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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 173220 times)

therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1140 on: October 31, 2018, 10:56:58 am »

This might be the silliest thing but...

Have you considered updating Mantis (the bugtracker software) to the latest version?

I ask because bugtracker software also has bugfixes, and DF's Mantis instance hasn't update in 8 years. And it is rather hard to browse bugs right now because the filters change randomly when going back a page. I wasn't too sure whether to put this in the suggestions forum, because it's such an administrative thing...
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1141 on: October 31, 2018, 12:50:59 pm »

About magic, religion and word functioning:
Do you plan to add option for reincarnation in belief system or world functioning? If so, would you think about reusing the soul structure, or rather just make it a basis for a new one (which maybe would be more similar to real-world religions).

What about spells resurrecting people (not zombies)?


About the general stuff:
Dwarf Fortress seem to be influenced in many parts by works of JRR Tolkien, either directly or indirectly (like through fantasy games, DnD etc.). When designing current dwarves (mainly their behaviour, character and mental abilities), were you influenced by The Hobbit, where the dwarves are basically whining machines, or the similarity is coincidental? Because if it is intentional, then I must say it's spot on (a compliment). If not maybe you had that vision in the back of your mind?
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Urist McSadist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1142 on: October 31, 2018, 03:09:12 pm »

How exactly are more complicated reactions going to be used during world gen?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1143 on: October 31, 2018, 03:44:38 pm »

How exactly are more complicated reactions going to be used during world gen?
When? Next release? Post-Big Wait? The far future.
Probably need a little more context for that...
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Loci

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1144 on: October 31, 2018, 03:51:02 pm »

And it is rather hard to browse bugs right now because the filters change randomly when going back a page.

The bugtracker has a shared guest account--the filters change because some other guest user modified them. If you are logged in, your filters will only change when you change them. (Being per-user, they still make running two concurrent searches impossible, though.)

From a quick test of Mantis's own tracker, the behavior appears to have changed such that filters are set per-instance, so updating the tracker software would resolve this particular problem. I'm not a big fan of some of the design changes (the "Timeline" looks like the kind of thing management would use to satisfy themselves that 'work is happening', and the nearly-entirely-white backgrounds are eye-strain inducing), though I don't know if those things are customizable.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1145 on: October 31, 2018, 05:28:00 pm »

And it is rather hard to browse bugs right now because the filters change randomly when going back a page.

The bugtracker has a shared guest account--the filters change because some other guest user modified them. If you are logged in, your filters will only change when you change them. (Being per-user, they still make running two concurrent searches impossible, though.)

From a quick test of Mantis's own tracker, the behavior appears to have changed such that filters are set per-instance, so updating the tracker software would resolve this particular problem. I'm not a big fan of some of the design changes (the "Timeline" looks like the kind of thing management would use to satisfy themselves that 'work is happening', and the nearly-entirely-white backgrounds are eye-strain inducing), though I don't know if those things are customizable.
Oh lord, that explain so much! Thanks!

I'll leave it to your discretion whether you want to update. An 8 year difference is nothing to sneeze at, from both the good and bad sides, and even if the guest search is confusing, the rest does seem to work.

EDIT: For what it is worth the df bugtracker has the same white backgrounds as the demo instance, so maybe you toggled a config option somewhere and forgot about it.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 05:34:59 pm by therahedwig »
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1146 on: November 01, 2018, 02:44:28 pm »

Quote from: Asin
Will we ever get another glimpse at the myth generator? I'm pretty sure more than a few players would like to mess around with it and see what happens.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864509#msg7864509
Dozeb˘m Lolumzalýs: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864515#msg7864515
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864525#msg7864525
Urlance Woolsbane: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7864626#msg7864626

In particular, DG's snippit of my last FotF covers the basic question, and Urlance Woolsbane's comment on the dev log covers the rest -- we'll be dev logging extensively during the big wait, and this will include myth stuff, but the stand- alone generator isn't going to be released (although stand-alone generation is something that'll be possible within the game, as with the current worldgen.)

