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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 478490 times)

Magistrum

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2175 on: June 24, 2019, 08:29:46 pm »

that covers almost anything, or at least the basic stuff?
All the affordable insurance plans won't pay for anything, mostly they just throw in a few coins if you cry enough.
They usually don't cover everything involved in a treatment either. For example, covering the surgery, but not the anesthesia or the operation room use. Covering hospital stay but not nurse service and post-op medication.
To top it of, after you went through all your trouble and got a top-notch plan they will tell you that one of the providers involved are not included in their service network and you get stuck with the full bill of the individual service.

I thought Brazil had it rough.
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In a time before time, I was David The Master.

falcc

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2176 on: June 25, 2019, 11:43:17 am »

Sorry for the barrage, I just had a lot of pet thoughts recently.
1) Did villains end up with plots to steal pets?
2) Can you give animals to people in order to earn their favor?
3) If people see an animal they like is hanging out with you in adventure mode, will their improved mood make them any more amenable to talking with you or traveling with you?
4) Before the big wait, will people talk more about their favorite animals, colors, foods, and art styles?


Right now you can parse out if somebody likes a tone of music based on their responses, which is WILD, but it's hard to get much of a personality picture in adventure mode even with extended interactions since they don't need to eat or anything.

5) Can you ride a horse that isn't yours? If you jump on a horse that isn't yours, what does the horse think? What do people of the village it belongs to think about it? What about if you didn't tell it to leave but just sat there, just having landed on someone's horse? Is that like being seen in sneak mode?
6) If you start with a bunch of cows with your adventuring group, are they all pets, or can you just have a herd's worth of food to live off of through the barren winter months?
7) Where does it draw the pool of embarkable adventure mode animals from? Could that pool be expanded through the concentrated efforts of the player, either in adventure mode or through domesticating in fortresses?
8 ) Can adventurers enact the cattle raid style missions they can currently do if they retire in a fort?
9) What if, hypothetically, an adventurer leapt onto a dragon? What if it'd been tamed by a fortress, or was a dragon of a group not at war with the player's civilization? What if it *hadn't* been tamed by a fortress? What does the dragon think about all this and could it ever end well for the player with an extremely good animal handling roll and some foreplanning?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2177 on: June 25, 2019, 12:03:21 pm »

@falcc: I don't know much about adventure mode, so this is guesswork:
7: I'd expect it to be your civ. A civ's pool of resources is determined at the placement of the starting site currently, and I see no "villain" reason to change that now (suitable for the economy arc?). Currently fortresses cannot domesticate animal species. They can increase the training knowledge level, and that trickles back to the civ at a very slow pace, but it can never reach the domesticated level.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2178 on: June 25, 2019, 09:12:24 pm »

that covers almost anything, or at least the basic stuff?
All the affordable insurance plans won't pay for anything, mostly they just throw in a few coins if you cry enough.
They usually don't cover everything involved in a treatment either. For example, covering the surgery, but not the anesthesia or the operation room use. Covering hospital stay but not nurse service and post-op medication.
To top it of, after you went through all your trouble and got a top-notch plan they will tell you that one of the providers involved are not included in their service network and you get stuck with the full bill of the individual service.

I thought Brazil had it rough.

That thoroughly sucks. Here it used to be that you payed X amount monthly and you got an X coverage on virtually anything. I.e. more than once I got treated on the e.r. with 0 charge. Then bougth the medicines from my pocket but with the invoices claimed full reimbursement. Each time you used it, it eat of the total coverage but then there were special extensions that activated on special circumstances (surgery, hospitalization, ambulance services) which were several times the total coverage.

The only thing it didn't covered was dental.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2179 on: June 25, 2019, 09:28:17 pm »

Can we maybe move this discussion to a separate thread if it needs to go on? Not to seem rude or domineering, I'm just getting a bit tired of having to read through complaints about finances that seem only marginally related to the FotF. Though I definitely understand why it concerns people.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 09:51:47 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2180 on: June 26, 2019, 02:04:07 am »

I agree. The question has been raised, the rest, well, the forum is large enough to have this discussion elsewhere, as interesting and important as it is.
And I'm not trying to sound rude or domineering, but just...please ?
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EternalCaveDragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2181 on: June 26, 2019, 10:12:49 am »

Got a few questions for this time around. Please pardon any repeats of others' questions:

1. I recall there was an elf from a dev log who was notable for multiple simultaneous lovers and affairs. What sort of personality traits/orientation results would bring about such an outcome. Did you look into why that was?

