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Author Topic: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!  (Read 4804 times)

Dorsidwarf

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2018, 08:02:07 am »

In dwarf fortress all creatures are actually a mass of floating body parts connected by skeins of invisible force, some inside of others, which is why you can target someone's third back left tooth then grab it with your toes and pin them while using a pike to stab their left ring finger.
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Urist Sonuvagimli

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2018, 07:24:32 am »

Can confirm the "twists the toe tearing lower leg apart". Here's straight example:

stab_o_doom" border="0
<a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>pic upload[/url]


Iron-armored, Superhuman Str, Endurance, Toughness adventurer. An Adequate level swordsman launched the puny deflected stab with a shit-quality short sword that bounced off the plate gauntlet... And instantly crippled the hand.

I would be content if this was a one-of-a-kind bad luck roll, but this happens all the time in fights. The only redeeming factor is that tendons torn this way heal back fully.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 07:26:18 am by Urist Sonuvagimli »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2018, 08:57:48 am »

Just recently I was hit in the eyelid with a sword hard enough to twist the head. Eyes are just fine though...
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Kars

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 07:52:25 pm »

Yeah, I guess the "warhammer to the head" was a bit of a bad example, but there definitely is a problem with it being too flimsy. I've been hit in the finger with a rock and had it tear my arm into pieces. I don't care much about realism or balance (as long as its not TOO bad) but the nervous tissue makes it really hard to justify armor or two handed weapons when I can focus purely on shields and dodging and have much better results

Edit: Also, with the warhammer example I meant it literally just took a love tap. I don't mean a hard swing or a lucky hit or a cyan (!) hit, just a Quick hit is enough. Taking someone out with a hit to the head from a warhammer through a helmet should be a bit more luck/skill/strength involved than that
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 07:55:11 pm by Kars »
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Rumrusher

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2018, 03:31:29 am »

Yeah, I guess the "warhammer to the head" was a bit of a bad example, but there definitely is a problem with it being too flimsy. I've been hit in the finger with a rock and had it tear my arm into pieces. I don't care much about realism or balance (as long as its not TOO bad) but the nervous tissue makes it really hard to justify armor or two handed weapons when I can focus purely on shields and dodging and have much better results

Edit: Also, with the warhammer example I meant it literally just took a love tap. I don't mean a hard swing or a lucky hit or a cyan (!) hit, just a Quick hit is enough. Taking someone out with a hit to the head from a warhammer through a helmet should be a bit more luck/skill/strength involved than that

well a Love tap in Dwarf fortress is when your Sparring with someone and lightly tap them which can't really get access too unless you dfhack a flag on your adventurer or the second best choice is Hitting someone with an item that Weights so light it phases through or applys no force at all(uhh kinda seen that there is such an attack where no force is applied and it was a push).
Everything else is hits going as hard as they can with mix amount of strength depending on if they are weak or insanely strong via attributes.
like there many Factors that are hidden in an attack that depends on the character's Raws,

like aren't quick attacks just fast not accurate but I don't know if it weakens the Attack.
probably an better example is seeing if a training hammer made out of the lightest wood being swung by a strength Attribute weak person will Rip someone's arm off with one swing?
like below average strength
so I figured why not experiment and screencap a study of what would be the Weakest attack where the Force multiplier would have no effect.
 here a hamsterman with a bronze maul swinging at a peasant while stealth in a quick attack.

here the hamsterman doing an attack on a finger at no attack modifiers

and the hamsterman's stats to show that yes they are grandmaster hammerer while having No strength at all.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
if there anything to (personally) learn from this is that yeah it seems like quick attack does Do less damage, and it possible for a grandmaster at a Skill Doesn't amp your hit to Murder or rip their limb just makes you able to hit them... or maybe that was the Stealth strikes clearing the difficulty of hitting that part.
also it seems like No force = didn't take any damage.

and a clear up to the no force bit here the wounds the peasant I was bashing with a maul.