Quote from: PatrikLundell
Thanks for the answers, Toady. However, an immediate follow up:
The  +/-max (10,age/2) check for marriage would mean +max (10, age/2) to -max (10, age/3) in practice if both parties are required to pass the check. However, I can see trouble brewing if the older party tries to pursue an eligible younger one who doesn't find the older one eligible. Currently it probably doesn't matter, but if they are eventually going to act on their desires this can cause them to embark on impossible quests, in particular if the younger one doesn't reject (nor accept, naturally) an advance from someone who's already dismissed for age reasons (although, with time, they will both come within the age range, unless death happens first).

I answered this one early at: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7865728#msg7865728

Quote from: MetroChensual
Will very powerful (as in endgame) adventurers be able to do the stuff a villain can do? Can they be the villains when the player no longer controls them?
Adding to that question, can a retired adventurer change occupations?

The plan is that even a starting adventurer with one loyal buddy can (try to) do the stuff a villain can do.  Plots will carry on as applicable when a piece of them is removed.

I'm pretty sure retired adventurers are pretty much like other people when it comes to occupations, but post world-gen, there isn't as much occupation changing at this point.

Quote from: ZM5
Regarding adventure mode pets, will the players be able to acquire one even if they don't start with one? Say, either via taming a wild animal in some way, or via buying them in some kind of new "pet store" that'd show up in sites.

I don't currently have new stores or anything.  We're of course pro-new-pets, but we probably won't get to it.

Quote from: Whatsifsowhatsit
Dwarves in various tropes/myths are actually taken to be naturally resistant to many forms of magic. (Just some examples: Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim, D&D.) Will this be the case for the 'default' dwarven race (I get this notion might become more fluid, but putting that aside for the moment) from the myth release onward, relative to other races?

It's really too early to say exactly what we'll need.  When they aren't magic-users themselves, it has been a standard way of giving them a competitive advantage and an additional way to distinguish them from humans, yeah, though I'm not sure we'll go the same way.  Generally, there are a lot of mostly-not-conflicting dwarven tropes to reckon with once magic comes into play (runes, geomancy, resistance, "good priests", etc. etc.), and we'll have to decide whether we're going to try to put any sort of authorial edge on it, or if we embrace the normal ways.  We've kind of been doing both up to this point, and could very well continue to do so.  Our elves and goblins are slightly more weird/specific, really, and we'll see how that plays out.

Quote from: Immortal-D
When was the last time you took vacation?  Are you planning an extended holiday before starting on Myth & Magic (The Big Wait)?  Just want to make sure you properly decompress every once in a while.

It depends on how you count certain things I guess.  The speaking trips I go on don't exactly feel like vacations, since there's an element of work involved, but they aren't all bad either.  I don't recall my last proper vacation.  The last few Augusts have certainly been candidate months for them, as people have mentioned in here.

Quote from: Wigglepuff
Will the deities made in world gen ever demand an amount of worship, and if that amount is not met, will they send catastrophic events to the fortress?

It's certainly a reasonable enough model, and we'll have to see what we get to, especially as it regards fortress-wide or region-level disasters.  We've promised that there will be disasters of that scope, so if somebody releases the Kraken on you, well, maybe you shouldn't have provoked your own destruction.  (with all previous comments against annoying unavoidable disasters standing of course)

Quote from: George_Chickens
I have a question about general development, if that's appropriate. Once a feature fails to meet a deadline, is it permanently abandoned, or simply put on the backburner? What is the plan to deal with features that could not be implemented due to deadlines?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7867401#msg7867401

^ That pretty much covers it.  The backburner is quite large, as is the...  the future burner or wherever future stuff that has never been worked on goes.  We've revisited plenty of features, and hope to return to everything, but it is true that sometimes stuff gets dropped and then isn't looked at again for a decade or more (see: formations, economy, tavern games, etc.)  There isn't a particular schedule for most features, since there are a lot of factors and we must remain flexible to continue.