2. A question for later down the line, but, do you have any preliminary ideas on how you want to implement boats? Aside from simply implementing them, of course. I ask because the possibility of having some control over what they look like would be a big bonus for me.

3. In regards to the court/household positions, do they appear anywhere outside of world gen/legends mode? And are they moddable in any way currently?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2182 on: June 26, 2019, 05:14:04 pm »

Got a few questions for this time around. Please pardon any repeats of others' questions:

1. I recall there was an elf from a dev log who was notable for multiple simultaneous lovers and affairs. What sort of personality traits/orientation results would bring about such an outcome. Did you look into why that was?

2. A question for later down the line, but, do you have any preliminary ideas on how you want to implement boats? Aside from simply implementing them, of course. I ask because the possibility of having some control over what they look like would be a big bonus for me.

3. In regards to the court/household positions, do they appear anywhere outside of world gen/legends mode? And are they moddable in any way currently?

On boats:
https://www.pcgamer.com/why-the-creator-of-dwarf-fortress-is-really-excited-about-boats/
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EternalCaveDragon

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« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 03:09:58 pm by EternalCaveDragon »
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Beag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2184 on: June 27, 2019, 03:07:02 pm »

Since villains will now be able to send messages in some cases will their messengers also have to be in on the plot or would the messages be delivered in written form like letters to keep the messenger oblivious?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2185 on: June 27, 2019, 04:34:41 pm »

Since villains will now be able to send messages in some cases will their messengers also have to be in on the plot or would the messages be delivered in written form like letters to keep the messenger oblivious?
I might be wrong, but "abstractly" in this case probably means there won't be  a messenger. Just an incriminating message. The messengers system doesn't go beyond Player Fortress to Player Hillocks yet and doesn't seem to have been expanded (might still be though, I guess).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 04:36:59 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Aid

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2186 on: June 28, 2019, 03:14:46 pm »

Hi Tarn, you will change the mode of legends for release in Steam, if so it will be adding a mouse scroll or something more complicate?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2187 on: June 29, 2019, 06:06:17 am »

Hi Tarn, you will change the mode of legends for release in Steam, if so it will be adding a mouse scroll or something more complicate?
Tarn should be able to give a more complete answer, but we know that most parts of the gui are being looked at for the steam release, and that mouse support will likely be omnipresent. Zach is currently working on redesigning these menus, so if he has gotten to the legends mode already I suppose there could already be a close-to-finished concept.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2188 on: June 29, 2019, 10:04:03 pm »


(In the upcoming release) - Will villaneous adventurers be able to send messages to their minions too? Or are we limited to direct interactions with our party members? I can see how it might be useful to send a message to call your best fighter back home from his assassination plot when you discover the local necromancer is planning to take you out.

Will you expand the messenger system worldwide this time, or will it all be abstracted slow-moving email between villains and their minions for the foreseeable future?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 10:07:34 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2189 on: July 01, 2019, 05:10:22 pm »

Quote from: Schmaven
Do you have any plans to change how stockpiles work between now and the Myth & Magic release?  Such as giving clothing stockpiles the ability to only accept worn out clothing?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977598#msg7977598
Schmaven (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977633#msg7977633
Shonai_dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977640#msg7977640
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7979715#msg7979715
Schmaven (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7979934#msg7979934
LordBaal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7979975#msg7979975
Manveru Taurënér: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7980005#msg7980005

People pretty much covered it.  We don't have specific plans yet, but it's possible we'll see various smaller changes before the Steam/itch release.  Larger rewrites to the mechanical systems would be ill-advised as they might introduce more problems than they solve during a stretch where we want the game to become more cleaned up.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
With the new strategic combat system for adventurer parties, will the party bard (assuming an rpg player chooses a performance focused skillset in lieu of combat skill) have anything to do in combat besides watch and remember the tale for later? Or is it solely fighters up front, covering fire from the ranger and thief hides in the shadows for this release?

I know "magic tunes" is something for Mythgen to handle, but srirring battle music exists already, for example.

