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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1077396 times)

Schmaven

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3585 on: October 20, 2020, 09:05:43 am »

Adventure mode feels like a broken game - and this is coming from a fan of "walking simulators"!

It feels about 53% or so incomplete to me.
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I! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3586 on: October 20, 2020, 09:40:07 am »

Will next release contains more about night creatures?
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3587 on: October 20, 2020, 10:33:49 am »

Not really no, next release is the steam support and graphical/ui release. There may be night creature graphical sprites though.
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Rose

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3588 on: October 22, 2020, 10:34:50 am »

How will the stockpile size selector work when you have multiple sized people in your fortress?

I want true multicultural forts.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3589 on: October 23, 2020, 03:04:22 am »

I'm with Rose on the size selector issue.

One way would be to have it open a sub menu where you select the size(s) you want, with quick options for dwarves and current fort resident races (preferably including members currently out on a raid), that can then be further modified to e.g. add the humans you plan/hope to get, as well as inversions (so you can set up stockpiles for the junk you want to get rid of).
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Buttery_Mess

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Re: Future of the an opportunity to revise
« Reply #3590 on: October 30, 2020, 06:21:30 am »

Do you have any plans to take s second pass at trees and tree growth? It occurs to me that DF vanilla elves are supposed to have tree shaping magic, so M&M would be an opportunity to look at plants. I'm not saying the way trees grow is bad- it's a world of improvement over the prior 1 tile trees- but the way they burst out of the ground suddenly fully formed, and die in a puff of logs, could use a little more granularity, and it would be nice if dwarves could plant trees or suppress tree growth. Would the map rewrite help with this, for instance, making it possible to rotate felled trees through a horizontal dimension, or to render arbitrarily large or ambulatory trees (like a World Tree or Treant?)

Sorry if this comes across suggesty, I was just wondering if it might be in the cards.
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eightball8776

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3591 on: October 30, 2020, 10:43:39 am »

1. With all of the creation myth features being planned, are apocalypses and the end of the world something you have considered adding? If so, how do you envision them working? Would they just end the game or would they be something you can play during or even after?

2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 10:45:34 am by eightball8776 »
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Manveru Taurnr

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3592 on: October 30, 2020, 11:00:50 am »

1. With all of the creation myth features being planned, are apocalypses and the end of the world something you have considered adding? If so, how do you envision them working? Would they just end the game or would they be something you can play during or even after?

2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?


If you want some info on some of their thoughts on apocalyptic events I recommend Threetoes Tales Foretold stories, specifically the first one, as it tells of a world having suffered 2 apocalyptic events which majorly changed how magic and the divine worked, and a creature looking to bring on a third so as to make himself the sole god (if I remember correctly). The analysis at the end gives a nice mechanical summary as well:

Quote
One of the aspects of this universe that we wanted to emphasize was the passage between the ages, which is more prominent here than in the last story involving magic (see that story's analysis for more on magic systems and metaphysics, as well as the dev page). There aren't always discrete boundaries -- much like the current DF, the world's balance can change slowly as magical creatures are killed, for example, or as rifts are shut in a multiple-rift/portal apocalypse scenario. Those apocalypse scenarios themselves, on the other hand, set a clear era boundary. The Tales Foretold setting had eight named periods involving two apocalyptic events, and several gradual changes. Sometimes the gradual changes don't involve the fading of magical forces, but rather their growth/flowering through a period of research and stability to the point where the name of the era justifiably changes. The Golden Age and Dulchari period of the Tales Foretold setting worked this way.

We'll save some of the details for a future story, but another aspect of this universe to emphasize is the interconnected mechanics like soul cradles, lines of fate, and material transmutation (in DF, this configuration would be a generated part of one universe). Magical research in the Tales Foretold system involved understanding these building blocks, and then merging them together in new ways. The access to new worlds caused by the first Nightmare Apocalypse allowed additional forms of magic to be incorporated into existing native systems, leading to the more complicated magic used by the Dulchari wizards. When Cenaster separated the world from other planes, certain forms of magic ceased to work, and it also changed the mechanics of the afterlife. In Dwarf Fortress, systematizing the way the basic metaphysical aspects of the world work will cause these effects to happen as consequences of these sorts of disasters, and ideally they'd also be able to adapt to player-led changes in the structure of the universe.

