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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 478457 times)

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2430 on: September 19, 2019, 10:15:59 am »

Is there any plans to implement dwarven nurseries, to potentially provide "proper" childcare for dwarves, and potentially lower the number of warbabies? Related quote and suggestion from Scriver and others below.

It would be nice to have nurseries just not for war babies but children in general. Combine with burrows to make "safety zones" for them to retreat to during battles or sieges a la Helm's Deep.

But yes as iconic as the Battle-Bred Babies of DF is I really think the game could use a nursery function. Both for dwarves to temporarily leave their babies at (in case of violence) and for nobles to be assholes about child rearing with (lol take care of my own offspring? You must be joking).

Then again I would also give children an inclination to want to hang around their parents and make them able to learn their parents' professional skills by proxy from being present while the parent work. Maybe have them limited to some low skill level but then make their parents work a little faster by having them around (simulating them helping in the workshop).

I think there's a public mandate for it given how often it turns up in suggestions, but not a declared devlog one given the direction towards the big goals in the Magic Arc and how much of a detour it could end up being. I personally would support the 'idea' of a player set safe area but i think given there's been no hint of a devlog for a while on the matter it would be best consigned to the suggestions forum for elaborations.

Committing to doing nursuries/etc. might compel players to ask for more depth regarding children in their interim period of obscure uselessness before adulthood, like academic public/private tutoring to broaden minds etc or to touch on the subjects of childhood and adolescence more, but this is a pitfall i feel that Toady could get well sunk into given the normal amout of detail with everything connected that DF strives to achieve.
  • Also the horrible daycare experiment implications of player's Spartan like approaches to childcare, in the hopes animals or child snatchers would take away nursery babies stationed outside, babies aren't even born with knives to defend themselves anymore  :P
Rushing to add everything now might leave post-magic arc when everything is in place to be built upon rather than pulled out quickly and started again
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2431 on: September 19, 2019, 03:53:22 pm »

How far away is the villain system from producing a stereotypical fantasy thieves guild? In my mind it can be boiled down to a criminal organisation that might not actively invent or undertake plots but who's permission (and a tax) is required before professional criminal activity is undertaken in their sphere of influence. It may or may not have some sort of tacit agreement with a legitimate government. Is a thieves guild something you'd like to see come up in certain gens?
Rather far, I would guess. You'd really need an economy for a thieves guild to have a place (although it obviously doesn't stop companies, embezzling, and other economic activities to happen in an economic vacuum with the Villains arc). It also would benefit from a foundation of Law & Customs that might give them a place in the society and some explanation for why they exists.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2432 on: September 20, 2019, 12:11:40 am »

Is there any plans to implement dwarven nurseries, to potentially provide "proper" childcare for dwarves, and potentially lower the number of warbabies? Related quote and suggestion from Scriver and others below.

It would be nice to have nurseries just not for war babies but children in general. Combine with burrows to make "safety zones" for them to retreat to during battles or sieges a la Helm's Deep.

But yes as iconic as the Battle-Bred Babies of DF is I really think the game could use a nursery function. Both for dwarves to temporarily leave their babies at (in case of violence) and for nobles to be assholes about child rearing with (lol take care of my own offspring? You must be joking).

Then again I would also give children an inclination to want to hang around their parents and make them able to learn their parents' professional skills by proxy from being present while the parent work. Maybe have them limited to some low skill level but then make their parents work a little faster by having them around (simulating them helping in the workshop).

I think there's a public mandate for it given how often it turns up in suggestions, but not a declared devlog one given the direction towards the big goals in the Magic Arc and how much of a detour it could end up being. I personally would support the 'idea' of a player set safe area but i think given there's been no hint of a devlog for a while on the matter it would be best consigned to the suggestions forum for elaborations.

Committing to doing nursuries/etc. might compel players to ask for more depth regarding children in their interim period of obscure uselessness before adulthood, like academic public/private tutoring to broaden minds etc or to touch on the subjects of childhood and adolescence more, but this is a pitfall i feel that Toady could get well sunk into given the normal amout of detail with everything connected that DF strives to achieve.
  • Also the horrible daycare experiment implications of player's Spartan like approaches to childcare, in the hopes animals or child snatchers would take away nursery babies stationed outside, babies aren't even born with knives to defend themselves anymore  :P
Rushing to add everything now might leave post-magic arc when everything is in place to be built upon rather than pulled out quickly and started again

Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely).  Doesn't stop the player making their own design...
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2433 on: September 20, 2019, 12:36:06 am »

Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely).  Doesn't stop the player making their own design..