might not be the weapons or skill but the characters your facing might be above average in strength to pull off feats like these... best treat everyone as secret hercs until Dfhack comes out and you can check otherwise.
or more SCIENCE is needed and not on the Adventurer side aswell. shoot this peasant probably insanely strong for all I know from the description.
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gnome

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2018, 05:42:43 am »

The only time I notice things like this is when there's a significant size difference between opponents, and imo that's exactly how it should be. Maybe I haven't experimented enough with hammers, though.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 11:28:56 am »

Your research is somewhat invalidated by the fact that you're using a hamsterman. We're referring in this case to fights between humanoids of roughly equal size.
The only time I notice things like this is when there's a significant size difference between opponents, and imo that's exactly how it should be. Maybe I haven't experimented enough with hammers, though.
But as I said, we have been noticing this in equal fights as well. Even really weak hits with crappy weapons used by lowly-skilled fighters that bounce off the armor anyway (like in Urist Sonuvagimli's case) are able to do completely disproportionate amounts of damage through twisting.
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Rumrusher

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2018, 05:13:03 pm »

oh I used a weak low strength hamsterman to see if the force multiplier is that strong that it could damage or probably kill someone so far it seems like it could just bruise skin.
given that folks kinda not showing off their characters(outside of that one person who said they got hit by a puny attack) and the idea that your all kinda playing folks with GODly amount of strength fighting folks of the same size would lead to limbs flying  off.
and vice versa on fighting npcs given their attributes are probably randomized or years of training would give them above average in strength.

so here the same test again but with a human of Grandmaster skill in hammering but lowest average human strength doing a quick attack.
from the looks of it kinda just messed with the wrist.

and the same attack on a different hand  without the quick attack modifier.

as it seems the human size and probably raw strength is probably great enough that the quick attack modifier doesn't seem to change the damage that much unlike the hamsterman, but the low strength did mitigate the attack to just bruising the wrist and not say ripping off the entire arm.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
though kinda feel like the force stuff cares about Strength attribute and not skill, having done both of the tests above with Grandmasters Hammermen at their lowest strength  though I can't say much about npc attacks as unless one has dfhack at the time of those attacks to check those characters strengths it's up in the air on whether they are hitting you like a hamsterman or a elephantman?
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bloop_bleep

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2018, 05:21:28 pm »

It didn't really "just bruise the wrist." It quite literally tore apart the wrist, thus causing the opponent to immediately drop his weapon, which is a death sentence most of the time. Try this with the same amount of strength and lower skill.
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Rumrusher

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2018, 07:24:50 pm »

It didn't really "just bruise the wrist." It quite literally tore apart the wrist, thus causing the opponent to immediately drop his weapon, which is a death sentence most of the time. Try this with the same amount of strength and lower skill.
bruising the wrist? oh poop I mean Bruising the Hand, the wrist seems to be bleeding.

also I really Really don't think Skill has a factor in damage just if you hit or not, the past 2 tests were to see if legendary like weaponlord with no strength could rip limbs off...
hmm probably going to save time Reusing this human adventurer and just shield bash as they got no skills in that than making a new adventurer with low strength, and even lower chance to Hit someone.

uhh well this adventurer got slap in the gut by a mace so kinda had to find another test subject to apply the No quick attack modifier shield bash to test the No to low skill on a low strength character.

and this time no force was applied just a bruised hand.

crud wait was I proving there no vanilla light tap in adventure mode only to see that there kinda is if you play an low strength adventurer and do a quick attack?  but was also wrong on skill not factoring as it seems shield bashing then again I probably should just Roll up a new adventurer in the off chance this isn't enough
Spoiler: test subject C (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: test subject C stats (click to show/hide)