Edit: I think biomes changing through magic comes up in a few of the stories as well, can't remember the name atm, but there's one for example where iirc an exiled elf returns to the forest and desecrates the magical lake where the forest spirit lives, shifting the biome into an evil one.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 11:02:49 am by Manveru Taurnr »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3593 on: October 30, 2020, 11:19:10 am »

1.
:
2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?

Definitely.

The current spread of evil from certain kinds of demons and from necromancers is implemented as a hack in the current system, but sphere contests should shift boundaries, and events should allow new sphere influences to appear and disappear (and probably move as well).
The map rewrite should support these more fluid borders. An issue that has been brought up is what should happen with the flora and fauna on a change of an important influence. Fish dying off as the water disappear is easy, but if an ocean is created at the center of a continent, how would it be populated (magic is one way, of course, and we have real world natural experiments such as e.g. Surtsey)? It is, of course, possible to just say "biome X with properties A, B, and C just appeared. Roll up a random set of flora and fauna matching these parameters, i.e. essentially what current world gen does.
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3594 on: October 30, 2020, 12:45:28 pm »

2. Will the map rewrite allow biomes to change during world gen, either through natural processes or through some kind of artificial or magical means?

Quote from: MalroktheIII
Time for my newest round of stupid, far off, likely already asked, questions for you!
1:When you change world gen for the myth arc, what specific geographic features are you hoping for (either in general, or in particular)
2: With said new world gen, do you have any thoughts on how will biomes work? If you are planning a change on that front, what?
3: How long until you have working evolution (joke question, but still)
Bonus question: 1&2, but with alternate planes.
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8157663#msg8157663

The first step with the map rewrite is to create a structure which will support what we want to do, whether that's with planes or real world land/waterforms, etc.  In no particular order, one list we have is different distant/time scales, a general framework for world spanning features like rivers that will allow world trees or ley lines or tortoises or whatever), world edges, connectors like rainbow bridges/multiplanar rivers, multiple view ports, boats and moving map segments/shifting mazes, shadow/veil concepts, recursive/fractal/'levels of reality'/micro-macrocosm concepts, non-rectangular world shapes (giant pillar, tubes, giant pit, etc., though we likely won't attempt traditional spheres, as wrapping abilities are limited by the grid), better geological layers/intrusions/cliffs/eroded features, support for linkages between rivers/caves entrances/etc., support for small sites (logging camps, crossroad inns, etc.), support for nomadic groups sites (the current tents the armies use are horrible), ability to support world-spanning settlements, portals (various), faerie-type border zones, infinite worlds (not that there's memory for that, but the ability to reshift focus), liquid/air/etc. based worlds, auras/fields/mists/wtvr and restructure good/evil-type sphere links, compatability with astronomical or larger universe concepts, support for regional/world natural disasters and resulting map changes (and map repair like forest regrowth), places in the clouds, underground oceans and other improved underground linkages/structure/features, consider support for broader liquid/material types in terrain, large vortices/whirlwinds/etc., z-level buildings/doors/etc., merging/mixing planes, teleporting sites, illusions of various kinds (non-tactile, tactile but impermanent in some way.)

No way we're getting to all or even most of that on the first pass!  But we're hoping to create a backbone that support it all.  I also have a few other lists around that are mostly in that one up there, but I doubt that's everything.

Biomes relate to a lot of that, how they are contained or how they can change and bleed together, and what sort of ecological simming we can get away with.  Ultimately we'll still need to have rainfall, temperature, drainage, present species, and that sort of thing, and the existing classifications aren't bad there.

The bolded parts are the most relevant to your question, but as questions about the map rewrite are common, I figured putting the entire quote here wouldn't hurt. Basically, yes, or at least there will be further support to make it easy-ish to add later. As there is already a decent system for biomes, and that evil levels can already be changed, I'd be surprised if Toady taking another look at it won't lead to some improvements.