IncompetentFortressMaker: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7977946#msg7977946
Schmaven: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978046#msg7978046
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978064#msg7978064
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978211#msg7978211
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978272#msg7978272
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7978330#msg7978330

For non-magical situations, I lean toward realistic musical effects.  There are some real-world applications, in larger-number situations mostly, but there could be room for certain distractions or other needling matter.  Not doing anything with it for this release.

Quote from: squamous
You mentioned something interesting about how demons can take over dwarven civilizations that dig too deep. I am wondering, what happens if you generate a world without any procedurally generated demons, but create custom creatures which will inhabit that layer instead? Say, I made my own demonic race that inhabited layer 5 of the underground, would they spawn in the place of demons (and alongside goblins assuming they are present) or are procedurally generated demons an absolute requirement for hellish takeovers of civilizations?

Also, I noticed necromancers might be able to alter the biome around them to an evil one. If that works, will it be modifiable via raws or hardcoded? Could you make megabeasts do it too, for example? Or have custom creatures spawned for different necromancer/creature types?

It currently requires a creature with the EVIL tag in a civ, since I didn't write it as a pure beast attack.  In the current version, FEATURE_BEAST, TITAN, DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON are restricted tags, and in order for there to be demons, the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tags are used.  However, I don't recall why those are restricted tags.  It might break something horribly if I allow them and modders use them, but I've gone ahead and allowed it anyway.  It'll be an at-your-own-risk thing until we sort out any bugs from it, but it's not as key as tags like GENERATED, which the game uses for internal bookkeeping.

I didn't try to make a raw format for the evil regions.  The myth stuff will just make it all irrelevant, and the release has gone long already.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Toady, If a member of your fortress is ressurected as a intelligent undead by a fortress dwarf practitioner of necromancy in a relatively intact state (lets say drowning or freezing in ice) will they retain their civ links to just re-join your fortress population or become a abstract neutral unit/visitor like mindless zombies are?

I mean it wouldn't be outside of the possibility that a necromancer fortress could be self sustaining through raising intelligent undead-dwarves (and some other intelligent creatures if they will actively join/forced to join the fortress) to live life like they would have been alive, similar to the all vampire fortresses people have built in order to make use of immortality buffs it brings with no mortals to die in the crossfire when everyone is turned.

One other sort of related question: Can group leadership and mayoral etc votes in fortress be attributed to forced magical or conspiratorial links (intelligent undead unanimous'ly and loyally supporting the nomination of their master) to gain a majority?

I would think so, but some greater clarity on the point before Citizen Dwarf Kane uses a degree of fortress intimidation rolls and networking on a low level plot to become mayor of blockgravel would be handy, pretty much like how real life politics works and not dissimilar to the most popular dwarf winning already. (I realise i might have answer my own question but i would look forward to a response regardless)

I'm not sure that'll happen at all yet.  In world generation, they only raise intelligent undead if that have something to do with them (ie, their own conquest goals and entity.)

I'm not sure how fortress mode coup plots will happen either.  There aren't elections in world gen, so they haven't had to run that way yet.  Compromising a majority of voters would be way more work for them, the way things work now.  There also isn't any formal definition for magical modes of control, so nothing would happen with the voting even if an intelligent undead somehow ended up as a fort migrant etc.

Quote from: Criperum
I could be too early to ask but if a player-necromancer gathers a lot of zombies will AI civilizations attack him (ally to attack him)?
If so, will they try to deliberately kill necromancer to lower the threat or just fight wall on wall or it's too much for current AI to demand?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7980808#msg7980808
Criperum (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7980900#msg7980900

You can't currently declare your entity as a necromancer one, so they can't see you that way.  It'll need better detectors later than just using the world gen flag for it, but we're not there yet.

Quote from: KingEdwarf3890
Yo Toady, I think I found a bug based on 1. your statements about intelligent undead, and 2. current werebeast game mechanics. If you have a werebeast and you slice it into pieces and resurrect them just before the full moon, you can actually get multiple whole bodies belonging to the same histfig, or at least you could last I knew. What if you took those bodies and applied the "intelligent undead" spell to more than one of them, wouldn't that crash the game?

Forget my last message, I didn't know soulless undead used a different histfig. Still maybe make sure it doesn't crash tho. Also, last I knew there was some hard-coded thing where you couldn't resume playing as an adventurer if they got turned into a night troll or zombie while retired. I want there to be, at the very least, a way to work around that and play as a night troll before the Big Wait. It won't kill me if you don't have time, but please?