The practices of tutoring the nobility by assigning a guardian to be mentored by as well as the obvious pressure to continue the family trade with passed on traditions and methods are common for the time period even before any kind of formal organizational education (and indeed even into times of antiquity with a lot more philosophic studentship/societies for young adults) though it might be a bit obtuse to include a entire breadth for a university (though they definitely did exist for a select few as soon as 1088 in Bologna, Italy a full 356 years old by 1444 as the earliest European university.)

Just as you say rightly, for the period sitting down both male and female students in a formal classroom irregardless of social status for common public education is far fetched, but in the same breadth you can say that dwarves are ahistorical visionaries with their ideas that just live by circumstance and setting in the present period they reside.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2434 on: September 20, 2019, 12:46:25 am »

New reply for a entirely seperate question, i apologise about the double post.

How far away is the villain system from producing a stereotypical fantasy thieves guild? In my mind it can be boiled down to a criminal organisation that might not actively invent or undertake plots but who's permission (and a tax) is required before professional criminal activity is undertaken in their sphere of influence. It may or may not have some sort of tacit agreement with a legitimate government. Is a thieves guild something you'd like to see come up in certain gens?
Rather far, I would guess. You'd really need an economy for a thieves guild to have a place (although it obviously doesn't stop companies, embezzling, and other economic activities to happen in an economic vacuum with the Villains arc). It also would benefit from a foundation of Law & Customs that might give them a place in the society and some explanation for why they exists.

Steam Announcement on the DF steam page offers some more context.

Quote
We've been cleaning up the villainous network issues I mentioned in my last news post. In order to connect the networks more fully, we mostly focused on criminal organizations operating in cities. They can now compete with each other, subordinate each other and skim off of each other's profits, and fully fuse into single larger gangs. They can also establish new branches in other cities to give the networks some additional geographic spread, which should help to make investigations more interesting.

With those new additions as a backdrop, we allowed position-holding villains (who might be, for instance, nobles, priests, or bookkeepers) to contact the criminal organizations through intermediaries. Once in contact, they can contract out their assassination, sabotage, theft and kidnapping plots. This creates additional links for our investigations, and also opens up opportunities for the criminal leaders to exploit the link the other way, through blackmail and so forth.

It would really mean beyond this what you convey 'gangs' to mean by professionalism, since they still would do the type of things your described 'theives guild' would do while not needing to flaunt around additional systems like mercenaries (that we're aware of). Paying for their own long conspicious cloaks and poisoned daggers with little embezzled accounts amongst those kinds of things.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2435 on: September 20, 2019, 10:33:02 pm »

Personally I think nurseries, like schools, are from a much more modern period than this game represents (however vaguely).  Doesn't stop the player making their own design..

The practices of tutoring the nobility by assigning a guardian to be mentored by as well as the obvious pressure to continue the family trade with passed on traditions and methods are common for the time period even before any kind of formal organizational education (and indeed even into times of antiquity with a lot more philosophic studentship/societies for young adults) though it might be a bit obtuse to include a entire breadth for a university (though they definitely did exist for a select few as soon as 1088 in Bologna, Italy a full 356 years old by 1444 as the earliest European university.)

Just as you say rightly, for the period sitting down both male and female students in a formal classroom irregardless of social status for common public education is far fetched, but in the same breadth you can say that dwarves are ahistorical visionaries with their ideas that just live by circumstance and setting in the present period they reside.

Oh, I'm not against an overhaul of child activities to allow greater participation in 'useful' activities, but only the isolated walling up vis-a-vis command and control. (As an aside I regard Paris as the earliest european university - but we already have a rough equivalent for this with scholars + Libraries.)   8)

[We're well off into suggestion territory here, and for distant development at that, ... but anyways: my vision would be of a 'child activities' menu as an equivalent to the labours for adults except it would only have a few broad categories such as - help with harvest, help with hauling, provide food/water, help parents, help fortress.  Unlike labours the associated activities would only trigger occasionally, maybe 10% of the time on average and would be influenced by traits and personalities.  No doubt this is a double attempt on my part to capture both something of the chaos and freedom attributed to the modern child and a modeling of the greater degree of participation in public life (albeit in a minor role) that took place during previous eras.]
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2436 on: September 26, 2019, 04:08:46 am »

You've filled up the world with plotting villains, zombie apocalypses and monasteries while updating the interface with org charts to help people to find their way around while giving them pets, companions and strategic combat to keep them distracted. Do you think Adventure Mode is now close to Fortress Mode's level of "being somewhat like an actual game" now? Relatively speaking of course, I know there's tons more to add which will enhance both modes.