Schmaven

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3595 on: October 30, 2020, 04:58:26 pm »

From the bottom of the October 22nd steam update: https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/975370?emclan=103582791464215078&emgid=2930114451182913855,
"This pile has been set to accept only bronze armor, for example. Not just that, but it'll only accept bronze armor which can be worn by dwarves. If the armor with the X at the top is turned on, it would also accept bronze armor for humans, which might show up in an invasion. This allows you to separate out junk, for example, so you can melt it down more easily. Note also that you can rule objects in and out by type, by quality, and so on."

I like the idea of being able to separate out junk for easier melting / trading away.  Worn clothing also tends to accumulate fairly quickly.

What other criteria might be available to sort items by in stockpiles?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3596 on: October 31, 2020, 03:17:42 am »

From the bottom of the October 22nd steam update: https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/975370?emclan=103582791464215078&emgid=2930114451182913855,
"This pile has been set to accept only bronze armor, for example. Not just that, but it'll only accept bronze armor which can be worn by dwarves. If the armor with the X at the top is turned on, it would also accept bronze armor for humans, which might show up in an invasion. This allows you to separate out junk, for example, so you can melt it down more easily. Note also that you can rule objects in and out by type, by quality, and so on."

I like the idea of being able to separate out junk for easier melting / trading away.  Worn clothing also tends to accumulate fairly quickly.

What other criteria might be available to sort items by in stockpiles?
Well, yes, my interpretation of that is that that image allowed you to sort according to dwarf size armor and non dwarf size armor, with humans just being an example. With that interpretation, the non dwarf size armor setting would also receive the useless troll sized and ogre sized junk. Hence the need for more granularity.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3597 on: October 31, 2020, 08:28:04 am »

Does are any plans of making trade depots an "area" like worshops in the future?

This got me thinking, once economy is started again, a single trade depot would work? What about having several "depots" at once, each dedicated to specific goods or trade partners, different sizes and whatnot. Or having a single huge market area for everyone, external an internal traders?

Sorry if it derived towards a suggestion, the main question is still adecuate I think.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3598 on: October 31, 2020, 11:54:08 am »

Does are any plans of making trade depots an "area" like worshops in the future?

This got me thinking, once economy is started again, a single trade depot would work? What about having several "depots" at once, each dedicated to specific goods or trade partners, different sizes and whatnot. Or having a single huge market area for everyone, external an internal traders?

Sorry if it derived towards a suggestion, the main question is still adecuate I think.
DF currently has trouble with multiple trade depots (although that can very well have been fixed before that far off future event). Dedications to trade goods makes sense only if caravans are dedicated, although market places could be dedicated while caravans still visited the depot. However, I don't know what use a market place would be of in a fortress, unless dorf actually earn money (in whatever form) and have to spend it to get things (unless it's a fortress assigned military uniform, or tool). Multiple markets seem to be a recipe for wasting a lot of space, though.

It can be noted that the trade depot as zone is incompatible with the current stockpile system, as all the junk brought in by caravans would need an enormous amount of space to be placed according to the stockpile rules of one stack/container per tile, so doing away with the magical quantum stockpiling trade depot would open up a number of issues.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3599 on: October 31, 2020, 01:06:24 pm »

Well, is no the intention for the future to implement precisely that? Wages, taxes and selling/buy of goods in the fortress by your own citizens and visitors?

Even in an scenario were you have but soldiers like a strictly military outpost they would probably need payment and spend some of it on a local tavern or a nearby place outside your map whenever on a leave (if such thing is implemented)?

In a civil or mixed fortress it would necessarily need either market (be it zones were the sellers erect selling stands or dedicated workshops), trade depots or perhaps buying directly from stockpiles or producing workshops. While differentiation on the "government" and private industry, if such thing as private industry is implemented is due for the tax part. At any rate this is devolving much from the original spirit of my question. Since workshops are to be "zonified" in the nebulous future, I wonder if this would be done for trade depots too.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 01:13:23 pm by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!
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