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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 382748 times)

Grand Sage

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1455 on: January 21, 2019, 08:10:40 pm »

Do they not currently get the title "lord" in Adv. mode? I thought they did, since they can appoint hearhpersons.
Lords are a completely different type of Noble from a Baron. Barons are dwarven positions. The humans have lords and such.

And by extension, your little adventurer sites are proly not making you landholder because the civ entity is proly not smart enough to understand how land ownership works because... it is a type of resource and thus related to economy and law/property/customs. That said it'll be interesting to see when that comes in. Getting assassins because a Baron has decided your site is where they want to chuck down their castle.

I was answering the question about adv. sites making you a landholder. since "lord" is the human landholder title, that seemed relevant.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1456 on: January 22, 2019, 03:19:43 am »

Lord is a default hardcoded title, its variable really, since you can have a self-imposed lord of goblin pits if the goblin civilization splits off into autonomous groups of the same entity, typically happening in this circumstance, especially amongst humans.

Easy way to pick out divided civs is that they'll usually have a different symbol to the rest of the civ but be classed within it (like how your civ varies compared to the mountainhome) im not sure what causes this but typically it happens when the demon lord is deposed but not nessecarily killed because the capital is routed, and then within the spate of time it takes for them to reclaim goblins start forging their own groups through force of arguement.
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Nopenope

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1457 on: January 22, 2019, 08:49:28 am »


Since you are working along the usual worldgen -> post w.g. -> adventure -> fortress cycle, which ones of the following features are more likely than not to make it to fortress mode (I'm basing myself off your devlogs since the last release):

1. Advanced romance (divorces, rejections, triangles, jealousy, simultaneous partnerships, remarriages, children outside wedding, etc)
2. Dwarven mounts
3. Visitor agents that are part of villain networks, and/or villain citizens
4. Plots to obtain positions (mayor, baron, etc.) or artifacts
5. Assassinations, kidnapping, theft, insurrection, tips for invasion as a result of these plots
6. "Intrigue skill" or loyalty being relevant and/or trainable
7. Sending agents of your own, capturing or killing the villain offsite
8. False identities for agents, villains and other non-vampire migrants/visitors
9. Advanced friendships (people becoming war buddies or childhood friends in your fort, or war buddies/childhood friends arriving together as migrants, etc)
10. Advanced crimes (corruption, embezzling, blackmailing, sabotage)
11. Athletic competitions
12. Appointable new positions (keeper of the seal, royal justiciar, master of beasts, etc.)
13. Foreign trading outposts, and/or being able to send trading outposts offsite
14. Prophets and/or priests arising from temples or arriving as visitors
15. Religion conversion, priesthood positions/occupations
16. Monastic orders


EDIT: to clarify, I'm asking about whether they'll be implemented in fort mode as an actual gameplay element, and in this upcoming release (or at least in subsequent passes, before the big wait, in one of the minor incremental/bugfix ones)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 10:58:31 am by Nopenope »
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1458 on: January 22, 2019, 09:00:39 am »

11 was in a lot longer and is unlikely to be further developed(they're part of worldgen festivals), 2 was asked about already and that it needed a better handling of mounts first.

5 is explicitely the point of this devarc. 8 Already exists.

9. I don't think we'll see  the reason for friendships forming on the relationship screen, so the only thing that'll happen is that people show up as friends to begin with when they come to your fort, much like how families work. (Though it'd be nice to have it be discoverable somehow during fort mode play)

13 to 16 are very likely not to show up, as they're the definite bloat of this worldgen stuff :p

rest: No idea :p
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1459 on: January 22, 2019, 10:45:18 am »

11 was in a lot longer and is unlikely to be further developed(they're part of worldgen festivals), 2 was asked about already and that it needed a better handling of mounts first.

5 is explicitely the point of this devarc. 8 Already exists.

9. I don't think we'll see  the reason for friendships forming on the relationship screen, so the only thing that'll happen is that people show up as friends to begin with when they come to your fort, much like how families work. (Though it'd be nice to have it be discoverable somehow during fort mode play)

13 to 16 are very likely not to show up, as they're the definite bloat of this worldgen stuff :p

rest: No idea :p

Actually 13 and 11 are planned. In fact tarn specifically said he wants adventurers to be able to participate at least a bit in the festivals.

Monastic orders obviously would improve adventure mode and fort mode. And I think Tarn has mentioned it before and how it would be neat. But not specifically planned.(though they are already partially there, as we have wandering monks and such and a similar question has been asked already and answered by tarn)
Hereís his answer btw: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7908715;topicseen#msg7908715
Quote
Yeah, therahedwig's point on motivation is the important one.  Here, the monks don't engage actively in account building activities, and they aren't generally position holders (if I recollect, being a monk and a position holder in some other entity are mutually exclusive, but I might be wrong.)  Now, if we tracked the regular economic activity and impact and resources of subgroups, we could do more here.  The merchant companies and guilds are special examples which have small placeholder mechanics to build entity accounts on top of member accounts.  Not sure quite what else we'll get as I finish up the villains.