Quote from: Real_bang
In your presentation you said that we can send our companions to do mischief and that its similar to raid menu in fort mode. Will we be able to specify mischief (like send some guys on a raid/raze/stealing artifact mission) and how will they find the adventurer when they finished with their mission? Like if i send someone to form links i think that he should come back and tell about links that have been formed/mischiefs that he had done. So how will he find me in a big world map?

DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7867912#msg7867912

Yeah, I'm leaning toward the rendevous option, especially since we already have (basic) adventurer sites.  If there's an additional option that doesn't involve adventurer sites, like "meet me at (pre-existing) tavern X in two weeks", all the better.  The mischief options will align with whatever options the post worldgen villains have for their mission orders; my expectation is that this will include general and specific options, but we'll have to see exactly what happens when the simulation gets a say.

Quote from: ShinQuickMan
From your perspective, would it fall under the purview of goblin civilization (or, more specifically, any civ with the babysnatcher tag) to snatch babies from uncivilized peoples, or should they only take interest in civilized sites as is currently? Would be quite FUN to discover that the local Dark Fortress has salt water crocodile men, harpies, and heck, a small population of giants in their ranks.

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7868462#msg7868462

Quote from: Real_bang
All questions here about the next update (or updates before the big wait).
1. When playing necromancer or vampire in adventure mode will we be able to promise our companions/random people secrets of life and death/eternal life to get them as our minions (if their goals are the same/similar with the promise)
1.1 Will we be able to turn our whole adventure party into vampires/necros with their agreement?
2. Will loyal adventurers that were with you through some fights with beasts/gobbos/etc. attack you if they find out that you are a vampire/necro?
3. Will we be able to do mischief in fort mode? Make agents, send them to elven forest and make them start a war with humans/do something else
4. You were talking about villains that have a goal but will there be villains without one? Villains whospread chaos/agony/pain? Force of nature Villains as they called. That category might fit demons or beasts

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7868911#msg7868911

1/1.1. Kind of depends on the related w.g. villains, though it does require the additional mechanism of being able to carry through.  So it would take a specific push.  Dunno what'll happen.

2. They aren't reliable when it comes to this, and I think I'd need to teach them to remember what they've seen a little harder, if you aren't transformed in front of them.  Even then, I'm not sure it currently wins out over party loyalty.

3. Seems likely.  Once adventurers can do it, it would be an easy add, anyway, and we were already planning on doing off-site investigations at the very least.

4. The obsessed network building is a starter toward this, and there'll likely be some undirected chaos bringing based on personality stuff, and supernatural creatures like demons generally have extreme personalities.  Would be premature I think to do more with supernatural motivations.

Quote from: DudeeDew
My questions are mostly related to adventure mode.
1. Will NPCs use dual-wielding? Will dwarves in the fortress use two weapons at once and simultaneous dual-wielding attacks?
2. How good will the disguise system be made? Will it be possible to use magic and special tools to disguise oneself? Like fake beards, made-up scars, for instance, or even a comlpete full-body illusion that makes a human appear and talk as an elf.
3. Will it be possible to effectively impersonate someone to gain some benefit of their position? Like giving some bad orders to the army of your enemy civ and stuff.
4. Will the language ability get some use in the game? So that people will talk among themselves in their native lang and using "common" to talk to others (if they know it), and the player character won't understand anything unless he knows the specific language.
4.1. Also, in case this is implemented, will different civs of the same race have slightly (or strongly) different languages?
5. Haven't really encountered it so far, so I'll ask: will different civs of the same race wage war against each other?
6. Will we have explosives (magical or normal) to use as a mining and/or military tool? Will invaders use tham to destroy dwarven fortifications?

1. They just need to be given a second weapon sometimes, and taught what to do.  Just haven't gotten to it.

2. I have no idea what we'll be able to do here in the end.  The recent identity rewrite put us in a better position, since there's a visual component to knowledge of other critters now.  It needs work, though, to get to the systems you describe.

