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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 380202 times)

Miuramir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #495 on: June 25, 2018, 01:51:55 pm »

Slade, adamantine, and the spoiler in general will be procgen. Replaced by generated materials. Or in some worlds, the spoiler would be totally different or would not exist at all. Hell, maybe some worlds would be based on giant floating islands floating in the void and digging too deep would simply cause your miner to fall into the void and die. That sort of thing.

This matches what I understand as well.  The current backstory of DF implies that the primary structure is more or less flat layers, but with a moving sun; I sometimes think of it as sort of a region on a magical variant of an Alderson Disk or some similar construct.  "Slade" is reasonably analogous to "scrith", a fantastically durable "basement" material that allows building various megastructures or fantastic architecture without all the limitations of traditional matter. 

But that is only one myth, and in the future we will have many!  The special material one finds while digging deep might well be a mystically buoyant super-pumice, formed from the mixed spray and debris when the Orb of Order crashed into the Sea of Chaos.  Life exists on the floating chunks of pumice that have accumulated enough ordered matter to hold together against the Sea, and the demons of chaos try to work their way up through naturally formed tubes, or the mines of the greedy.  This is an example of a world structure that gives vaguely similar effects (demons from below, associated with an element, special material in between, surface is more mundane in small areas but weirder at larger scales, etc.); but with interestingly different game implications (more Law vs. Chaos than Good vs. Evil; the tricky lower layers are based on seawater (possibly with associated syndromes due to the chaos) rather than magma, etc.).  Yet it should not require an enormous number of new systems; most of what I described above could be handled by existing code or fairly straightforward extensions of such. 

A "cosmic egg" myth has already been used as the example in one of the talks IIRC, where presumably fragments of the shell would be important.  Or, what if you think you're on a fairly normal world, but digging deep you hit a layer of something described as "Megachelonian Scute"?  Is it turtles all the way down?  And what sort of creatures might infect a world-turtle's blood... "The Megasalmonella strikes Urist in the upper body with its flagella!"

Of course, one also considers what can be done to vary even within the current structure.  An unusual characteristic of the traditional DF setting is that magma is very easy to get down to; is the DF world the creation of an impatient deity or pantheon, who didn't want to wait billions of years for the world to cool and spawn life, so built a layer of slade over the molten planet to hurry it all along?  Is DF actually a post-apocalyptic setting, where the gods mostly lost the material plane where the majority of their worshipers lived, and had to hastily build a redoubt of slade covered with a thin layer of rock and organics so that the free races could survive and breed more worshipers?  These very different interpretations could result in almost identical mechanics, at least until scientists, clerics, and adventurers start poking things to see how they work.  And it illustrates that even with a set of "real" exotic mechanics, differing myths could spring up among different cultures and races as to *why* the world is the way it is. 
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #496 on: June 25, 2018, 11:47:49 pm »

Hey Toady, good work on the update.

What is the difference between "vassal" sites and "economically linked" sites from a gameplay point of view? Economically linked ones are the ones that peacefully align themselves to you, right? Will they have the same functions and uses as normal vassal sites or do you plan on making them more different, giving them other uses or limiting them in their uses compared to vassals?

Did you already decide what you'll work on in this coming month? Will there be more improving/fixing/tweaking of the site administration stuff for now or will you jump straight to one of the next things (villains/adventure mode parties/mounts/etc)?

Did you and your brother come closer to a conclusion about how you'll handle mounts in the game? There were some interesting game design questions in the past about the implementation of mounts and because you said they are potentially one of the next things being worked on I was wondering if you have a better idea of what you want to do with them by now. For example: How to balance player control vs the animal having its own mind and also whether mounts will come to fort mode before the big wait or adventure mode only for now? If nothing changed in regards to the design of mounts, just answer "nope".


Thanks Toadster.

Edit: Rephrased questions a bit.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 07:57:27 am by Death Dragon »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #497 on: June 26, 2018, 03:30:52 am »

Hey Toady, good work on the update.

What is the difference between vassal sites and economically linked sites? Economically linked ones are the ones that peacefully align themselves to you, right? Do they have/ will they have the same uses as normal vassal sites or will they have other, different uses?

Did you already decide what you'll work on in the immediate future? More improving/fixing/tweaking of the site administration stuff or will you jump straight to the next feature?

Did you conclude more about how you'll handle mounts in the game? How to balance player control vs the animal having its own mind and whether mounts will come to fort mode before the big wait or only to adventure mode?


Ow that's a lot for Toady to answer

I would initially say your observation on economic sites being peaceful is correct, but also that it has a essence of scalability in that the sites now have implicit worldgenerated economic growth based in how many hamlets and minor sites 'migrate' to surround them (even without a formalised economy, more about how populous & central the site is) and your own site growing in wealth mimics this.

Toady, I believe it was mentioned somewhere on the changelog that you implemented a fix to address county titles not upgrading themselves according to nobles, are you still satisfied with the active jobs quota for county title "level up" and state of the county system in general now that other civilization factors are coming into play or is this currently pending your attention later on in development? Your thoughts on the matter would be interesting


> Toady has a number of development goal candidates at this given moment, ever a free spirit though they may go off on a tangent as seen by this unscheduled arc particularly.

I don't believe he's really spoken about mounts in depth within terms of using them in the game (probably a wise decision until the details about implementation is finalised so they don't railroad themselves into a particular course of action), but certainly the application of mounts in the game. Old DF talks detail little adventure mode taming minigames.


