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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 379753 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #510 on: June 28, 2018, 03:48:01 am »

What prototype modding features? I don't remember it being in the interview, was the prototype made available?
In the video (GDC 2016, maybe?)
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #511 on: June 28, 2018, 04:12:52 am »

How mod-able do you intend the first pass of the myth gen and magic to be?

I ask because in the suggestion forums it was suggested that the first pass was going to be less/un mod-able.

I know that what is intended might not make the finale cut but as someone with a desire to mod in a specific magic system (Dominions 4) I'm really curious as to what the "goal" is in term of mod-ability.
There will be a fixed world editor in which you can add your own myth, your own artifacts, your own historical figures and so on to create an exact non-procedural fantasy world. I guess not right away, although he said it's a possibility.

Prototype mythgen already has basic modding features for generating procgen worlds, but yeah, would be nice to see what's planned overall (have a feeling the same question was answered a month or two back actually - will check).
Well, info is all scattered about, but here's two replies touching on mods from the past few months, one of which definitely disputes the assumption made in that thread that nothing in Mythgen will ever be moddable:

On raws:
Quote
I'm not sure what the first magic system raws will look like, so it's a bit early to say.  It's going to need a large change, but the existing interaction/syndrome framework will probably survive, even if interactions get hammered quite a bit.  I'm going to focus on straightforward support for the new effects, rather than trying to overload existing tools, but I'm sure that'll come up from time to time.

On modding:
Quote
[Quote from: Random_Dragon]
Suppose you have a mod that changes entities to behave in a specific way that is required for some other aspect of the mod to function. Moreover, suppose that the future myth generator would potentially completely break this entity by forcing it to use hardcoded generated critters, entity tokens and such.

Is there going to be any way for a raw mod to restrict how mythgen is handled, so that if you want to FORCE the game to use certain civs it'll do so, regardless of mythgen settings?

The reason I ask this is because if this option does not exist, the myth arc is almost guaranteed to break pretty much every civ-focused raw mod in existence, and counting on the user to advanced-worldgen more "vanilla" worlds is not an optimal solution.

Quote
To be clear, I'm sure the myth release is going to break a ton of mods initially whether I address this particular concern or not.  That is a given.  Saves will also not survive.

I'm not sure what specific tag scenario you are imagining here, so it's hard to say what's going to happen.  We've mentioned certain ways that a specific object (say, the dwarf) will be able to communicate restrictions up to the larger vanilla myth settings (by requesting, say, earth-related magics), without needing to change the settings themselves.  There are other possibilities depending on what you mean.  If somebody installs a mod, we could also provide ways for the mod to generally speak to or override params, since the installation of a mod is a buy-in at that point, though especially once we are messing around with editors and so forth, some in-DF handling of different mod folders/etc. on some kind of separated basis of the various kinds suggested over the years might need another look.  With some degree of that, total conversion style mods should be able to side step myth gen entirely (this is also implicit in the notion of editors, so some form of it is definitely going in with those.)  So, I wouldn't be concerned, but the first release will by bumpy (for a zillion reasons.)

Sorry if formatting is a bit off. Crushed like a sardine on a hot Tokyo commuter train right now. Fun. And tantrum inducing. Unacknowledged quotes are Toady's.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 04:14:50 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #512 on: June 28, 2018, 04:19:09 am »

What prototype modding features? I don't remember it being in the interview, was the prototype made available?
In the video (GDC 2016, maybe?)
Hm. Link to the video?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #513 on: June 28, 2018, 04:34:32 am »

What prototype modding features? I don't remember it being in the interview, was the prototype made available?
In the video (GDC 2016, maybe?)
Hm. Link to the video?
C'mon man. Harness that innate Google power....
https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI

(Assumed it was on the links page actually. Apparently not...)
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JesterHell696

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #514 on: June 28, 2018, 06:49:52 am »

-Snip-

Thank you for the quick and insight full reply, I only hope there is enough player control to not be force to accept a magic system we don't like.

I mean I'll likely play a couple with "maxed" magic just to see the chaos but given that I already make certain changes every time I play to suit my tastes it'd suck to be stuck with random magic systems.
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #515 on: June 28, 2018, 07:47:02 am »

If all else fails, remember that it will be RNG. You could reroll the world until you get something you like if the editor does not arrive on the first pass.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #516 on: June 28, 2018, 04:06:33 pm »

-Snip-

Thank you for the quick and insight full reply, I only hope there is enough player control to not be force to accept a magic system we don't like.

I mean I'll likely play a couple with "maxed" magic just to see the chaos but given that I already make certain changes every time I play to suit my tastes it'd suck to be stuck with random magic systems.
It's a procedurally generated fantasy world generator. It's entire existence is (will be) geared to ensuring each world is unique. Yeah, you'll be able to limit the creation process a certain way with raws probably, but if you want a world that's fixed in place, you're better off making one with the editor. Well, both will be an option, so it's win-win I guess.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #517 on: June 28, 2018, 08:05:13 pm »

If all else fails, remember that it will be RNG. You could reroll the world until you get something you like if the editor does not arrive on the first pass.

