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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 410194 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1110 on: October 24, 2018, 08:57:17 pm »

2 questions:

When you talk about silly additions, what do you mean?   My experience with previous additions is that the silly stuff is normally caused by weird interactions between recently fleshed out systems and systems that are still placeholders.

As Dwarf Fortress gets more complex, how do you check for bugs?  It seems too complex to exhaustively search the event space, but just turning it on and seeing what pops out seems likely to miss things.  Maybe I should specifically ask how you came to check what happened to the trade warehouse when the fortress got hit by a forgotten beast?
"Silly" additions just meant that, as usual, he was taking things a little too far. Adding so many interactions to the world to support his villains. Merchants, religion, crime, etc. But as he said, that helps produce a deep meaningful system.

Please keep being silly Tarn (fix stress too, sure, but silly is good).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 08:59:27 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Hinaichigo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1111 on: October 24, 2018, 11:53:22 pm »

You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?

edit: removed green coloring because it was addressed
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 02:17:38 am by Hinaichigo »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1112 on: October 25, 2018, 12:59:08 am »

You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?
Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...

But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1113 on: October 25, 2018, 01:32:57 am »

You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?
Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...

But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
It can be FBs.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1114 on: October 25, 2018, 09:00:53 am »

You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?
Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...

But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
It can be FBs.
Yup. Quick look at Legends (44.12 generated world) reveals tons of Forgotten Beast attacks on sites (seems to be all fortresses) during worldgen. Where did you hear they don't attack in worldgen, Hinaichigo? Is it something that needs correcting on the wiki?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1115 on: October 25, 2018, 09:53:10 am »

It was just a mistake it seems, but the density of forgotten beasts & megabeast attacks in mountain ranges are pretty high as it is, which makes some dwarf civilizations prone to losing the mountainhome & subsequent other market fortresses early on or going extinct & refugee particularly.

Dark Fortresses are also underground by site-type, but can't be targeted by forgotten beasts due to it being explicitly exposed to somewhere else down the winding paths. Its how they collect trolls natively with [USE_EVIL_CREATURES].


Q - What kind of conditions need to be met before companies* manage to shake hands with dwarves and set up a building belonging to another race in the middle of a market town?

Q - Do organisations present in other civilisations go any further towards the modularity of cities pre-site rewrite development goals? Much in the mind that a long time ago you released development pictures of how villages are formed out of preset pieces but arranged appropriate to population sprawl with space for fields etc. Now we have more structures like these warehouses placing themselves between everything.

*(to keep the answer simple rather than addressing other 'organisations')

I mention this because dwarves and humans tend to be pretty friendly anyway, building roads between one another and regularly taking in adventurer traffic compared to elves who are warlike over cultural dogma and aggrieve other civilisations against them for repulsive habits. There would be circumstances where through player interaction the company's trade would break down if the player took action though right?

The only other example where this happens I can think of is when enemy civilisations decide to build fortifications over a site, like goblin trenches (which don't really do anything to boost positional advantage last time i noticed) usually as a occupier, rather than a voluntary action with overlapping stakes & shares in a city.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 02:52:47 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Beag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1116 on: October 25, 2018, 05:29:10 pm »

1. With human religious groups getting revamped will priests in temples offer religious conversions again?
2. What intrigue quests/interactions do you have in mind for player adventurers to do with religious groups if any?
3. Will elven religion get it's own share of intrigue work? Maybe involving the closest equivalent position they have to a priest, aka druid?
4. In terms of general intrigue and plots in what ways will religious groups interact with other groups both good, evil and neutral?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 09:55:54 pm by Beag »
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Goonts

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1117 on: October 25, 2018, 06:25:52 pm »

I have three-ish questions.
1. How raw oriented are the new companies/religions/organizations? While I expect it is mostly hard coded, will they respect ethics and values? Like an elf company refusing to buy or sell wood, or a civilization who is absolutely disgusted by commerce completely lacking companies in the first place.
2.Would an organization that was controlled by a villain or completely corrupted by a villain's plot act villainous? Killing a villain is one thing, but killing an entire evil corporation or cult is another thing entirely.