3. We aren't there yet, but the changes we've made would effectively support that if you could get somebody to think you were somebody else, and there were any person-driven orders of the kind you described.  The latter is possibly coming up, as it relates to positions and schemes.

4. We're hoping to do a lot with language at some point, but it's always ended up being a lower priority compared to other features.  The notes are pretty extensive at this point, but that's meaningless if we don't work on it.

5. There are ethics checks that make them like each other, usually, though humans have random ethics/values so they should dislike each other on occasion.  Religious differences can also do it.  Of course, bugs are also possible.

6. Magic that blows stuff up seems popular enough.  Other stuff that blows stuff up is an intermittent topic, and we're more or less ambivalent on it; we don't usually go for guns/etc. in our fantasy settings, but as we go, that sort of thing might end up more supported by modding/etc., especially as certain magic items start to look a bit like their technological counterparts at times.  If vanilla ended up with a basic black powder option, I wouldn't be shocked either, as it's well within the tech cutoff (1400), and it's easy to add world gen parameter switches to suit tastes.

Quote from: Real_bang
More thinking about next update brings me more questions. In one of your interviews you said that adventurer can actually talk the demon lord out to change his values to love life and he wont go to wars anymore. Will we be able to talk the villains out (just regular rulers, dont think that itll work on vamps or necros) so they will understand that they went on the wrong path and war is actually bad (not if its a war with elfs though) so they will stop scheming and begin normal righteous life. Asking about the next update or updates before the big wait ofc

Also what major bugs are you going to fix before the big wait?

Nothing planned here, aside from what comes out of villainy -- changing courses of action is part of that, so we might actually make some progress.  Nothing revolutionary.

Bugs: certainly the stress/broken social stuff still needs some work.  Otherwise I'm just going to set aside some time for it, mainly working with the bug tracker; keeping my own lists of priority bugs before fix time is usually pointless, though I have several (they tend to become outdated.)  Clearly the end-of-year estimate is going to give way to whatever's been going on with pre-villain stuff, so we're going to go on a bit into 2019 before the big wait begins.  Exactly how far is unclear, and certainly won't be until the villains are ready.

Quote from: Magistrum
Because I think our thousands of individual threads for accounting would be way easier with how many meters of thread or how many square meters of cloth. Litres of water would make me feel more comfortable than three waters.

Do you plan on adding measurement units for values? Metric? Would civs have their own measurements?

Though learning that every new gen might end up being just a drag for players...

Yeah, we were late here, and now it's a mess.  I'm not sure how we're going to address it.  Internally, we've been slowly moving over to e.g. cubic centimeters for a unit of volume, but we need to have the internal conversions done before we can think about civ-based ones.  Would be cool, naturally, and I wouldn't mind having, say, an optional toggle between metric and in-universe measures, if we get there.

Quote from: falcc
I made it through a vault and now I have a cute new friend made of filth and grime. What will "befriending" such a creature mean for its role as a villain? Will it still generate schemes for its home civ? Can it be made to very easily influence the civ it is/was running? Will people notice its run off with that supposed monster hunter from Far Away Civ and elevate a new ruler? Could it be switched to using the swapping between adventures interface upon it joining your party (since it is a pretty big investment to get)? If it's sent off screen can it do its own schemes? And please oh please can it try to have its controller assassinated?

I feel like once there's more sense of antagonism possible my friend wouldn't be so friendly in the arrangement we have now. I wouldn't in that position. It certainly seems to want to fight about the nuance of every value, so maybe it'll never really trust me enough to control it directly even if it's compelled to tag along to the extent it is now.

Also, I've gotta say, vaults are a pretty fun dungeon after all my time lost in sewers. Those levers have me so excited for the future.