I already do, I only use advanced world gen, I gen "randomly" until I get a map I like then I abort edit setting and change it so it uses that worlds seed on repeat and then I re-gen until I get a world that has all races and at least one necro tower, I will often gen 10-20 world before actually keeping one.


It's a procedurally generated fantasy world generator. It's entire existence is (will be) geared to ensuring each world is unique. Yeah, you'll be able to limit the creation process a certain way with raws probably, but if you want a world that's fixed in place, you're better off making one with the editor. Well, both will be an option, so it's win-win I guess.

I only use advanced world gen which gives me as much control over the world as I need to create specific world maps/layout and editing the raws allows me control over most of the details of that world, for instance I remove 90% of animal people from the raws, add [max_age] to elves, goblins, dragons ect, remove the [no_eat] from goblins, change it so that it is goblins that eat sapient not elves ect and I do this every single time.

My worlds are not very "unique" at all and I prefer it that way, I love DF not for the random gen but because it takes a simulation based approach to the world and the players place in it, which is why I want as much of the myth/magic stuff to be in the raws as possible because I have the firm belief that if "magic" exists then its "just" another aspect of reality like thermodynamics and it would be used in industry and have fields of expertise based around it.

I don't need (though I wont say no to) a world editor so long as myths and magic are raw editable, like how you could set night creatures/curses to 0 in advanced gen but have them predefined in the raws so that you only ever get were-wolves and never were-tortoises, if magic is raw editable then I could just turn off "procedural" magic and enforce my own predefined magic, I just wish I could turn forgotten beasts off like I do titans.



All of this talking (and thinking) about magic has caused another question to arise for me.

Do you think dynamic combination of magic will be possible with magic, an example being mixing water and fire magic on the fly to create steam or fire and earth to create magma or would such combinations need to be predefined?

I'm guessing predefined but can't know for sure.
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

KittyTac

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #518 on: June 28, 2018, 08:53:46 pm »

Meh. I usually use basic worldgen. It's sufficient for my purposes.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #519 on: June 28, 2018, 10:12:28 pm »

Famous historical warriors stop using their weapons the moment they name (and decorate) them. Is this intended (It's now hanging on a wall never to be used), something unfinished for later expansion, or a bug? It's kind of odd having all these legendary single kill weapons around. Also worldwide artifact production from all races (except dwarves in player fortresses) stops after initial worldgen. I reported it as a bug, but is it?
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #520 on: June 29, 2018, 03:28:06 am »

For the first part of your question (about historical weapons, namely), i already asked about this several months ago.
The general answer is : they will be used in the future, it's planned, but not yet.
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Jimmius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #521 on: June 29, 2018, 09:03:46 am »

To focus on the very, very distant future for a second:

You've talked enthusiastically about Boats many times, mainly with regards to how difficult they would be (as they're essentially fortresses that move/rotate). They'll clearly come well after Myth/Magic, but they're also not even on the Development Page, which currently contains enough material to keep you busy for years, if not decades. Does this mean Boats are so far off as to be unlikely to be seen this side of 2050, or will you re-evaluate the direction of development after finishing up the (amazing sounding) Myth and Magic arc?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #522 on: June 29, 2018, 09:26:15 am »

To focus on the very, very distant future for a second:

You've talked enthusiastically about Boats many times, mainly with regards to how difficult they would be (as they're essentially fortresses that move/rotate). They'll clearly come well after Myth/Magic, but they're also not even on the Development Page, which currently contains enough material to keep you busy for years, if not decades. Does this mean Boats are so far off as to be unlikely to be seen this side of 2050, or will you re-evaluate the direction of development after finishing up the (amazing sounding) Myth and Magic arc?

Boats are up before Economy right now (since last mentioned in both PC Gamer interview and 10th anniversary video).

Current phase (another 3 months or so)
Mythgen (18-24 months + 6 months bug fixing)
More Mythgen (12 months + 6 months bug fixing and suggestions)
Starting Scenarios (law, politics, society) (18-24 months + 6 months bug fixing & suggestions). Probably multiple releases?.
Moving fortress parts (Boats)
Economy

Boats without an economy don't make sense but boats are fun. Besides existence of boats effects economy.

Times total guesses, of course.
So...8-10 years?

« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 09:31:49 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Jimmius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #523 on: June 29, 2018, 09:34:20 am »

So...8-10 years?

I'm amazed that that's actually closer than I would've guessed! :P
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #524 on: June 29, 2018, 09:45:29 am »

So...8-10 years?

I'm amazed that that's actually closer than I would've guessed! :P
There was a video someplace recently where I think he said 5-6 years to starting on Scenarios.
Of course, things change. Strange moods, multiple decade obsession with getting Mythgen perfect, personal stuff.
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