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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2986965 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5265 on: February 15, 2023, 05:55:48 pm »

Yeas, please focus on actual serious problems that players can't fix themselves with a single line change, thanks!
I mean "pools now spawn pool creatures" vs "game doesn't die when I create a new squad". i know which one I'd spend time on.

(Most Dwarves are not supposed to be able to wield big weapons. Does this actually fix the bug that big, player controlled dwarves won't pick up a big weapon. Or is it just a band-aid that allows any dwarves to pick up two-handed weapons in a fan-dream way that the game was never supposed to allow - thought so).
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Schmaven

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5266 on: February 15, 2023, 07:27:00 pm »

From what I've seen, the 1-hand / 2-hand situation is that dwarves vary in size, so much so that the bigger dwarves should be able to wield certain weapons, either 1-H or 2-H, but are unable to because the average dwarf size is used rather than their actual size.

But I agree, crashes and major bugs should take priority.  And there are likely enough little 1 line changes to make, that it would be much more of a substantial detour to tackle once you add it all up.  I assume those simple fixes just get taken care of when those areas of the code are being worked on for more major reasons.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5267 on: February 15, 2023, 07:53:51 pm »

Sounds like something for Putnam when she has some free time…
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dikbutdagrate

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5268 on: February 16, 2023, 07:11:18 pm »

Is it intentional that historical artifacts produced during world-gen do not simulate macabre moods? If this is intentional, what are the reasons for wanting to avoid historical artifacts made from vermin remains?

World-gen simulates fey and fell just fine, although you will occasionally get a chains made out of sand, which I don't think are possible items in actual fort-mode. Certainly, any number of historical artifacts can be evidently made out of dwarf/elf/goblin bones, you will not see any historical artifacts made out of "vermin remains", as the only mood which has any probability of producing an artifact whose base reagent is a vermin remains is the macabre mood. Hence, we assume that the macabre mood is not being simulated during world-gen, which is something of a curiosity.


Since it's possible for worldgen moods to fail: could it be that artifact materials are sourced from what resources a civ has access to, and since vermin remains aren't an option, macabre moods always fail? That, or they could be omitted for that reason. Either makes equal amounts of sense to me.

It seems pretty hard to imagine the dwarves wouldn't have access to vermin, due to being able to produce animal traps. I'm not sure thats whats happening.

Also, you definitely start to wonder how the entire tracking systems works, when you notice that a dwarf somehow managed to produce a toy axe entirely out of siliceous ooze during world generation. (Its soil thats found at the bottom of the ocean.)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 07:13:45 pm by dikbutdagrate »
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dikbutdagrate

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5269 on: February 16, 2023, 07:22:59 pm »

I have noticed that there are a whole lot of mods whose only purpose is to edit one or a few lines in the raws to fix a minor bug, like pools not spawning creatures that can only spawn in pools, dwarves not being able to wield big weapons, etc. Wouldn't it be wise to make a list of these small bugs and squish them all at once? If some randos on the Internet can do it, then surely the game's developer(s) can too, right?

Please be aware that your question is not even a suggestion, its just rude.

If you are new and/or lost, I can sympathize, and I will gladly redirect you to an appropriate thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173049.0

In the future, please be more mindful as to whether your question is being communicated effectively.
I have typed the following, in order to give you an example of what might have been a better way of going about asking your question:

"Are there any plans to allocate potential development time, in the semi-to-near-future, toward addressing some of the longstanding minor bugs concerning the game's default creature raws?

While many of these issues do appear to be very minor in scope, and have already been addressed in a variety of player hosted mods, an official release would really help in lowering the cognitive over-head required from newer players, such as myself, to fix these things whenever we encounter them. It really stinks when we look forward to seeing a specific creature spawning, and it just doesn't!"


Edit: See? Theres nothing wrong with getting Tarn right in the feels man, you just have to be more mindful in how you do it.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 09:50:58 pm by dikbutdagrate »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5270 on: February 16, 2023, 07:44:21 pm »

Not gonna lie, as a modder the sheer number of bugs that have gone untouched absolutely does get frustrating sometimes, especially if it's stuff that hinders stuff you're dependent for your content, so I can sympathize. And I'm still said that adventure mode had to get yeeted for the steam release, while it's expected that it'll get re-added eventually, it doesn't stop the anxiety one has that it might not be.

