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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 916803 times)

AliceRed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3330 on: July 10, 2020, 02:38:26 pm »

I'm really late but the comparisons to CDDA are kind of shallow IMO, cataclysm's buidlings are pre-built chunks (just randomly populated with items and mobs) and adding them kind of goes contrary to this game's goals of having everything be generated, which is far off but is the goal.

To be fair, real-life buildings follow certain patterns so this would probably be the best way to do it. Create prefabs for the game to use, sets of furniture/items that match occupant’s civilisation, profession, wealth etc. and voila, a realistic world.

Except that Toady markedly has mentioned many times he isn't lookign to create a "realistic" world, just create a complete random fantasy world generator. He outright mentioned in the big Myth and Magic plans interview he'd like the way the world and culture is built to differ every game and depend on elements of the setting itself - like in a world where teleportation magic is easy, it being integrated into society more than say roads are. Combine this with his plans to eventually make it so that you can have every single race and creature in the game be procedurally generated if you like, and pre-built building chunks would feel shallow and artificial, which to me goes against the point of this project. I believe he's even mentioned plans to completely overhaul the way the entire game world is generated to better suit his goals in this regard, with a total map rework being the first step in the big wait.

What's more likely is that he'll try and make it so buildings generate schematics procedurally, especially as he answered one of my questions a while back about desiring other planes which are just endless buildings/dungeons like some depictions of hell are.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 02:42:13 pm by AliceRed »
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Pillbo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3331 on: July 10, 2020, 07:19:22 pm »

I'm really late but the comparisons to CDDA are kind of shallow IMO, cataclysm's buidlings are pre-built chunks (just randomly populated with items and mobs) and adding them kind of goes contrary to this game's goals of having everything be generated, which is far off but is the goal.

To be fair, real-life buildings follow certain patterns so this would probably be the best way to do it. Create prefabs for the game to use, sets of furniture/items that match occupant’s civilisation, profession, wealth etc. and voila, a realistic world.

Except that Toady markedly has mentioned many times he isn't lookign to create a "realistic" world, just create a complete random fantasy world generator. He outright mentioned in the big Myth and Magic plans interview he'd like the way the world and culture is built to differ every game and depend on elements of the setting itself - like in a world where teleportation magic is easy, it being integrated into society more than say roads are. Combine this with his plans to eventually make it so that you can have every single race and creature in the game be procedurally generated if you like, and pre-built building chunks would feel shallow and artificial, which to me goes against the point of this project. I believe he's even mentioned plans to completely overhaul the way the entire game world is generated to better suit his goals in this regard, with a total map rework being the first step in the big wait.

What's more likely is that he'll try and make it so buildings generate schematics procedurally, especially as he answered one of my questions a while back about desiring other planes which are just endless buildings/dungeons like some depictions of hell are.

I don't really see the difference. Right now procedurally generated things in the game are made from pre-made chunks and we're all happy. You take a body type, a material, some different biological features are added or removed, and sometimes a special attack, put it together and you get an enormous hairy slug made of filth with wings and two skinny tails, it squirms and fidgets, beware it's fire breath. That doesn't feel shallow or artificial just because I know slugs, filth, hair, wings, tails, fire breath, squirming are per-defined somewhere in the raws.

You can still generate schematics that mix and match different real and fantasy features of a buildings (materials, entrances, furniture, decorations, room layouts, size, tools, populating creatures, etc) from pre-defined chunks, put em together and generate a building. Sounds pretty similar to what people are saying CDDA does.
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AliceRed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3332 on: July 11, 2020, 02:42:13 am »

CDDA doesn't really do that though - as somebody who dearly loves and plays the game regularly, I can recognize when buildings repeat over and over. The only differences are item placement, mob population, and if windows are broken or not. Furniture, layout, etc. etc. are all completely pre-built, and sometimes even item placement is deterministic based off the building chunk loaded (such as there often being a region map at the top of radio towers).

