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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 857375 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3255 on: June 01, 2020, 07:50:36 pm »

Thanks as always for the replies!

Strange how few questions you've gotten the last two months.
There's a whole separate official thread dedicated to the current graphics development so not much to ask here really.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3256 on: June 02, 2020, 04:43:52 am »

Thanks for the reply Toady.
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FAA

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3257 on: June 02, 2020, 07:33:46 am »

Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.

Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.

I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.

EDIT: I'm not a programmer, but I can make several realistic-looking locations for Cataclysm in a single day. I think that something like that, perhaps using JSON like Cataclysm, might make things easier and faster for Toady.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 01:29:40 pm by FAA »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3258 on: June 02, 2020, 09:22:47 am »

Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.

Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.

I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.

(Lime green, the recommended color, is easier on the eyes than the green you used, but it will still work as a Toady attractor).

Not in the near future. The Myth & Magic arc (after the Big Wait, some 5 years or so from now) will be forced to rework human settlements to allow for the human race to be playable in fully mundane worlds. The map rewrite taking place during the Big Wait will probably introduce changes that invalidates some of the current logic for settlements anyway (at least it will allow for new things that don't exist and thus aren't generated generated currently), so they will probably have to be reworked for that reason alone, at least to some extent.
However, extensive work on one piece of the game (in this case site generation) by necessity has to come at the expense of work on any of the other urgent changes to the game when the game is a single programmer project. That said, Toady is known to spiral away on tangents and spend a fair bit of effort on seemingly minor details, but he probably won't know if that will be the case until it happens.
It can be noted that the necro towers and kobold caves were reworked as part of 0.47.01 because they had to be to handle the contents in that release, but also that Toady was shorter of time than usual due to the Premium release obligations, and those obligations are not getting less pressing when there's less time left.
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UselessMcMiner

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3259 on: June 02, 2020, 10:10:02 am »

In adventure mode, will it ever be possible for Lovers to become pregnant instead of having to get married? Also when will it be possible for your dwarves to have things like extramarital affairs?
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The Sentries are still fighting the capuchin. For two monthes they have done nothing but punch this monkey.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3260 on: June 02, 2020, 11:11:49 am »

In adventure mode, will it ever be possible for Lovers to become pregnant instead of having to get married? Also when will it be possible for your dwarves to have things like extramarital affairs?
Part of the Villains update was to allow for cheating on the spouse, as well as having multiple lovers (and remarry, after an divorce, which was introduced as well, or the death of the spouse). In adventure mode adventurers can't get pregnant (or impregnate) because they're currently of a particular adventurer asexual kind. This will presumably be addressed at some time in the post Myth & Magic future, and there's no reason to assume the current looser restrictions won't apply to adventurers at that time (although there will also be a Law & Customs arc that may well include various legal restrictions and repercussions on marriage and extra maritial sex, varying with different cultures, probably ranging from "personal matter" to mandatory "death to any who deviate from the specified path" [possibly with the standard range of exceptions for the upper echelons when it comes to enforcement]).
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UselessMcMiner

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3261 on: June 02, 2020, 01:08:06 pm »

SORRY I MEANT FORTRESS MODE will it ever be possible for Lovers to become pregnant instead of having to get married? So can your dwarves get divorced or cheat on each other in fort mode? I know dwarves can take multiple lovers but that might be a bug or something/color]
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Quote
The scouts have been fighting a giant capuchin for the past month now. They still haven't killed it.

Obsidian 1053

The Sentries are still fighting the capuchin. For two monthes they have done nothing but punch this monkey.

Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3262 on: June 02, 2020, 01:15:01 pm »

I think all of that is currently possible to some degree. As of the villains release they don't have to be married to have children any more.
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Doorkeeper

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3263 on: June 03, 2020, 01:16:14 am »

Thanks for the answer Toady. And thanks Toady and ThreeToe.

Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.

Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.

I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.

(Lime green, the recommended color, is easier on the eyes than the green you used, but it will still work as a Toady attractor).

Not in the near future. The Myth & Magic arc (after the Big Wait, some 5 years or so from now) will be forced to rework human settlements to allow for the human race to be playable in fully mundane worlds. The map rewrite taking place during the Big Wait will probably introduce changes that invalidates some of the current logic for settlements anyway (at least it will allow for new things that don't exist and thus aren't generated generated currently), so they will probably have to be reworked for that reason alone, at least to some extent.
However, extensive work on one piece of the game (in this case site generation) by necessity has to come at the expense of work on any of the other urgent changes to the game when the game is a single programmer project. That said, Toady is known to spiral away on tangents and spend a fair bit of effort on seemingly minor details, but he probably won't know if that will be the case until it happens.
It can be noted that the necro towers and kobold caves were reworked as part of 0.47.01 because they had to be to handle the contents in that release, but also that Toady was shorter of time than usual due to the Premium release obligations, and those obligations are not getting less pressing when there's less time left.

Most site/structure changes seem to happen when they're required to by other features focal to the dev arc, like kobold caves (for artifacts) and barrows in neco sites that are meant to house the experiment critters. Obviously this isn't always the case; the new necro tower generation didn't require to change as far as I know, aside from making them look more distinct and sinister I guess. Then again, it probably wouldn't have been changed if necromancers weren't one of the major focuses of the villains update.

As for the town & building gen on the level of detail that FAA described (w/ CDDA as a model): the first entry on the old roadmap/long-term goals (bustling town arc) more or less addresses this. But based on this info, I'd reckon that major work on this would not begin until post-magic, when the development shifts focus on laws/property/customs features and later the economy. Town NPCs are planned to engage in more daily scheduled activities beyond strolling and going to the well, such as doing labor-related jobs. This means interacting (or at the very least, be in the presence of) workshops and items related to their professions, which in turn will require more differentiated buildings and more well-planned layouts. Further details like furnishing and decoration will probably tie into culture, customs, etc.