As someone who's contributed to other projects in the past, my experience with Cataclysm has given me a pretty much instinctive "if the implementation isn't feature-complete without something that's promised as something to be added later, plan for the worst-case scenario that it's staying half-implemented for the foreseeable future" mentality. One's experience with open-source projects doesn't really translate neatly into what assumptions are accurate, but the anxiety is still hard to shake (plus multiple features I've personally liked, like curious structures and being able to craft with sentient body matrerials in adventure mode, have all gone the way of Giant Desert Scorpions so precedent already exists).

Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum? The subforum summaries indicate that a couple other users have been appointed as moderators in the past, but far as I can tell from checking their profiles and posts it looks like they haven't been active in years (Kurtulmak was last active over a decade ago, and Jonathan S. Fox not since last year, and both of those have subforum-specific moderator privileges it seems rather than general moderator authority).

Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5271 on: February 17, 2023, 01:09:38 am »

Have you considered hiring a webmaster?
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dikbutdagrate

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5272 on: February 17, 2023, 02:32:02 am »

Hello! Before I'll ask my questions, I've wanted to congratulate you on the release, I've been playing DF since 2013-ish and I'm so happy that the launch of the game went so well. Thank you a hundredfold for all the hard work that you've put into the project over the years :)

I've got a mishmash of different questions:

1. Will relationships/marriages between different races ever be added into the game (i.e. human-elf, dwarf-elf, elf-dwarf, human-dwarf)?
1b. If yes, in-line with common fantasy tropes, would you consider ever adding half-elves, half-dwarves etc. as offspring of such marriages?
1b: Yes. This is part of the centaur problem, i.e. finding out how to create hybrid of different races species. The easier version is to come up with a way to create offspring based on creatures with the same body plan (such as e.g. human/dwarf/elf/goblin/kobold) and same general properties (human/dwarf, but elf falls that part on immortality, goblin on immortality+no-eat, kobold on egg laying, with animal people obviously falling on their animal parts), and onto biologically "impossible" mashes such as centaurs, cerberii, etc. that might still be possible magically.
These problems are hard, but probably not perceived as impossible, and so are intended to be tacked eventually (which is well within the "ever" time frame). The result will probably not be as "primitive" as half-elves, but rather some kind of simulation of genetics that allows for offspring to inherit varying traits from their parents (such as a stocky daughter with a rounded skull and but prominent brow ridges and a slim son with an elongated skull and limited brow ridges from from the same neanderthal and sapiens parents), and, as a result of that, offspring that may inherit traits from a more varied ancestry (human/dwarf/elf/kobold with differing proportions of each, for instance, where the "proportions" would really be in the form of "genes").

This question comes up pretty often, and so could probably be answered by just linking back to earlier explanations, but I really like the way you've described the issue in comprehensive detail here.

I'm not sure Toady is ever going to have time for that kind of rewrite. Considering Myth and Magics not even out yet.

But you know, maybe, just maybe, somewhere far off in the distant year of 199X, in the retro-post 80's imagined future VHS hellscape/apocalyptic wasteland™, entity civs will spawn featuring post unique post world-gen determined creatures, such as: ½ lobster-men, ¼ goblin, ⅛ dwarf, ⅛ kobolds, who will live in little town houses that are all shaped and aligned in such a way, so to represent the different phases of the moon, for moon reasons, leaving one neighbor very much without a roof. And maybe this civ of "jeff-men" have fantastic, unique, and effective ways of fighting the goblins with weapons made entirely out of wax and bumblebee fuzz. But then you have to ask yourself, if I could play as jeff-men, why would I ever play as dwarves? The answer is, you wouldn't. You'd just play as jeff-men. Consequently, the game would no longer really be about dwarves anymore. It would just be a procedurally generated nightmare zoo. Do you really want to live in the year 199X? Is this the world you want to live in? A world ruled entirely by jeffs?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 02:57:03 am by dikbutdagrate »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5273 on: February 17, 2023, 02:50:18 am »

Necromancer experiments are currently created during worldgen, so "inserted during play". They're even 100% playable as adventurers. Only needs the additional step of it occasionally happening during Fortress/Adventurer which surely isn't a great technical leap from that.