I would be pretty annoyed if i set the "randomness" slider all the way to the side only to see the same buildings dwarves, elves, and other vanilla fantasy cultures use rather than something new and fitting of the different alien creatures such a world would create. If you read the far off dev plans and Toady's interviews re: magic, I find it strongly likely things will only get more complicated with time, not less so.
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KristoffPL

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3333 on: July 12, 2020, 09:35:56 am »

With new music coming to the Steam/itch.io release, will the 2 tracks already present in the current version of the game be remastered (re-recorded), removed from the game completely or left as is? I feel like a lot of people associate those particular tunes with Dwarf Fortress (myself included) and it would be a nice to be able to hear them in the new version of the game in some form :)
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Pillbo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3334 on: July 12, 2020, 04:29:20 pm »

CDDA doesn't really do that though - as somebody who dearly loves and plays the game regularly, I can recognize when buildings repeat over and over. The only differences are item placement, mob population, and if windows are broken or not. Furniture, layout, etc. etc. are all completely pre-built, and sometimes even item placement is deterministic based off the building chunk loaded (such as there often being a region map at the top of radio towers).

I would be pretty annoyed if i set the "randomness" slider all the way to the side only to see the same buildings dwarves, elves, and other vanilla fantasy cultures use rather than something new and fitting of the different alien creatures such a world would create. If you read the far off dev plans and Toady's interviews re: magic, I find it strongly likely things will only get more complicated with time, not less so.

It still sounds to me like we're mostly talking about the degrees of pre-built.  CDDA (again, just how it seems from these comments) uses floor plans + random items + random creatures + random damage.  If that was dozens-hundreds of variables that accounted for culture, biology, geology, environment, history and available resources would they all still feel the same? Is the system flawed or is it used differently for different game's needs?

Generally speaking, a way for people to create their own building designs (like raw-files for creatures) for their worlds to use is probably a good thing, especially since magic, customs, and economy stuff is all so far away. It doesn't mean it would need to replace a better procgen building system to come. Even after all those updates people would still want to design the buildings of their worlds for themed mods and whatnot.

Made me think of a question:

When the 'randomness' slider is in effect for worlds, will that change the composition of Forgotten Beast & other procgen creatures?  As in- would a low random world severely limit body plan & materials, or a high random world incorporate even more potential body plans.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3335 on: July 12, 2020, 04:45:38 pm »

Mostly what's been described so far is a "fantasy" slider. All the way up and everything is procedurally generated. Half-way (default) for Tolkien inspired fantasy plus some proc gen beasts, as we have now. And all the way down for no fantasy at all (human worlds).
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3336 on: July 12, 2020, 04:50:59 pm »

I'll just note that I've written a suggestion (which probably definitely needs to be rewritten and expanded) aimed specifically at providing a framework by which buildings (and districts, and even whole towns/fortresses) can be generated procedurally, and in a way that can be modded.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 04:53:21 pm by A_Curious_Cat »
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Ggobs

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3337 on: July 14, 2020, 05:55:04 pm »

I'm curious why monthly donations end in odd cents. I'm thinking exchange rates from foreign currencies?
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Just popping in to say that if DF has taught me anything, it's that everything is doomed.

LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3338 on: July 14, 2020, 06:03:17 pm »

 Paypal comissions?
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My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

AliceRed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3339 on: July 14, 2020, 07:42:22 pm »

Mostly what's been described so far is a "fantasy" slider. All the way up and everything is procedurally generated. Half-way (default) for Tolkien inspired fantasy plus some proc gen beasts, as we have now. And all the way down for no fantasy at all (human worlds).

Toady mentioned three sliders - fantasy, randomness and something akin to bleakness. Fantasy determines how much magic is in the world, randomness determines how much like traditional fantasy with predictable things like Dwarves and Elves it is, and the third one handles how grim and horrifying the setting is. You can see the early roots of the randomness slider just in the Mythgen snippets he showed years back - it presented completely abnormal and unusual races such as a race of magical lizard-people. The randomness slider will essentially affect how much the world is just like "normal" DF these days or it's something completely different.

On the topic of buildings, I would still prefer a framework for buildings to be genuinely generated and unique rather than drawing from simple templates, but I suppose it's better to ask Toady himself.