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7982642#msg7982642
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7983000#msg7983000

Yeah, animation removes the body's attachment from the historical figure.

There aren't night troll conversions in-play, so that won't come up.

Quote from: Buttery_Mess
Will adventurer mode party members be able to spar with one another non-lethally? Or will they at least be able to fight without wanting to murder one another?

It's the same as companions right now, when you're controlling one of them.  There are things that need to be handled there, since it'd be odd to swap control if they are really going at it.  I just have a note to 'deal with it', which'll involve...  something or other, ha ha ha.  We'll see how the flow goes on that one!  Even if there is a sparring option, I imagine people will still want to murder their own party members on occasion, for, um, roleplaying reasons and so forth.

Quote from: Eric Blank
Related to the story you posted recently about Ustuth; since obviously assassination plots are now being carried out post-worldgen, do players have to worry about assassin's getting into the fort and killing our nobles? We don't get any special protection from those cases, right?

Assuming that's the case, do they show up hostile, trying to sneak in in ambush from the get-go? Or will we have to screen out other visitors?

Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7983158#msg7983158

The main reason I put assassination plots in the game was so that your fort would be targeted, he he he.  Death Dragon handled the second set of questions.

Quote from: Nopenope
Regarding your concerns about healthcare, have you ever thought about relocating to a country without these kinds of issues (e.g. most of Europe)?

Sure.  But it's not entirely simple.  I still have ties in the US.

Quote from: iceball3
Is there a specific ethic concerning [necromancer expulsion]? Will goblins and elves be invariably kicked out of human communities as a rule as a result of their extended lifespans being offensive to mere mortals?

That also brings to question, will goblin and elven necromancers become integrated assets to said goblin and elven communities, or is that kind of cross-interaction for much later releases?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7983464#msg7983464

Goblins and elves don't get kicked out because they are already assumed to be immortal - it has a check against that.  So there hasn't been a need for specific rules regarding them.  If a goblin or elf becomes a necromancer somehow, then nobody will in fact notice, unless they actually go off and form a undead conquest entity, which they won't feel so strongly about, since they aren't being expelled and continue to live happily.  They also don't use their powers when in this situation.  Necromancer vampire elves, or whatever, will still be persecuted, over the bloodsucking, and I believe that'll cause them to form an undead conquest entity once they are expelled.  There's still a lot to do, but we're generally holding off on the 'what people think of wizards' stuff until the magic release.

Quote from: Ggobs
Will crime syndicate system and the bandit system be merged? Or will they be kept separate? TIA

It remains an odd mess.  The mead hall rulers, criminals, bandits and villains should all be some type of the same thing, and through plots and entities, this is partially true, but they still think about the world differently.  I was hoping to bring criminal organizations more into the mix this time, but I didn't end up doing much with it.

Quote from: falcc
1) Did villains end up with plots to steal pets?
2) Can you give animals to people in order to earn their favor?
3) If people see an animal they like is hanging out with you in adventure mode, will their improved mood make them any more amenable to talking with you or traveling with you?
4) Before the big wait, will people talk more about their favorite animals, colors, foods, and art styles?

Right now you can parse out if somebody likes a tone of music based on their responses, which is WILD, but it's hard to get much of a personality picture in adventure mode even with extended interactions since they don't need to eat or anything.

5) Can you ride a horse that isn't yours? If you jump on a horse that isn't yours, what does the horse think? What do people of the village it belongs to think about it? What about if you didn't tell it to leave but just sat there, just having landed on someone's horse? Is that like being seen in sneak mode?
6) If you start with a bunch of cows with your adventuring group, are they all pets, or can you just have a herd's worth of food to live off of through the barren winter months?
7) Where does it draw the pool of embarkable adventure mode animals from? Could that pool be expanded through the concentrated efforts of the player, either in adventure mode or through domesticating in fortresses?
8 ) Can adventurers enact the cattle raid style missions they can currently do if they retire in a fort?
9) What if, hypothetically, an adventurer leapt onto a dragon? What if it'd been tamed by a fortress, or was a dragon of a group not at war with the player's civilization? What if it *hadn't* been tamed by a fortress? What does the dragon think about all this and could it ever end well for the player with an extremely good animal handling roll and some foreplanning?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7987505#msg7987505