I don't know what this data says, given to me DF attacks kinda always been the same outside of the addon to strong blunt attacks can cut/rip limbs off than just Bruise. so all weapons might be tough enough to do cutting damage if your Strong enough. like kinda wonder if the factor of Weapons and Items you wear can be destroyed in battle would mess with folks as Armor and weapons will deteriorate in a prolong battle...
also that I wish for a Spar toggle having seen how that would look through dfhacking it,

I'll end this test with smacking someone in the back of the head with a quick attack, and a normal attack with testsubject C
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Kars

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2018, 04:27:44 am »

I'll start posting my characters and doing more tests with actual adventurers once I can play again, I gave up video games for lent so I'm unable to do so right now :P sorry. It's not like balance is hard to necessarily destroy in DF so it's really not the biggest problem in the world, considering I could just play an elephant man and run around crushing everything effortlessly or play as a hamsterman and run around having the hardest game of my life if I really wanted an extreme end of either challenge. I just kinda miss that middle-ground challenge of setting up a hero Human/Elf/Dwarf, cause now it's either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard with not much in between
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Rumrusher

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2018, 06:59:05 am »

I'll start posting my characters and doing more tests with actual adventurers once I can play again, I gave up video games for lent so I'm unable to do so right now :P sorry. It's not like balance is hard to necessarily destroy in DF so it's really not the biggest problem in the world, considering I could just play an elephant man and run around crushing everything effortlessly or play as a hamsterman and run around having the hardest game of my life if I really wanted an extreme end of either challenge. I just kinda miss that middle-ground challenge of setting up a hero Human/Elf/Dwarf, cause now it's either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard with not much in between
there probably a middle ground some where in the vast Animal people who probably range in different sizes and strengths. though I say if there ever is a middle over time you get used to the struggles and it dips into easy.
Real glad to jump into this thread to do some science. it got me to see what happens when you Swing an bronze mace at someone Really fast as an hamsterman who trained in the art of the hammer.
Didn't realize there a way to simulate Sparring lightly tap someone that way.
also uhh gloves seem to not cover fingers on hits so I guess DF has Fingerless gloves/mittens.
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auzewasright

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2018, 09:15:52 am »

[...]with a warhammer[...]Smack someone on the head once and their spine rips up[...]even through steel helmets!
That's, uh, fairly reasonable, actually. Have you ever been hit on the head with a warhammer? Spoiler: It will kill you. A helmet does nothing to change the fact of the momentum being transferred through your skull to your neck tissue, which is why so many experts think bicycle helmets are pointless, for example.

If the helmet is properly padded it'll help a bit...but you're still going down if it's a solid hit from a strong (strong for a human) enemy. You won't have a crushed skull if you're wearing a good (i.e., STEEL) helmet, but you will probably not be standing back up for the rest of the day. Depending on where you're hit, of course, it might actually twist your neck far enough to snap it, but that'd take quite the hit to do.

It's not necessarily a one-hit kill (otherwise every late-medieval/Renaissance-period knight in full plate would've carried around a war hammer instead of a halberd or a name-your-medieval-pole-mounted-Swiss-Army-Knife-weapon), but if you let somebody get a solid hit in on you, you're going to feel it.
Most had neck armor, before plate armor, maces and war hammers were common weapons.
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Madman198237

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2018, 10:25:49 am »

But they weren't?

Maces, yeah, sometimes, but war hammers became common almost exclusively as a response to the prevalence of plate armor. Also, what the heck does neck armor have to do with the twisting of the neck through a strike to the head?

Also, mail (which is what most neck-covering armor is made of, until the very, very late-period invention of things like the gorget) won't stop a strike from a blunt weapon. The padding behind it might help, but not on the neck, it's too thin there.
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Rumrusher

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Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2018, 11:42:52 am »

Oh yeah doesn't getting hit in the head causes the Brain to bounce around in the skull which might lead to death or a knock out... or Dwarf fortress Form of brain damage?
which now ponder how does a Werebeast handle Brain damage? regenerating head trauma sounds like a hellish nightmare.
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