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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1669663 times)

ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3615 on: November 05, 2020, 02:01:10 pm »


*orignially wanted to post this to the Steam tileset feedback but it seems to be out of scope for just tileset changes*

I wanted to bring up (lack of) shadows of the mountains.
Slopes have their individual shadows - on the last email update images the "sun" seems to be in the "north". If there is a shadow at all - it's not midday, hence it would naturally follow that a mountain of z levels above would have a multiplying, overlapping shadow that extends on the grass that's below it on the screen.

Seeing that change over time would also be insanely beneficial for immersion.
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Immortal-D

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3616 on: November 07, 2020, 08:55:30 pm »

Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access?  Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3617 on: November 07, 2020, 11:40:41 pm »

Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access?  Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?
Last word was that he didn't want to do early access, as that would imply there was a complete game on the way sometime soon before Steam goes bankrupt in 30 years time. Will likely be up to Steam in the end though. Unreal World isn't Early Access and that a very similar model with a similar "might take two or three more lifetimes to finish everything" development plan.

Steam gives you access to a tileset and music tracks. It's the same game otherwise. Two bug trackers would be meaningless.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3618 on: November 08, 2020, 03:34:06 am »

Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access?  Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?
Last word was that he didn't want to do early access, as that would imply there was a complete game on the way sometime soon before Steam goes bankrupt in 30 years time. Will likely be up to Steam in the end though. Unreal World isn't Early Access and that a very similar model with a similar "might take two or three more lifetimes to finish everything" development plan.

Steam gives you access to a tileset and music tracks. It's the same game otherwise. Two bug trackers would be meaningless.
DF is similar to UrW in the sense that both are eternity projects, but extremely dissimilar in that UrW is focused on keeping the game playable and as bug free as humanly possible, while DF is a "you're along for the ride" project where adding stuff is much more important than balance, playability, and bugs. The commercial launch of DF may well result in the project being pushed to give a higher weight to playability and bug fixing than what's been the case in the past, but it's extremely unlikely that it will come anywhere close to the UrW development model (and I'm not sure that would be good for either DF or Toady anyway).
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3619 on: November 08, 2020, 04:55:19 am »

Regarding Steam: Given DF's extreme long-term development roadmap, are you planning to release the game labeled as Early Access?  Also, will Steam have its' own bug reporting, or will you redirect Steam players to Mantis?
Last word was that he didn't want to do early access, as that would imply there was a complete game on the way sometime soon before Steam goes bankrupt in 30 years time. Will likely be up to Steam in the end though. Unreal World isn't Early Access and that a very similar model with a similar "might take two or three more lifetimes to finish everything" development plan.

Steam gives you access to a tileset and music tracks. It's the same game otherwise. Two bug trackers would be meaningless.
DF is similar to UrW in the sense that both are eternity projects, but extremely dissimilar in that UrW is focused on keeping the game playable and as bug free as humanly possible, while DF is a "you're along for the ride" project where adding stuff is much more important than balance, playability, and bugs. The commercial launch of DF may well result in the project being pushed to give a higher weight to playability and bug fixing than what's been the case in the past, but it's extremely unlikely that it will come anywhere close to the UrW development model (and I'm not sure that would be good for either DF or Toady anyway).
So you think Steam will force an Early Access label on Dwarf Fortress because it has bugs?
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FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3620 on: November 08, 2020, 07:51:59 am »

Nowadays graphic work and Interface design for Steam version is  focused in Fortress mode. I remember having read once that is not the same making tiles for Fortress mode than Adventure mode due some diferences betwen both ones. It's possible that I can be in a mistake, for that reason I decided not colour my question in green lime until somebody could say me if I was wrong or not.

My question:

How much of done graphic work could be represented in adventure mode in this moment? How differents are both modes respect to tiles or interfaces implementation? Could it mean double task?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 07:47:12 am by FrankVill »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3621 on: November 08, 2020, 08:00:18 am »

:
So you think Steam will force an Early Access label on Dwarf Fortress because it has bugs?
No. I've made the mistake of donating to Steam in the hope of being granted a license to play a game (which was granted, as expected), only to find it ended abruptly (as in: the story arc didn't have any continuation, with the sandbox part still active) well before an expected halfway point. A number of years later it's supposedly finished. Thus, I doubt Steam cares much, and so my totally uneducated guess is that they won't force the label on DF.

My point was that the comparison between UrW and DF isn't a fair one. The former is a polished game in perpetual development, while the latter is riddled with bugs and half finished features similar to what you'd expect in Early Access (at least for the cases where it isn't more like early alpha), with no indication that the situation would change drastically before nearing completion. I still believe DF should use the Early Access tag, as it would better describe the game's state and future (in the absence of a Perpetual Development indication that still would need to be qualified).
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3622 on: November 08, 2020, 09:52:45 am »

:
So you think Steam will force an Early Access label on Dwarf Fortress because it has bugs?
No. I've made the mistake of donating to Steam in the hope of being granted a license to play a game (which was granted, as expected), only to find it ended abruptly (as in: the story arc didn't have any continuation, with the sandbox part still active) well before an expected halfway point. A number of years later it's supposedly finished. Thus, I doubt Steam cares much, and so my totally uneducated guess is that they won't force the label on DF.