Do you think that the map rework or any future updates or changes will introduce a more dynamic and individualized way of generating buildings?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 07:44:12 pm by AliceRed »
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3340 on: July 14, 2020, 08:09:50 pm »

Toady mentioned three sliders - fantasy, randomness and something akin to bleakness.

Violence? IIRC, he mentioned worlds where nobody could get injured.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3341 on: July 14, 2020, 08:33:31 pm »

Toady mentioned three sliders - fantasy, randomness and something akin to bleakness.

Violence? IIRC, he mentioned worlds where nobody could get injured.
Yeah, no death at all to totally bleak and horrific. The "violence slider". I'm sure they'll all get better names in time when it's clear what they'll effect.
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3342 on: July 15, 2020, 06:05:50 am »

I'm really late but the comparisons to CDDA are kind of shallow IMO, cataclysm's buidlings are pre-built chunks (just randomly populated with items and mobs) and adding them kind of goes contrary to this game's goals of having everything be generated, which is far off but is the goal.

To be fair, real-life buildings follow certain patterns so this would probably be the best way to do it. Create prefabs for the game to use, sets of furniture/items that match occupant’s civilisation, profession, wealth etc. and voila, a realistic world.

Except that Toady markedly has mentioned many times he isn't lookign to create a "realistic" world, just create a complete random fantasy world generator. He outright mentioned in the big Myth and Magic plans interview he'd like the way the world and culture is built to differ every game and depend on elements of the setting itself - like in a world where teleportation magic is easy, it being integrated into society more than say roads are. Combine this with his plans to eventually make it so that you can have every single race and creature in the game be procedurally generated if you like, and pre-built building chunks would feel shallow and artificial, which to me goes against the point of this project. I believe he's even mentioned plans to completely overhaul the way the entire game world is generated to better suit his goals in this regard, with a total map rework being the first step in the big wait.

What's more likely is that he'll try and make it so buildings generate schematics procedurally, especially as he answered one of my questions a while back about desiring other planes which are just endless buildings/dungeons like some depictions of hell are.

I don't really see the difference. Right now procedurally generated things in the game are made from pre-made chunks and we're all happy. You take a body type, a material, some different biological features are added or removed, and sometimes a special attack, put it together and you get an enormous hairy slug made of filth with wings and two skinny tails, it squirms and fidgets, beware it's fire breath. That doesn't feel shallow or artificial just because I know slugs, filth, hair, wings, tails, fire breath, squirming are per-defined somewhere in the raws.

You can still generate schematics that mix and match different real and fantasy features of a buildings (materials, entrances, furniture, decorations, room layouts, size, tools, populating creatures, etc) from pre-defined chunks, put em together and generate a building. Sounds pretty similar to what people are saying CDDA does.
In what old DF version if goblins steal elven, human and dwarven children, they build dwarven, human and elven buildings in dark pits and dark fortress?
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Pillbo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3343 on: July 18, 2020, 12:23:54 pm »


I know this type of thing is hard to predict, but a question about the Myth/Magic/Map Rewrite. Assuming the (hopefully) extreme estimates are correct it could be 4+ years for the whole update.  What I was wondering about is how modular that map rewrite code itself will be. I know the myth/magic stuff can't work without the map rewrite, but could the current game work with the map rewrite? If the rewrite doesn't break the game would there be any benefit to releasing that part to break up the Long Wait?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3344 on: July 18, 2020, 12:27:37 pm »


I know this type of thing is hard to predict, but a question about the Myth/Magic/Map Rewrite. Assuming the (hopefully) extreme estimates are correct it could be 4+ years for the whole update.  What I was wondering about is how modular that map rewrite code itself will be. I know the myth/magic stuff can't work without the map rewrite, but could the current game work with the map rewrite? If the rewrite doesn't break the game would there be any benefit to releasing that part to break up the Long Wait?


I think that's the plan. A release with just the map rewrite would be kind of anticlimactic so part of the Myth&Magic release will come with it, and the rest of it will be packed in subsequent post-Big Wait releases.
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