CDDA owes to its post-apocalyptic setting that facilities and stations are meant to be (mostly) abandoned/static.
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Ekaton

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Re: Future of the Fort
« Reply #3264 on: June 03, 2020, 05:19:00 am »

Thanks for the answer Toady. And thanks Toady and ThreeToe.

Is there a chance that we will see some changes to town and building generation sometime in the next update/s? The world of DF is truly massive, but towns, fortresses etc. completely lack any flavour - taverns, for example, are just some simple furniture, sometimes a bartender, some drunks, they never feel realistic or alive, and they're always too similar. This makes the adv mode rather unappealing.

Have you considered tile generation like the one used in Cataclysm: DDA? That can create simple variations (it has several thousand basic types and subtypes of buildings with different combinations - like ground floor A, combined with first floor B and basement C, with loot generated from appropriate sets, like house, shop, restaurant, petrol station - so it's always realistic). It combines simple house layouts written in simple code, to create cities that feel very realistic - kitchens always have appropriate cooking equipment, food, drinks, bedrooms have clothes and sheets, bathrooms are very random - some have medicine, some have drugs, they often have basic things like soap or razors. It's all rather simple but the effect is unlike any other game.

I think that DF would instantly become a very different and a much more advanced game with something like this.

(Lime green, the recommended color, is easier on the eyes than the green you used, but it will still work as a Toady attractor).

Not in the near future. The Myth & Magic arc (after the Big Wait, some 5 years or so from now) will be forced to rework human settlements to allow for the human race to be playable in fully mundane worlds. The map rewrite taking place during the Big Wait will probably introduce changes that invalidates some of the current logic for settlements anyway (at least it will allow for new things that don't exist and thus aren't generated generated currently), so they will probably have to be reworked for that reason alone, at least to some extent.
However, extensive work on one piece of the game (in this case site generation) by necessity has to come at the expense of work on any of the other urgent changes to the game when the game is a single programmer project. That said, Toady is known to spiral away on tangents and spend a fair bit of effort on seemingly minor details, but he probably won't know if that will be the case until it happens.
It can be noted that the necro towers and kobold caves were reworked as part of 0.47.01 because they had to be to handle the contents in that release, but also that Toady was shorter of time than usual due to the Premium release obligations, and those obligations are not getting less pressing when there's less time left.

Most site/structure changes seem to happen when they're required to by other features focal to the dev arc, like kobold caves (for artifacts) and barrows in neco sites that are meant to house the experiment critters. Obviously this isn't always the case; the new necro tower generation didn't require to change as far as I know, aside from making them look more distinct and sinister I guess. Then again, it probably wouldn't have been changed if necromancers weren't one of the major focuses of the villains update.

As for the town & building gen on the level of detail that FAA described (w/ CDDA as a model): the first entry on the old roadmap/long-term goals (bustling town arc) more or less addresses this. But based on this info, I'd reckon that major work on this would not begin until post-magic, when the development shifts focus on laws/property/customs features and later the economy. Town NPCs are planned to engage in more daily scheduled activities beyond strolling and going to the well, such as doing labor-related jobs. This means interacting (or at the very least, be in the presence of) workshops and items related to their professions, which in turn will require more differentiated buildings and more well-planned layouts. Further details like furnishing and decoration will probably tie into culture, customs, etc.

CDDA owes to its post-apocalyptic setting that facilities and stations are meant to be (mostly) abandoned/static.

Different games do different things right, but when it comes to roguelikes, Cataclysm has the most detailed world. Particularly so, as it’s very easy to add new stuff to it.

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/40696

This is just one example. A single person added 42 kinds of basements, making houses much more fun. He was able to do so because the world gen system that builds individual houses after determining the overall layout of structures and spawns roads, is easy to define. That’s it, I think that doing something similar with world gen migt benefit the game, making it easier to make more believeable buildings, and significantly shortening the time needed to do so.

But that’s leading to some OP, anyway, good question there.
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FAA

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3265 on: June 03, 2020, 05:29:15 am »

In short, yes, I wanted to highlight the world-gen mechanic because it can seriously speed things up.
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fort
« Reply #3266 on: June 03, 2020, 07:43:49 am »

Different games do different things right, but when it comes to roguelikes, Cataclysm has the most detailed world. Particularly so, as itís very easy to add new stuff to it.

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/40696

This is just one example. A single person added 42 kinds of basements, making houses much more fun. He was able to do so because the world gen system that builds individual houses after determining the overall layout of structures and spawns roads, is easy to define. Thatís it, I think that doing something similar with world gen migt benefit the game, making it easier to make more believeable buildings, and significantly shortening the time needed to do so.

But thatís leading to some OP, anyway, good question there.

Dwarf Fortress already does this, and doesn't generate maps at that granularity until you actually visit them physically in adventure mode or embark on top of them in dwarf mode.

Immortal-D

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3267 on: June 05, 2020, 07:33:58 am »

Has working on the Steam UI caused you to work on or otherwise revisit aspects of the game that you hadn't planned on getting to at this stage of development?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3268 on: June 05, 2020, 07:49:25 am »

Has working on the Steam UI caused you to work on or otherwise revisit aspects of the game that you hadn't planned on getting to at this stage of development?
Work on the UI hasn't started yet.
Well, it might have done by the end of the month I guess...
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3269 on: June 05, 2020, 09:45:16 am »

Any new insights on the new graphics architecture (e.g. separating the graphics from the saves)? Are you implementing it in parallel to the general graphics-rewrite, or has that part of the project yet to be started?

Edit: thanks, PatrikLundell
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