Quote from: Seperate Question
Do exile ethical reprecussions now utilise the expulsion mechanic in fortress mode to make people leave? i've not had opportunity to try but i am curious to enquire whether its a fine minor detail you implemented and forgot to point out/left behind for players to find. Maybe i was reading too much into it perhaps.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 03:43:41 am by FantasticDorf »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #498 on: June 26, 2018, 05:33:04 am »

Quote
Quote from: Seperate Question
Do exile ethical reprecussions now utilise the expulsion mechanic in fortress mode to make people leave? i've not had opportunity to try but i am curious to enquire whether its a fine minor detail you implemented and forgot to point out/left behind for players to find. Maybe i was reading too much into it perhaps.

Is it actually possible to get dorfs to break any of the ethics and suffer the repercussions right now?
Kill_Entity_Member never seems to result in capital punishment right now (unless accidentally killed by beating) and I'm not sure which (if any) ethic dorfs who miss a mandate deadline are breaking (or if it can be changed).
You could try making Assault punishable by Exile I guess. That might work (if indeed, it actually does work now - which I'm fairly doubtful of).

--edit
Oh, wiki says it's oath_breaking for mandate skipping. I guess that's not working then as it's set at "Punish_capital" but only seems to result in a sometimes fatal beating (and not at all if your hammerer is armed with a candy hammer).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:39:54 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #499 on: June 26, 2018, 07:23:20 am »


Is it actually possible to get dorfs to break any of the ethics and suffer the repercussions right now?
Kill_Entity_Member never seems to result in capital punishment right now (unless accidentally killed by beating) and I'm not sure which (if any) ethic dorfs who miss a mandate deadline are breaking (or if it can be changed).
You could try making Assault punishable by Exile I guess. That might work (if indeed, it actually does work now - which I'm fairly doubtful of).

--edit
Oh, wiki says it's oath_breaking for mandate skipping. I guess that's not working then as it's set at "Punish_capital" but only seems to result in a sometimes fatal beating (and not at all if your hammerer is armed with a candy hammer).

Yes they are able to partake in unlawful activity whilst not in a mental breakdown tantrum (with a yellow !) but i've yet to see a vandalization happen in the more recent versions, i had a goblin in one of my fortresses start throwing his wooden drinking cup around the bar while drunkenly brawling, goblins being poor at holding their drink and very angry anyway all started joining in and i soon regretted not building a hospital and turn off the tavern keeper tap-service.

Punish_capital is execution, which if memory serves requires a hammerer/modded equivilent (modded ones can use any weapon, axes are popular) so isn't really helpful pre-justice or if you have no justice nobles. You see it mostly in the cases of vampires, which are pretty clear cut for murdering other citizens outright while being a member of your fortress.

Punish remprimand im not sure but i think may either be a verbal warning or a beating by subordinate law enforcement guards/sheriff
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #500 on: June 26, 2018, 07:58:14 am »

Ow that's a lot for Toady to answer
Huh, I thought my questions were nothing compared to the flood of myth gen/ magic related questions he gets, but alright, I rephrased my questions a bit to make them clearer because I think you kinda missed the point on them.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #501 on: June 26, 2018, 08:45:16 am »

Quote
Punish_capital is execution, which if memory serves requires a hammerer/modded equivilent
Yes, so it seems that either dwarves are really reluctant executioners or punish_capital isn't working. Death by hammerer very much comes across as accidental.
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pikachu17

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #502 on: June 26, 2018, 09:49:58 am »

What happens if during a raid, someone holding an artifact dies, either one of your soldiers or someone of the raided place?
Also, when you explore a cave or lair, they don't seem to find dragons and other megabeasts. Why?

Witty

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #503 on: June 27, 2018, 07:06:26 pm »

Right now, all subterranean water sources are huge pools of stagnant water. With the underground rewrite that's been hinted to occur around the mythgen update, will we see a return of flowing underground cave rivers?
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I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.

scourge728

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #504 on: June 27, 2018, 10:16:44 pm »

What is the range for "nearby" sites joining you?

Does it work with sites who's parent civ you are at war with?

JesterHell696

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #505 on: June 27, 2018, 10:17:56 pm »

How mod-able do you intend the first pass of the myth gen and magic to be?

I ask because in the suggestion forums it was suggested that the first pass was going to be less/un mod-able.

I know that what is intended might not make the finale cut but as someone with a desire to mod in a specific magic system (Dominions 4) I'm really curious as to what the "goal" is in term of mod-ability.
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #506 on: June 27, 2018, 10:21:30 pm »

What is the range for "nearby" sites joining you?

Does it work with sites who's parent civ you are at war with?

It's not supposed to work with other civs yet (but currently does anyway, leading to some buggy behavior).
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scourge728

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #507 on: June 27, 2018, 11:05:21 pm »

I see, well my first question still stands I think

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #508 on: June 28, 2018, 01:47:58 am »

How mod-able do you intend the first pass of the myth gen and magic to be?

I ask because in the suggestion forums it was suggested that the first pass was going to be less/un mod-able.

I know that what is intended might not make the finale cut but as someone with a desire to mod in a specific magic system (Dominions 4) I'm really curious as to what the "goal" is in term of mod-ability.
There will be a fixed world editor in which you can add your own myth, your own artifacts, your own historical figures and so on to create an exact non-procedural fantasy world. I guess not right away, although he said it's a possibility.

Prototype mythgen already has basic modding features for generating procgen worlds, but yeah, would be nice to see what's planned overall (have a feeling the same question was answered a month or two back actually - will check).
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #509 on: June 28, 2018, 01:55:25 am »

What prototype modding features? I don't remember it being in the interview, was the prototype made available?
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