As long as you are dragging it around, it won't be able to do anything.  If you leave it on its own by command, it'll likely still sit there.  The only hope would be to give it a general networking order, most likely, and then whatever skills it has in this area would come into play.  I'm pretty sure people won't notice it is under your control unless I specifically code that in, since the name-command system isn't entity/civ driven.  I suppose it should be controllable in party mode, though there are certain...  questions there that are unresolved, and won't be until we understand magic better, at which point it becomes a more clear-cut design issue concerning loyalty/harm-to-self/etc.  Hopefully it will hate you, heh.  Whether that means it will try to have you killed is up to post w.g. mechanics; if you let it get off the leash, it could very well plot to have you killed, just on the general revenge principle, but it would have to have a network first, which the player might be foolish enough to give it if it proves good at that task.  So, hmm, oddly optimistic here.

Of course that gets to the odd genie-wish-type situations of exactly what sort of preventative orders you can give it and how far that ability goes with the name-command power.  It isn't likely I'd add anything specific there right now, so let it scheme at your own peril.

Quote from: quekwoambojish
Will Bogeymen be used in Villain plots?
Or will they be removed fixed in myth and magic release?

KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7870291#msg7870291
quekwoambojish: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7870382#msg7870382

Bogeyman are always sitting on some list or another to get them properly changed or made more interesting or less common or whatever.  This is true now, pre-Wait.  We'll see what happens, I guess!  No plans to use them in villain plots.

Quote from: kontako
To what extent do you expect to use hyperlinks within / after the development of the coming long-wait update? If my memory serves well, I recall the use of hyperlinks in the myth demo.

I ask with specific reference towards their use between the mentions of Hist. figs., Civilisations, Organisations, Events, etc and a page which defines them.

Or is their inclusion deferred to a particular future update?

I'd like to add them as part of that update, yeah.  Putting them in the myth demo was sort of a reminder to myself to get with the 90s already.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Merchants and companies and stuff. Interesting.

Does this mean the merchants who visit your fortress will now be actual exisitng merchants who've travelled across the map from someplace to get to you? Or are they still the magically generated kind?

The hope and current to-do item is that the human merchants will indeed be taken from the trading company pool if they are available.  It's probably early to have them actually move on the map though, since we still don't have an economy, though perhaps they can "fake trade" or something (haven't gotten to post w.g. yet.)  We won't have the luxury with, say, elves, and the dwarves are still linked to your home civ in too strong a way.  So, small steps, but it's something.

Quote from: Real_bang
All questions as usual about the next update. Will we be able to send messenger to trade outposts to request a caravan? If yes will we be able to pick what we need for extra money like with mountainhome? Will we be able send a squad to rob them for good loot. With the addition of merchants will we finally see caravans in adventure mode?

GoblinCookie: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7873163#msg7873163

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Do travelling merchants accompany trade caravans in scheduled visits or do they arrive individually?

I expect they'll replace the scheduled visits, though in some previous notes we did have more of a random, year-round feel to the depot, to be linked with fairs and other matters.  The simple option is the scheduled one.  If we somehow luck out and the post worldgen movement goes really smoothly, we might have more.

Quote from: Real_bang
You said that there will be villain plots based on revenge. So my question is will there be a hatred for the whole race? Like young elven slave hating on all the humans for killing his relatives so his villain plot would just be "kill as much humans as i can" or something else that would do damage to the whole human race?

Not doing anything with prejudice and bigotry at this point.  We've talked about this more generally in here and elsewhere previously, and the road ahead is unclear, though additional related frameworks will be coming in with the status/customs stuff.

Quote from: Slozgo Luzma
Before the big wait, do you have any plans to expand the representation of structures and sites on the world map? For instance, goblins have taverns but the player can't visit them in adventure mode, while dying civilizations that make take their last stand in outdoor tombs that belong to them cannot be visited by the player.

While all these trade changes are being made, might we see player-controlled caravans in fort or adventure mode before the big wait? Or is that definitely something you are leaving until the economy arc?

Nothing in the near-term scheduled like a general site expansion, no.  And certainly nothing with the economy; the required frameworks just aren't there.  Along those lines, we really need to code up sites better for things like goblin taverns to be feasible, and that's a larger project than I can bite off now.

Quote from: Atomisk
The new stress system is complex and I realized my dwarves could use a vacation.