1) Ha ha, nope.  The villainous pet stuff has been in the notes for like a decade and I never get there.
2) You might be able to trade your small pets, but I don't have anything like favor, generally, aside from vaguely related reps that don't come up, and the new relationship data, which hasn't been moved to play yet (though that at least will happen before the release.)
3) It doesn't do anything like that.  The joining calculation is pretty simple, based on rep and party size, etc.
4) I don't expect so.  As you say, they don't interact with these things yet, and we won't have e.g. adv mode eating until the schedules and economy return.
5) I believe they have to be tame currently, but they don't have to belong to you.  As with many things, nobody cares.
6) They are all pets currently.  At some point we'll need to distinguish them as starting livestock, when that matters more and you can properly pasture/herd/drive them.
7) They come from the civ.  Hmm, as I recall, the domesticated fort animals don't get added to the pet pool?  It looks like your fort mode civ can be updated up to 'expert trainer' knowledge, but not full domestication?  Probably because of various issues.  Once we can cross that final threshold, it would transfer to adv mode.
8) Hmm, you can lead them away, but I'm not sure what happens after that.  They don't join the part in the same way as pets, though we'll want to cross that boundary as well at some point.
9) I think it would need to be a tame one.  Then it's like, cool, I guess, ha ha.

Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
1. I recall there was an elf from a dev log who was notable for multiple simultaneous lovers and affairs. What sort of personality traits/orientation results would bring about such an outcome. Did you look into why that was?

2. A question for later down the line, but, do you have any preliminary ideas on how you want to implement boats? Aside from simply implementing them, of course. I ask because the possibility of having some control over what they look like would be a big bonus for me.

3. In regards to the court/household positions, do they appear anywhere outside of world gen/legends mode? And are they moddable in any way currently?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7988116#msg7988116

1. Elves live a long time, so this tends to happen more often here, but it can happen for anybody.  I didn't end up investigating that particular case.  I didn't tie a personality trait or value to it, as I recollect, and I'm not quite sure which one fits there, though maybe there's something appropriately (it could just use lustful or something, though that isn't quite right either, since the game just doesn't understand social mores of this type yet.)

2. Shonai_Dweller provided the link here.

3. They just hang out throughout the world right now.  They are generated, similar to some existing generated positions, so they don't have a modding link, and I'm not sure what'll end up happening there, but it'll be a while before we try to provide more variable and interesting structure to entities (that's the part after the magic release.)

Quote from: Beag
Since villains will now be able to send messages in some cases will their messengers also have to be in on the plot or would the messages be delivered in written form like letters to keep the messenger oblivious?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7988526#msg7988526

Yeah, by abstract, I meant messenger-free.  I was worried about the historical figure count if we gave a name to every messenger, though we'll be able to figure out a compromise at some point.  Mostly, though, villains either go themselves or have somebody physical and historical that they use, which is messenger-like in some important practical senses.

Quote from: Aid
Hi Tarn, you will change the mode of legends for release in Steam, if so it will be adding a mouse scroll or something more complicate?

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7989160#msg7989160

Similar to the stockpile question, it's possible there will be broader changes.  It's more important to get the main experience playing more smoothly, but at some point, if things go well, legends starts to count there as well.  Still, if we just end up doing some mouse-type additions there, that could be it.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
(In the upcoming release) - Will villaneous adventurers be able to send messages to their minions too? Or are we limited to direct interactions with our party members? I can see how it might be useful to send a message to call your best fighter back home from his assassination plot when you discover the local necromancer is planning to take you out.

Will you expand the messenger system worldwide this time, or will it all be abstracted slow-moving email between villains and their minions for the foreseeable future?

Messages are a property of high-level entity position holders, and we've just ignored that entirely with adventurers so far.  I'm not sure that in particular will be moved over, since it's supposed to be an actual person (or bird or whatever) doing it, and as an adventurer, you can just ask an additional companion to fill that role.  If a handler asks another companion to return, I mean, we'll probably get to things along those lines.  Just not with the abstract system.

For this time, I put in the new system since I'm not doing something else.  For later, it would be nice to explore the mechanism, without blowing out the number of historical figures or moving parts.
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