And Toady introduced the concept of worlds without dwarves (all-human worlds and all-proc gen critter worlds) when he presented Mythgen several years ago. It's where the game is going.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 02:54:13 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Immortal-D

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5274 on: February 20, 2023, 06:03:03 pm »

- Have you treated yourself with the new income?  Like a really high end gaming/office chair or some artwork?
- Is a non-mouse interface for Classic theoretically possible with all of the UI changes (regardless of plans for it)?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2023, 04:54:52 pm by Immortal-D »
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jecowa

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5275 on: February 21, 2023, 01:48:10 am »

Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum?

Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.


Issues in the politics section of a gaming forum doesn’t sound great. Maybe the world would be better off with one fewer forum for gamers’ views on politics. A lot of those boards in the “finally” section – I don’t really know why they’re there except maybe just to keep that stuff out of the rest of the forum.

Also, are you volunteering to be the new moderator?
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Eschar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5276 on: February 21, 2023, 03:07:57 am »

Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum?

Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.


A lot of those boards in the “finally” section – I don’t really know why they’re there except maybe just to keep that stuff out of the rest of the forum.

Hey, FGAR is a more popular board than the Dwarf Fortress ones! Ok I know that probably wasn't the board you meant. Life Advice board attracts weirdos sometimes, also.

...though as far as I can tell, the politicking in lower boards doesn't really result in all that many moderation incidents, and I can't recall any huge ones recently. Check the mod log - there haven't been a lot of bannable incidents in bay12 history, relative to the length of that history.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 03:10:10 am by Eschar »
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5277 on: February 21, 2023, 05:38:09 am »

Related though, have you considered appointing at least one dedicated moderator to this forum?

Given the repeated incidents we've had in some of the politics-related subforums in the general section, I've been hit with the realization that having to split your attention between game development and community moderation is probably not ideal for anyone.


A lot of those boards in the “finally” section – I don’t really know why they’re there except maybe just to keep that stuff out of the rest of the forum.

Hey, FGAR is a more popular board than the Dwarf Fortress ones! Ok I know that probably wasn't the board you meant. Life Advice board attracts weirdos sometimes, also.

...though as far as I can tell, the politicking in lower boards doesn't really result in all that many moderation incidents, and I can't recall any huge ones recently. Check the mod log - there haven't been a lot of bannable incidents in bay12 history, relative to the length of that history.

It's arguably more of an issue that it takes a long while for new members to get registered. Sure, there are forums for most kinds of discussion found here, and some amount of community splintering is expected either way for a game this large. As far as I know though, the suggestions board is the only of its kind, which Toady and Threetoe actually keep track of. It sucks to see good suggestions on the subreddit and discord, and have to tell them to go to a forum as closed as this one.

Admittedly, letting more people in should be a compound issue with typical moderation; more of it would be needed if the Steam crowd flooded in.

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5278 on: February 21, 2023, 04:14:05 pm »

Admittedly, letting more people in should be a compound issue with typical moderation; more of it would be needed if the Steam crowd flooded in.

I suspect they already have. Likely the only thing holding back the floodgates is T-doggo's own approval for each of the forum applications.

Back when I applied to the forums, which was just a couple years ago I think, I recall it took over a week for my application to get its manual approval from sir T-doggo. So that was wait time before the steam release, but after steam release? I have no idea how long the average wait time is to get in. But I would hazard a guess that'll take at least several more months for the entire steam crowd to finally finish trickling in.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 11:58:50 pm by dikbutdagrate »
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5279 on: February 23, 2023, 03:39:18 am »

Maybe there are enough "Great Ancients" here to assume some sort of moderation or manual validation ?
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