Were there ever any plans to give dwarves a designation to prioritize relaxation? and only work to satisfy orders/craftmoods slowly?

or is it good enough just to allow them to make work a priority and if they're not given a job, they simply socialize? (Or burrow them, i guess.) I was thinking it's hard to get certain groups of my fort to socialize because they rush to complete work orders. I think there should be a way to ORDER them to go have a chat or a drink! A schedualing system for non-military dwarves to work or play (Months to auto-assign burrows to citizens..)?

With all the activity, missions, and other things going on, Will dwarves ever be allowed to wander the surrounding wilds? Occupation: adventurer?

It could present both happy 'unsupervised free time' thoughts, and they can go collect, hunt, explore, or do whatever they want offsite.. And maybe they bring back an exotic kill, or plant, or some random junk that might not have already been on the map!

Supposedly they do give themselves vacations when their needs get high enough (with the exclamation point.)  That doesn't address general stress level, though.  We'll see how that plays out when I address social stuff more generally, before I start the magic stuff.  It might be that robustly addressing e.g. the friendship issue will be mostly enough to keep the stress levels under control in a properly managed fort.  But yeah, something like the old "on break" might be vaguely required...  hopefully it doesn't come to that, since it is annoying for its own reasons.

There are already dwarven adventurers that pass through your taverns, so I guess the issue is more, will they ever make a base at your fort, but then go outward instead of downward (unlike the current resident-petitioners.)  And will they ever come from your normal migrants deciding to take up a new hobby.  It's certainly a reasonable thing that would be consistent with their role in worldgen.

Quote from: KingEdwarf3890
Hey, I get that deities in general won't be worked on until the Magic Update, but at some point before that could you at least fix it so that Adventurers from an Elven civ have a way to satisfy the need to pray? Cause right now praying doesn't work for Elven adventurers even though they have religion. It's cause of the different worship system I think.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7874893#msg7874893

There's not much to add; if it's on the tracker, I might get to it, or it might be blown up by the myth stuff.  Agree it's annoying.

Quote from: Beag
1. With merchant caravans being more present in the next update would a new possible adventurer quest to be included before the big wait be guarding the caravan as it moves from one site to another?
2. Will the addition of trade caravans mean local site shops finally having a way to resupply their stock while adventure mode is running?
3. Will certain villians make use of were beasts as minnions in their scemes? Spreading the curse is a great way to sow chaos.
4. With the addition of more personal NPC relationships for purposes of intrigue will our own adventurer's personal relationships with NPCs be shown more clearly?

1. It's quite possible there won't be moving caravans at all.  It's still too early for that.
2. We're not doing any economy stuff.
3. It's a reasonable idea, assuming they can pick them out.  I don't know that we'll get to anything like that this time.
4. This seems quite possible.  There are a few new variables in relationships which are all very important and that you'll want to get at somehow.  Whether you deserve to know is a different question.  Generally, we'd rather not show you how loyal somebody is or how much they trust you, but there's also a point where it has to give to make the game playable.  Going to have to go by feel once we have you scheming and investigating.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1147 on: November 01, 2018, 02:44:43 pm »

Quote from: a52
Will the event knowledge system be reworked any time soon? There are a lot of cases where, say, a location is mentioned to an adventurer, and it doesn't transfer to the adventurer's talk menu, the adventurer's log/status screen, and/or the legends screen (with legends not revealed by default).

iceball3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7874889#msg7874889
a52: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7875441#msg7875441

There's no upcoming systemic rewrite, no, so the information would be useful.

Quote from: squamous
Will we see an overhaul of military invasions before the big wait? Right now they invasion mechanics are more than a little wonky, with armies arriving in small groups over a period of weeks before finally gathering and launching a weird and anticlimactic attack on the site that the player can't really do much about. That's my experience with it anyway. Will this change at all in the future? And also, will the previously mentioned adventure mode military improvements (adventurers leading armies for example) be implemented either?