13 especially is planned. He wants you to be able to send trade carts off site.  And for adventurers to be able to have their own trade carts/hired merchants/able to be a guard for them. He talks about this in the DF talks. I donít know how they would be a bloat in world gen since they would actually be a part of history gen and be in play which are completely separate from world gen. Bloat in world gen would be like adding erosion.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 11:01:59 am by Untrustedlife »
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1460 on: January 22, 2019, 01:15:31 pm »

Sure those things are planned for eventually, but he was asking for villain update fort mode.

9. Advanced friendships (people becoming war buddies or childhood friends in your fort, or war buddies/childhood friends arriving together as migrants, etc)
I don't think they actually are "advanced". It's more the opposite, the childhood friend/ war buddy stuff are basic conditions that spawn friendships during world gen to create more links between people for villains to abuse. In fort mode friendships can come up potentially all the time, not just in those predefined situations. I guess he could make friendships that are formed between children and between squad members show up as "childhood friend"/ "war buddy" in the relationship screen, but that sounds like a bunch of extra coding for a tiny amount of extra flavor though.
But Toady did say that he was gonna look at fort mode friendships after the villain update.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1461 on: January 22, 2019, 03:48:21 pm »

Yeah, I read the question as being about the current devcycle, bloat in this case being 'yes it might help the features in question, but was it really necessary right now?' :p

Though, thinking it through, we'd see expanded religion in the myth arc anyway for obvious reasons.
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Grand Sage

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1462 on: January 22, 2019, 07:30:45 pm »

from readng the devlog, im fairly sure that 14 and 15 are already done or partially done, and will be in the next update.
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Hapchazzard

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1463 on: January 22, 2019, 09:51:26 pm »

EDIT: Since the latest development update mentioned upcoming work on villain hideouts, I thought I'd ask some pertinent questions first:

1. I don't imagine it makes sense for bandit forts to have fine granite walls, barring edge scenarios. Will palisades and other such ramshackle fortifications possibly be making an appearance, and see utilization at other types of sites, too? (villages, minor forts, watchtowers, etc)
2. Are there plans for the possibility of 'overlapping sites' - for example, a bandit hideout at the mouth of a cave or the entry levels of a ruin, cities built atop the remains of much older settlements, etc. in the somewhat foreseeable future? Is this something that the update will try and tackle, or is it far too difficult in scope to shoehorn into the update?
3. Was there some specific reason for castles being removed in the first place? (perhaps someone that's been around here longer than me might also have the answer to that question)
4. What kind of size variety do you anticipate for castles?
5. Similarly, do you have any ballparks as to how frequent you want castles to be in a typical human civilization? Having just 3-4 castles in an average civilization would seem a bit odd, seeing as generic-western-fantasy-kingdoms tend to be littered with castles, and this applies to real-life countries, too (those that built them, at least).

Now, my myth & magic questions:

1. Will there be some kind of sanity system beyond the current strange moods, eventually?
2. Are there plans to make 'forbidden knowledge' a thing? As in, knowledge that has an inherent mental effect on anyone who discovers it and doesn't have a strong enough willpower to resist it's effects. Knowledge not meant for mortal minds causing mental degradation, despair, existential dread, unnatural obsessions, etc. is a fairly common trope in fantasy. If this is in the cards, do you have any ideas on how it would be determined what snippets of knowledge are significant enough to warrant mental effects?
3. Speaking of strange moods - what is the long-term plan for them? Will the eventually be scrapped with an entirely different system?
4. Will the player somehow be conveyed the mundaneness of the magic their character is seeing? i.e. being conveyed that the fireball spell the enemy mage is using is very common and run-of-the-mill, versus it being some extremely strange, novel spell that they've never even thought to be possible up until now?
5. Will NPCs be able to react in various ways to magic, depending on their own experience and knowledge of the arcane arts? I can see something like this being especially interesting in low-magic worlds. Stuff like:
-Peasants/townfolk that have never seen magic crowding around someone doing sorcery in public in fascination, or alternatively running away in terror
-Being able to prove your magical capabilities to skeptical individuals, with a wide range of reactions depending on the skeptics' personality
-Authority figures receiving rumors of powerful enough (again, depending on the level of magic in the world) mages, and potentially sending emissaries to offer employment
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 11:35:50 am by Hapchazzard »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1464 on: January 22, 2019, 09:54:04 pm »

from readng the devlog, im fairly sure that 14 and 15 are already done or partially done, and will be in the next update.
Prophets actually already come to your taverns as visitors, so that bit at least is done.