My point was that the comparison between UrW and DF isn't a fair one. The former is a polished game in perpetual development, while the latter is riddled with bugs and half finished features similar to what you'd expect in Early Access (at least for the cases where it isn't more like early alpha), with no indication that the situation would change drastically before nearing completion. I still believe DF should use the Early Access tag, as it would better describe the game's state and future (in the absence of a Perpetual Development indication that still would need to be qualified).

At the same time, normally an game being unfinished (deserving of the early access label) means it is not yet ”a full game”, lacking in features and content. Dwarf Fortress is still in-development, but fortress mode is definitely (and has been for a while) ”a full game”. From that point of view, labeling it early access would be strongly misleading.

In conclusion, the true nature of Dwarf Fortress is a blur. But - a choice must be made if the game is to be sold on Steam. Having it not be early access is the obvious choice, as otherwise possible buyers will needlessly wait for the ”actual release” which won’t arrive in decades.

Nowadays graphic work and Interface design for Steam version is  focused in Fortress mode. I remember having read once that is not the same making tiles for Fortress mode than Adventure mode due some diferences betwen both ones. It's possible that I can be in a mistake, for that reason I decided not colour my question in green lime until somebody could say me if I was wrong or not.

My question:

How much of done graphic work could be represented in adventure mode in this moment? How differents are both modes respect to tiles or interfaces implementation? Could it mean double task?

Even if the answer is known by some fringe of the community, there’s nothing wrong with asking a question directly to Tarn. If it is answered in this thread before the end of the month, he’ll link to the answers and say ”yeah what they said” in the FotF reply, and that way others that didn’t know it and who don’t comb this thread still get to know the answer.

ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3623 on: November 09, 2020, 05:50:30 am »

While I understand the "full game" sentiment, it does not seem to apply to, say, Caves of Qud.

It undergoes UI redesign just as Df does, it has releases that break stuff and screw the balance just as Df does, but it does appear in Steam as early access game and is rated Overwhelmingly positive.
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3624 on: November 09, 2020, 06:49:08 am »

Caves of Qud has a scheduled full release in 2021. It's a favorable position that DF sadly cannot afford, already being set in tracks for a much later full release (when would you even cut if off for a "new" 1.0, if you had to? what has to be done, at a minimum?). The readily available options seem to me to be either having the game in perpetual early access, which could be detrimental due to potential buyers avoiding early access, or releasing it as a full game, which could be detrimental due to player's high expectations when it comes to polish, negatively affecting the reviews.
In the end, I'm an amateur at best when it comes to sales decisions, so I'll just trust Kitfox' (and Tarn+Zach) on this, which currently seems to be to release DF as a full game.

FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3625 on: November 09, 2020, 07:45:00 am »

Nowadays graphic work and Interface design for Steam version is  focused in Fortress mode. I remember having read once that is not the same making tiles for Fortress mode than Adventure mode due some diferences betwen both ones. It's possible that I can be in a mistake, for that reason I decided not colour my question in green lime until somebody could say me if I was wrong or not.

My question:

How much of done graphic work could be represented in adventure mode in this moment? How differents are both modes respect to tiles or interfaces implementation? Could it mean double task?

Even if the answer is known by some fringe of the community, there’s nothing wrong with asking a question directly to Tarn. If it is answered in this thread before the end of the month, he’ll link to the answers and say ”yeah what they said” in the FotF reply, and that way others that didn’t know it and who don’t comb this thread still get to know the answer.

You are right. I'll change colour, thanks.
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mosshadow

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3626 on: November 10, 2020, 03:01:53 pm »

I want to ask this question, but I have a feeling its already been asked before though I can't find it in a search of the thread. Has anyone asked Toady if Werebeasts/Vampires will change their personality after being cursed in response to their nature in future versions. Because as I understand it, they continue on acting as normal until they need to feed or the fullmoon strikes. Also other dwarfs cannot remember a specific dwarf being the werebeast even if it slaughters people in front of them after transforming.

Does anyone know if this question has been asked in an older version of this thread?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3627 on: November 10, 2020, 04:05:21 pm »

I want to ask this question, but I have a feeling its already been asked before though I can't find it in a search of the thread. Has anyone asked Toady if Werebeasts/Vampires will change their personality after being cursed in response to their nature in future versions. Because as I understand it, they continue on acting as normal until they need to feed or the fullmoon strikes. Also other dwarfs cannot remember a specific dwarf being the werebeast even if it slaughters people in front of them after transforming.

Does anyone know if this question has been asked in an older version of this thread?
Don't recall it so you may as well ask. Although it's more of a suggestion than a question about upcoming plans. Nothing's planned specifically for werebeasts in the near future (although Mythgen when we eventually get there will likely get them looked at again).
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ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3628 on: November 12, 2020, 07:37:07 am »

1. Have you considered opening an official DF swag shop? It would surely put a few coins in the piggybank...
2. Since the beta is not in the cards, could we get the next best thing - more screenshots of your test runs? I'm waiting Thursdays like a madman only to have few tiny cropped images to look at.
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MC

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3629 on: November 12, 2020, 07:44:41 am »

Is how, uhhh, religious worlds tend to get with age intended? I know dwarves doing stuff like being members of multiple organized religions is a bug, but older worlds also have a huge proliferation of priests, to the point where a bit before the necros take over everything almost every npc you talk to is some sort of holy crystal or sacred smoke or something.
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