The army rewrites up on dev cover most of that, yeah, including cleaning up the general feel of it; there's just the question of whether we actually get to all the dev candidates, which is the overarching question hanging over the entire pre-magic cycle here.  It depends on the timing, as usual.  As the villain release gets larger and farther out, the army stuff becomes less likely.  I'd like to do it all, but we'll really have to see.  We're not going to make any decisions until after the villain release, as we're handling the stress/social stuff and other bugs.  It'll either be time to finish up the dev candidates, or time to embark on the myth/magic stuff.

Quote
Quote from: Real_bang
I have some questions about new devlog (as usual at this point, sorry if im overflowing you with questions).
Will trading companies be able to open a branch warehouse in our fortress? If so will multiple companies be able to do it? Will this be the same with religion? What would be our benefit from letting them open a warehouse in our fortress? Will they build it themselves or we will have to construct it for them?

Also this one is kinda offtopic and i think its been answered here before but can Toady put screenshots in devlogs? Or site's engine wont allow it? It would be fun to look at forgotten beast warehouse administrator picture. Or at any picture related to the new things being made (especially when it comes to the big wait)
Quote from: Nopenope
Will there be trading outposts in player fortresses? Will the player be able to send their own trading outposts?
Quote from: Nopenope
Can I request that you post more screenshots of the game in your devlogs? I know sometimes you do, but I really do think it would be very helpful (and hype raising) to post more of them whenever you have an interesting feature to preview, like what you did with the myth generator.

Regarding trade outposts, ha ha, we are right on the edge of that sort of thing, suddenly!  I'm not sure we'll go farther than the likely human merchant caravans being replaced by the worldgen/post w.g. historical traders, just because it's additional work on a release that has grown and needs to not grow much more.  No idea on how it would work specifically if we do attempt it.

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876421#msg7876421
Doorkeeper: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876467#msg7876467
golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7878256#msg7878256

More or less agree with golemgunk here, that it's harder to take meaningful images of legends-mode type stuff -- I'll sometimes spend time reconstructing a tale from a world's legends instead, as you've read.  Back when we were doing village maps, etc., it was way easier to think of screenshots to do, then I pretty much fell off there.  I will try to think of it, but not sure I'll improve much there for this time.  Certainly the myth/magic stuff will have more, when stuff starts getting interesting out in the world.  But I'm not sure villainous plots generally will really have a lot of opportunities for a screenshot that adds anything.

Quote from: Rockphed
When you talk about silly additions, what do you mean?   My experience with previous additions is that the silly stuff is normally caused by weird interactions between recently fleshed out systems and systems that are still placeholders.

As Dwarf Fortress gets more complex, how do you check for bugs?  It seems too complex to exhaustively search the event space, but just turning it on and seeing what pops out seems likely to miss things.  Maybe I should specifically ask how you came to check what happened to the trade warehouse when the fortress got hit by a forgotten beast?

This is correct on the phrase 'silly additions':
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7876641#msg7876641

As for bugs, I just (try my best to) make sure every block of code gets a run through.  This often involves logging data, and for stuff like what I'm doing now, checking through legends.  So it's through luck/diligence that I spotted the forgotten beast assignment, and for that kind of bug, it'll always come down to a certain amount of testing (since it was a missing piece of edge-case logic, rather than a fault with existing logic or a crash), and I can only increase my chances by doing a bit more checking and being attentive.  Structurally, I can prevent bugs like this by, for instance, homogenizing checks for appropriate position holders, etc., and make those corrections and take preventative steps when I can, but there are limits there, and I am also still sloppy sometimes.  But generally, individual additions to the code can be given a proper workout without the overall complexity impacting whether or not they work as intended.  In some small sense.  The overall weird, buggy nature of the game is perhaps confirmation that it's just a giant trundling mess that we herd as it rolls about at this point.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Q - What kind of conditions need to be met before companies* manage to shake hands with dwarves and set up a building belonging to another race in the middle of a market town?

Q - Do organisations present in other civilisations go any further towards the modularity of cities pre-site rewrite development goals? Much in the mind that a long time ago you released development pictures of how villages are formed out of preset pieces but arranged appropriate to population sprawl with space for fields etc. Now we have more structures like these warehouses placing themselves between everything.

