbor, that significantly unbalances diplomacy (as well as gameplay).
This is true but not tremendously relevant. Players are placed randomly in any case, and actual distances vary according to gameplay and happenstance; distances of capitals take secondary importance.
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Il Palazzo

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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2018, 02:07:06 pm »

Shoo, keep yer fancy-shmancy drama for later. The game hasn't even started yet.
If you won't decide on a nice and fun map soon enough, I'll just go and make one without asking anybody for opinion, like the arbitrary tyrant I am.
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E. Albright

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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2018, 02:08:01 pm »

Many connections or few is not the relevant bit but rather that the places the corner region are connected to are all, of themselves, not distant from each other. After all, the relevant bit is the number of adjacent nations and nations are pretty much always contiguous. Except sometimes temporarily when dissected during war, but that is very rarely relevant at the grand strategy level.

You're falling into the trap of thinking map graphics are significant here. "Distance" is not relevant, because a province cannot be connected to a distant province; it's literally contradictory. And that's not semantics, it's the fundamental point. Interconnectedness is what makes "corners"; if there is an area where there are few paths in and out (because the nodes in the area have few connections), it's a corner. If there is a balanced number of connections in all provinces, there are no corners, as corners in a gameplay sense are areas that are significantly (for some subjective measure of significance) less accessible than others (otherwise there's no real meaning to it).

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However, if all players can get placed into a location where they are surrounded by provinces that are as interconnected as the other players' territory, in terms of balance it doesn't matter whether each province is connected to all the other provinces or two provinces.
While this is true, it merely illustrates that your extreme case scenario isn't a useful reflection of gameplay. The difference in balance arises from randomness in placement when nodes are not connected in a homogeneous way, and the particular problem we're discussing is the heterogeneity introduced by edges and corners of the map which does not wrap. Because although it's true in the abstract that node connections are not spatial in nature, the map generator and human map makers both incorporate spatial relationships when creating the web of nodes that is technically the playable map.

You're getting stuck on map image. The image isn't relevant except as an abstraction and something pretty to look at. Again, look at Ragnarok Comes. It's a half-wrapped map that is very densely connected that behaves like a full-wrap map because of that density.

The map as a data structure has no edges or corners (in the cartographic sense, anyway). It's a connected series of nodes. The issue is not how the nodes are shown on a map (which can be wrapped or not, as the map-maker pleases; I yet again point to Ragnarok Comes), it's how densely connected the nodes are, and whether they're uniformly dense in their connections. If they are not uniformly dense, you'll have "corners" in the underlying nodes even if you wrap the map image.

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Players are placed randomly in any case, and actual distances vary according to gameplay and happenstance; distances of capitals take secondary importance.

This is false, and tremendously relevant. Players are placed procedurally, not randomly. The more players (and thrones) there are, and the more densely connected a map is, the harder it becomes to place all players at a "reasonable" distance without increasing map size.

--

Again, the relevant points are not the "shape" of the map, or whether it conceptually "wraps"; it's just node-to-edge density (province to connections in Dom terms) and shortest paths. If you want densely connected maps, then we need to move away from Dom3 conventions on what "good" map sizes are, because a map with high connectivity sets itself up very differently, in ways that very directly impact gameplay and often outcome, than a map with low connectivity and the same ratio of provinces per player.

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Edit:
Shoo, keep yer fancy-shmancy drama for later. The game hasn't even started yet.
If you won't decide on a nice and fun map soon enough, I'll just go and make one without asking anybody for opinion, like the arbitrary tyrant I am.

I'm fine with a half-wrapped or unwrapped random with 20-25% water by province count, or some nice non-Pymous crafted map.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 02:14:52 pm by E. Albright »
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Wysthric

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Re: Dom5 Round 502 - LA - Sign up hither
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2018, 02:15:08 pm »

Put me down for Utgard unless anyone else wants it.

Also can someone link me to the llamaserver and remind me - which files do I need to send to it?
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I'm Korbac. Not sure what happened to that account.

USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Dom5 Round 502 - LA - Sign up hither
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2018, 02:18:09 pm »

...

I was just about to claim Utgard. :v

I can pick a different nation though, if you really want Utgard.
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E. Albright

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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2018, 02:19:39 pm »

http://www.llamaserver.net/index.cgi

Send a pretender once the game is set to pretenders at llamaserver, with the game name in the subject.
Send your .2h files once the game is running to turns at llamaserver.
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Il Palazzo

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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2018, 02:26:57 pm »

Put me down for Utgard unless anyone else wants it.

Also can someone link me to the llamaserver and remind me - which files do I need to send to it?
I've put the multiplayer-relevant info in the OP.
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Wysthric

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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2018, 04:09:42 pm »

...

I was just about to claim Utgard. :v

I can pick a different nation though, if you really want Utgard.

Nope! Take Utgard. I'll be back!

I'll take C'Tis again.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 04:11:47 pm by Wysthric »
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I'm Korbac. Not sure what happened to that account.

E. Albright

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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2018, 04:45:34 pm »

[stuff]

We should take this discussion in some form to Dom5Mods; this isn't a great place for it but I think it's worth having. If I am coming across as hostile, I apologize; this back-and-forth here actually was very helpful in clarifying some messy and/or contentious points for me (even if I haven't communicated this or them well).

I'll try to come up with a clearer and more useful re-stating of my general premise and post it over there in the next day or so.
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a1s

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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2018, 04:46:10 pm »

There is one other trait ("real") corners have, and that is being adjacent to "sides", in other words not only does a corner have few connections, it's 1-st and 2nd degree neighbors do as well (if to a lesser degree) thus increasing the average (mean or median, as it will be both) distance (where distance is defined as the minimum amount of edges needing to be traversed to get from one vertex to another) from it to other nodes.
A single unconnected "corner" randomly generated in the middle (entirely turn of phrase) of a map will not have that quality.
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