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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1604709 times)

feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3210 on: April 27, 2020, 02:18:11 pm »



1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?

The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?

Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.

There's been talk of 'parallel development' but we're yet to see what that amounts to.  Perhaps a bit early to tell but as yet no mention of a single bug fix or any iteration of the unfinished bits of the villians arch. 

Let's wait and see...  :(
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3211 on: April 27, 2020, 04:11:32 pm »



1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?

The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?

Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.

There's been talk of 'parallel development' but we're yet to see what that amounts to.  Perhaps a bit early to tell but as yet no mention of a single bug fix or any iteration of the unfinished bits of the villians arch. 

Let's wait and see...  :(
Villains isn't restarting until after Steam. "Parallel development" just refers to getting out bug fixes every so often during long development phases (like this one). But Toady already said that the first of those releases isn't coming until the graphics part of this development is done.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 04:13:20 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Beag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3212 on: April 27, 2020, 07:22:58 pm »

1. Since you will be adding a tutorial to fortress mode to help new players in the steam release will adventure mode also be getting a tutorial?
2. Currently the divination dice generate as practices of certain religions, eventually will our player adventurers be able to see the practices of their religion that they know about in the Q(info) screen?
3. Since in the steam release objects are now going to represented graphically how will statues and figurines be handled? Statues and figurines of certain things seem simple enough but what about ones depicting complicated scenes like historical events?
4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3213 on: April 27, 2020, 08:52:57 pm »

4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?
4. Which animation do you mean? Windmills are animated in vanilla currently.
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3214 on: April 27, 2020, 11:41:34 pm »

4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?
4. Which animation do you mean? Windmills are animated in vanilla currently.
Dancing is currently represented as a status icon (). An example of an animation that's been added for premium release is gems sparkling.

A dancing animation would have to be the sprite just jittering around a bit. Any moving of arms and legs wouldn't be feasible given the large number of creature sprites.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 11:48:37 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3215 on: April 28, 2020, 12:23:33 am »

4. Since some animation seems to be in the steam release will there any animation for the generated in game dances or will it still just be creatures moving about in a pattern?
4. Which animation do you mean? Windmills are animated in vanilla currently.
Dancing is currently represented as a status icon (). An example of an animation that's been added for premium release is gems sparkling.

A dancing animation would have to be the sprite just jittering around a bit. Any moving of arms and legs wouldn't be feasible given the large number of creature sprites.
Which official screenshot had sparkling gems?

All I've seen are Meph's draft ideas (and pages of people complaining about it). Pretty sure nothing has been said officially about adding extra animation yet.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3216 on: April 28, 2020, 04:33:44 am »



1. How will DF's procedural generation be affected by the inclusion of graphics? If procgen creatures are going to have customized sprites, which means more work on the part of the artists as opposed to just ASCII where these things are handled by verbal descriptors, would that mean that future procedural generation stuff will have to be limited or removed to accommodate a graphical overlay?

The plan is to have even deeper procgen. Maybe we will have sprites for procgen creatures that are "assembled" from sprites for body parts?

Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.

There's been talk of 'parallel development' but we're yet to see what that amounts to.  Perhaps a bit early to tell but as yet no mention of a single bug fix or any iteration of the unfinished bits of the villians arch. 

Let's wait and see...  :(
Villains isn't restarting until after Steam. "Parallel development" just refers to getting out bug fixes every so often during long development phases (like this one). But Toady already said that the first of those releases isn't coming until the graphics part of this development is done.
My understanding (or is it wishful thinking?) was that "Parallel development" would be slightly more than bug fixes, and include minor tweaks and implementations. After the Premium release has switched over into the Big Wait, that would serve as "See, we're still here" indications. Once the initial graphics phase is done, I hope it will be a bit more that it will be later, as adjustments to the Stress system in particular would benefit from field testing to get several adjustment passes in, and there may be other adjustments that don't interact heavily with the UI overhaul (or that may be tackled before the overhaul starts) that could be candidates for release and general testing.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3217 on: April 28, 2020, 05:53:46 am »

Maybe. But it was only promised as a way of avoiding fatal crash bugs lingering for several years. Nothing else. Toady's still only one person, he can't literally work in parallel.

Although in this phase's case it includes fixes to the stress system, which may include potentially new minor features.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 05:56:18 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3218 on: April 29, 2020, 02:46:16 am »

Maybe. But it was only promised as a way of avoiding fatal crash bugs lingering for several years. Nothing else.

What, like the raid equipment crash/savegame corruption bug?  2 years, another arc abandoned halfway through, and still going strong.  But no time to deal with that now.  And that was during a period of 'normal' development, i.e., not held up by graphics getting in the way of other game development.

I think it is fair enough to be concerned since the steam work crosses one of the core features of df development, the focus on gameplay in lieu of funky visual stuff. For some of us that was part of the attraction of df and what drew us here in the first place.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3219 on: April 29, 2020, 03:19:26 am »

Maybe. But it was only promised as a way of avoiding fatal crash bugs lingering for several years. Nothing else.

What, like the raid equipment crash/savegame corruption bug?  2 years, another arc abandoned halfway through, and still going strong.  But no time to deal with that now.  And that was during a period of 'normal' development, i.e., not held up by graphics getting in the way of other game development.

I think it is fair enough to be concerned since the steam work crosses one of the core features of df development, the focus on gameplay in lieu of funky visual stuff. For some of us that was part of the attraction of df and what drew us here in the first place.
Yes. Bug fixes. Dunno what else you want to know. I'm just telling what it is this development arc is promised to contain. You believe whatever you like.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3220 on: April 29, 2020, 03:51:29 am »

Sometimes I think you deliberately try to be annoying. 

What I am interested in is hearing Toady's thoughts on this question (my bolding in the below).

Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.

Particularly since as the game iterates and adds new stuff, or redoes it (a la mythgen or map rewrite) this will be an ongoing effort and not just a one and done.
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3221 on: April 29, 2020, 01:05:54 pm »

What I am interested in is hearing Toady's thoughts on this question (my bolding in the below).

Well yes but one of the reasons that ASCII was used for DF in the first place was to avoid needing to make a model/sprite for every creature because of how much it slowed down development of DF's predecessor. So I'm wondering if there is a plan to avoid that on this attempt.

Particularly since as the game iterates and adds new stuff, or redoes it (a la mythgen or map rewrite) this will be an ongoing effort and not just a one and done.

The plan is that he has artists to do the sprites for him.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3222 on: April 30, 2020, 07:45:33 am »

I'd been joking before that in the worst case scenario meph and mayday are a little slow and toady has more time to spent on fixing bugs and polishing... Oh the horror. ;)
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Dorfthefort123

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3223 on: April 30, 2020, 09:17:19 am »

Will Events that depict battles in carvings be biased at all? Like a leader that died pathetically to a Beak dog. Will be told to have died to a Beak dog protecting his friends from the evil demon lord?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3224 on: April 30, 2020, 04:01:25 pm »

Will Events that depict battles in carvings be biased at all? Like a leader that died pathetically to a Beak dog. Will be told to have died to a Beak dog protecting his friends from the evil demon lord?
Lime green text if that's a question for Toady.
And it's more of post for the suggestions board really.

--Oh, your text is kind of green. Maybe a bit greener would be better. Didn't notice at first.
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