(I know Adventurer has it's "better than fortress mode" fans, and I'm one of them sometimes, this is just about Toady's opinion, based on his past comments on the state of Adventurer compared with Fortress).
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bieux

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2437 on: September 28, 2019, 01:37:59 pm »

I have some questions about the incoming updates to fortress mode. Earlier this year it was mentioned that the player could notice plotting if they saw that two or more dwarves spent too much of their time talking to each other. Assuming this is how plotting is going to be implemented:
1. Will seeking social interaction only extend to plotting dwarves or are other dwarves going to gain this ability in this update?
2. Is plotting/interacting socially going to take only dwarven idle-time or is work-time going to be affected by this?
3. Will visitors be included in plotting? (i.e. a migrant arived on the fort, and after a year or so a vilanous traveler that happened to know them came to ask for a favor and leave, or vice versa; Or even someone up the chain maintaning contact with an agent in your fort for interciv plots)
4. Would dwarves that overheard plotting be able to catch part of the plan and feed that information to the justice screen, or will they simply accuse dorfs of plotting?
5. How adversarial can dorfs get now? If that migrant was the spy all along, when they become incriminated, will they see no reason to keep their act and start fighting everyone?


Edit: grammar
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 03:34:54 pm by bieux »
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Silverwing235

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2438 on: September 28, 2019, 02:10:25 pm »


5. How adversarial can dorfs get now? If that migrant was the spy all along, when they become incriminated, will they see no reason to keep their act and start fighting everyone?


Just a minor correction w/boldface.
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Beag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2439 on: September 28, 2019, 02:50:10 pm »

1. Can necromancers/demons utilize mega beasts in their experimentation? For example making a new creature using parts of a dragon and a human?
2. Will new races created by necromancers have some abilities of the creatures they were created from? Some examples would be a carnivorous diet or the ability to fly.
3. What do necromancers/demons do with new races they create assuming they don't escape? I'd assume they wouldn't just kill a creation they spent so long working on.
4. If a player playing as a race created by a necromancer/demon visit's that necromancer/demon's base would they still be hostile to that player even though the player is of a race they created?
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2440 on: September 28, 2019, 04:15:24 pm »

1. Can necromancers/demons utilize mega beasts in their experimentation? For example making a new creature using parts of a dragon and a human?
2. Will new races created by necromancers have some abilities of the creatures they were created from? Some examples would be a carnivorous diet or the ability to fly.
3. What do necromancers/demons do with new races they create assuming they don't escape? I'd assume they wouldn't just kill a creation they spent so long working on.
4. If a player playing as a race created by a necromancer/demon visit's that necromancer/demon's base would they still be hostile to that player even though the player is of a race they created?


1. Toady's implied that necros/demons are limited to experimenting on the populace of settlements they've captured (as well as their pets/livestock). So unless a powerful necromancer finds a town that has stray megabeasts just roaming around, I kind of doubt it.
4. I assume they'd still be hostile, since it's currently entity membership that's the defining factor in your interactions with NPCs rather than race.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 04:21:22 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2441 on: September 29, 2019, 01:03:17 am »

1. Can necromancers/demons utilize mega beasts in their experimentation? For example making a new creature using parts of a dragon and a human?
2. Will new races created by necromancers have some abilities of the creatures they were created from? Some examples would be a carnivorous diet or the ability to fly.
3. What do necromancers/demons do with new races they create assuming they don't escape? I'd assume they wouldn't just kill a creation they spent so long working on.
4. If a player playing as a race created by a necromancer/demon visit's that necromancer/demon's base would they still be hostile to that player even though the player is of a race they created?


2. They likely won't have tag mixing that complex because of possible conflicts, for the same reason it's not 100% going to be quite literal mixing of bodies due to limitations without a re-write on how bodies work. They follow archetypes body formats instead.

3. Add them to the population to staff their armies and work presumably, failed experiments are thrown out into the wild, Toady's own comments are for a Uruk-Hai like creation, no special additional purpose though necromancers have the additional facet of having their experiments reanimate.

Quite a few answers are already found on the development log and Toady starts discussing it on the first of August.
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some_stranger

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2442 on: September 29, 2019, 07:18:41 am »

1. Will there be any form of beta access keys for the steam release?
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iceball3

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2443 on: September 29, 2019, 07:33:22 am »

Do you think the collectiom of criminal networks and further developments down the line in Law And Order might end up with enough foundation to support a new game mode, a la Liberal Crime Squad? Or will the scope of player control largely be confined to the two current perspectives: that currently being single adventurer liasing with individual contacts and communal independent settlement (adventure and dwarf mode respectively)?

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2444 on: September 29, 2019, 08:59:07 am »

1. Will there be any form of beta access keys for the steam release?
As far as I understand it beta testing for the Premium release is intended to be performed as a closed testing organized by Kitfox. However, it's unclear (at least to me) whether that procedure will be followed for every update (which would alter the way things have been done up until now significantly), or whether there will be a beta branch for early adopters of new versions before they stabilize and can be brought over to the general branch. Another unclear issue is how to handle existing fortresses with new releases, as auto updates might not be the best choice for everyone.
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