3. In the absurd case that this does happen (potential bugs notwithstanding), could your entire fortress be roped into a villainous plot and you remain blissfully unaware?
I realize that it may be too early to say if these sorts of things will make the cut before the Big Wait, but can't hurt to ask.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1118 on: October 25, 2018, 10:04:58 pm »

I have three-ish questions.
1. How raw oriented are the new companies/religions/organizations? While I expect it is mostly hard coded, will they respect ethics and values? Like an elf company refusing to buy or sell wood, or a civilization who is absolutely disgusted by commerce completely lacking companies in the first place.
2.Would an organization that was controlled by a villain or completely corrupted by a villain's plot act villainous? Killing a villain is one thing, but killing an entire evil corporation or cult is another thing entirely.

3. In the absurd case that this does happen (potential bugs notwithstanding), could your entire fortress be roped into a villainous plot and you remain blissfully unaware?
I realize that it may be too early to say if these sorts of things will make the cut before the Big Wait, but can't hurt to ask.
1) Humans have pretty flexible ethics, being fond of both slavery and tree murder. Probably not an issue as it seems to be only humans right now. Hopefully values are taken into account with the more knowledge loving human civs spawning mobile libraries (etc).

3) Seems more like something for Starting Scenarios, which will more define your site's relationship with the outside world.
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Hinaichigo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1119 on: October 26, 2018, 02:16:35 am »

You mentioned in the 10/23/2018 devlog post that a forgotten beast attacked a fortress. Was this in worldgen? To my knowledge, forgotten beasts don't come out from underground during in worldgen in the current version (0.44.12). Or was this during post-wg fortress mode?
Underground is where dwarf fortresses are...

But, hmm. Sure I've seen forgotten beast attacks in worldgen. Must check my worlds histories later. Maybe its always megabeasts.
It can be FBs.
Yup. Quick look at Legends (44.12 generated world) reveals tons of Forgotten Beast attacks on sites (seems to be all fortresses) during worldgen. Where did you hear they don't attack in worldgen, Hinaichigo? Is it something that needs correcting on the wiki?

I see. I've never noticed it personally I guess.
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Real_bang

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1120 on: October 26, 2018, 09:07:38 am »

1. Will villains continue doing their evil stuff after worldgen is finished? I wonder if i can start an adventurer and just pass over some villain like necromancer, will he continue doing his netbuilding/getting corpses/etc. so when i come back to this plot it would be even in worse case than when i first saw it? Will we be able to observe bandits attacking targeted people?
2. Will some villain plots be solved by someone else (at least in worldgen)?
3. You mentioned small crimes so should we expect prison/courthouse type of buildings where they will go if being caught? Or this will be worked on later in law arc?
4. Will you fix fortress retirement before the big wait?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 04:26:48 am by Real_bang »
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Renarin21

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1121 on: October 27, 2018, 09:42:44 am »

1. Will plotting/intrigue mechanics ever be generalized and used by non-villains, for non-villainous ends?
2. I know we won't be able to go to other planes in the near future, but will there be cases where other planes can overlap with the normal world? Like a haunted area where the veil between the living and the afterlife is thin, or (in an extreme case) a throne room for a deity that (in theory) simultaneously exists in multiple planes.
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Eschar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1122 on: October 27, 2018, 11:38:01 am »

Dark Fortresses are also underground by site-type, but can't be targeted by forgotten beasts due to it being explicitly exposed to somewhere else down the winding paths.

So sites have a tag for spoiler connections?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1123 on: October 27, 2018, 11:42:58 am »

Dark Fortresses are also underground by site-type, but can't be targeted by forgotten beasts due to it being explicitly exposed to somewhere else down the winding paths.

So sites have a tag for spoiler connections?

Not visibly anyway, sites do not have tags or any form of editable RAW entry but you could consider that a quirk.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1124 on: October 27, 2018, 03:51:59 pm »

1. Will plotting/intrigue mechanics ever be generalized and used by non-villains, for non-villainous ends?
Yes. From this month's FotF:

Quote
Quote
iceball3
Another question: concerning "villainous plots", are the long term plans for these specifically to develop antagonists that can make clearly defined epics that the player can easily role play into? Or will the moralities and intentions of ambitious individuals start to become more ambiguous and diverse as ongoing development gives such actors more reasons to perform at odds with larger authorities?
Yeah, "villainous plots" is the current framing, and a handy enough way to think about it, and the starting plots are going to be more on the corrupt/etc. side of things, but even now, some of it can be viewed more as "spy vs. spy" or as a tale of vengeance (which has whatever moral shade) or paranoia.  The mechanics will apply to everybody operating in this sphere over time, as things become more interesting.  It's just easier to start with the straightforward stuff, and easier to make it player-facing.
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