Religious conversion isn't likely before Mythgen though, I imagine. Remember nothing has been done in Fortress mode yet. So while you may get a migrant/visitor who was converted to a religion once someplace else, that's different from an actual mechanic in which a priest approaches dorfs in a player tavern and converts them through whatever means they have. And whatever reactions dorfs may have to such attempts.

Quote
1. Right now, villains seem to be largely of the "conniving schemer" variety
Hapchazzard, did you forget to write your question here?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 10:05:04 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Hapchazzard

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1465 on: January 23, 2019, 11:35:50 am »

from readng the devlog, im fairly sure that 14 and 15 are already done or partially done, and will be in the next update.
Prophets actually already come to your taverns as visitors, so that bit at least is done.

Religious conversion isn't likely before Mythgen though, I imagine. Remember nothing has been done in Fortress mode yet. So while you may get a migrant/visitor who was converted to a religion once someplace else, that's different from an actual mechanic in which a priest approaches dorfs in a player tavern and converts them through whatever means they have. And whatever reactions dorfs may have to such attempts.

Quote
1. Right now, villains seem to be largely of the "conniving schemer" variety
Hapchazzard, did you forget to write your question here?

Oh yeah, that's a bit embarrassing. I've kind of realized the answer to my own question as I was writing it, but then went on to write my other questions and forgot to delete the initial unfinished question. Thanks for the heads-up!
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Real_bang

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1466 on: January 24, 2019, 05:50:57 am »

With bandits receiving bandit forts and bugs being fixed will we be able to finally complete quests on destroying bandit camps? Same goes to criminals in town catacombs
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1467 on: January 24, 2019, 11:19:22 am »

Hm... that one is caused by the game just not being able to register entities as completely empty, isn't it? I suspect that murdering out a bandit camp might then take until entities are reworked.

On the other hand, depending on how much justice is fleshed out you might just instead capture bandits and bring them to a jail?

Do you think we'll see adventure mode jails to go with our villains and the interrogation of them? Like, I can understand there's just too little to do the full range of crime and punishment, but I am currently having a vision of bringing a villain to a law enforcer, and then the law enforcer go 'cool, yes we were looking for this guy' and then lets the villain go because law enforcer is an adventure mode npc who doesn't know what to do with law breakers.

BTW: Guys, the devpage got updated. 'Assassinations of position-holders' is now purple ;)
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1468 on: January 24, 2019, 12:42:06 pm »

Its much the same for razing, i hope that routing for them to settle new sites is a more pernament solution, given that like running water, migrants will cross distances or even claim a 'ruined' site that's egible in less than a day, roughly by the time it takes for your squad to run back from razing the site you attacked. I've been watching them post generation crossing half the map of a medium sized world.

On the other hand, depending on how much justice is fleshed out you might just instead capture bandits and bring them to a jail?

BTW: Guys, the devpage got updated. 'Assassinations of position-holders' is now purple ;)

Though i haven't seen any form of bandit/hostile small group related behaviour since hyena-men livestock raids in version 30. therabouts nor do i make a compulsive habit of settling too close to bandit egible civs, being a bandit themselves isn't nessecarily a crime, and at present you can't forcibly arrest people who haven't been reported to the authorities unless you catch them in other ways like traps.

Your question preceeding overcoming these obstacles, and yes that dev-goal update is very nice, looking foward to digging through the upcoming content when it lands.
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Aid

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1469 on: January 24, 2019, 04:10:56 pm »

Sorry for my English, it's hard to be a Dwarf Fortress fan who knows English badly,
and so my questions are:
1.1 Will in the game, pantheon of the gods united from the very beginning of the generation of the world, or united by the faith of people?
1.2. Will the gods place where they are most of the time, such as the Ancient Greek in Olympia?
1.3. Can the gods have a relationship and can they have children?
1.4. May be the main gods in their pantheon of gods, for example Zeus in Olympus, may be villains plans for the power struggle?
1.5 Can there be wars between the pantheons. Will people come to war for their faith, on the contrary, God will enter into a war for those who believe in him, this will give a little balance because demons in goblins can kill a hundred for the battle?
2. You will test all updates with a magical release?
3. Is it possible to do something like gladiatorial battles to death, or just for training. Or to make a different type in different worlds or kingdoms as a tournament every 5 years and with the reward for determining the best warrior, and in the other is generated so that once a year, random creatures in the worl are battling to death, here's a lot to come up with the release of magical releases. Especially if they could have been an adventurer
I hope someone understands my Google Translate
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:12:59 pm by Aid »
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