*(to keep the answer simple rather than addressing other 'organisations')

I mention this because dwarves and humans tend to be pretty friendly anyway, building roads between one another and regularly taking in adventurer traffic compared to elves who are warlike over cultural dogma and aggrieve other civilisations against them for repulsive habits. There would be circumstances where through player interaction the company's trade would break down if the player took action though right?

The only other example where this happens I can think of is when enemy civilisations decide to build fortifications over a site, like goblin trenches (which don't really do anything to boost positional advantage last time i noticed) usually as a occupier, rather than a voluntary action with overlapping stakes & shares in a city.

I was considering forcing the recipient to also value commerce, but that would pretty much stop outposts entirely.  So, currently, the existence of a rich trading company and abstract trade route is enough to grant permission; even with goblins, the abstract trade route doesn't specify where the trades are taking place, though perhaps it can use the "murder all strangers" ethic as a guide there.  Overall, I don't have enough customs/etc. data to work with; I suppose I could have added another ethic for it, but it felt like I was already too far afield to get into it.

A lot of this stuff points toward the modular site rewrite, yeah, and as stated above I'm trying very much not to get into that, heh.  The new outposts are pretty manageable, as isolated square-type buildings/zones go.  I'm more thinking of it now as another data point for the eventual rewrite, especially as it relates to an entity having a foothold within another entity's site in a more public fashion than e.g. sewer-dwelling criminals, though certainly I'll just need to do the rewrite sometime.

Quote from: Beag
1. With human religious groups getting revamped will priests in temples offer religious conversions again?
2. What intrigue quests/interactions do you have in mind for player adventurers to do with religious groups if any?
3. Will elven religion get it's own share of intrigue work? Maybe involving the closest equivalent position they have to a priest, aka druid?
4. In terms of general intrigue and plots in what ways will religious groups interact with other groups both good, evil and neutral?

1. I haven't changed anything there this time, though I no longer remember what happened to it in the first place.
2/4. Still not there yet!  We'll describe a plot from the game sometime on the dev log, I promise.  Once we've locked that in, it should all apply to your adventurers well.  But I'm hesitant to offer up plot points I end up not being able to pull off.  I have a feeling some of them are just going to prove unworkable and I'll then salvage what I can -- we've been doing a ton of pre-villain work to help some of them out.
3. I'm not sure it'll have a particular flavor to it, since there's just not a lot to work with there yet.  However, the druid can by virtue of their personality become a villain, and then by virtue of their position, most easily pull strings within their own society according to their responsibilities.  The druid's responsibility being "RELIGION", we arrive back at #2/4.  Generally, we'd like to get as many villain levers linked up with position responsibilities as we can, as it would make the societies feel more themselves overall and make the stories feel correctly directed -- but there are a lot of responsibilities.  So we'll see how it goes!

Quote from: Goonts
I have three-ish questions.
1. How raw oriented are the new companies/religions/organizations? While I expect it is mostly hard coded, will they respect ethics and values? Like an elf company refusing to buy or sell wood, or a civilization who is absolutely disgusted by commerce completely lacking companies in the first place.
2.Would an organization that was controlled by a villain or completely corrupted by a villain's plot act villainous? Killing a villain is one thing, but killing an entire evil corporation or cult is another thing entirely.
3. In the absurd case that this does happen (potential bugs notwithstanding), could your entire fortress be roped into a villainous plot and you remain blissfully unaware?
I realize that it may be too early to say if these sorts of things will make the cut before the Big Wait, but can't hurt to ask.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7877181#msg7877181

1. Yeah, the commerce value is a pre-req for company formation already, but as stated above, it was too restrictive to disallow companies to use trade routes in place that don't value commerce.  There's some more specific work that needs to be done.  The trade goods mimic the trade route -- I don't remember if world gen respected ethics properly in the (mostly invisible) existing trade system, but it just follows that.

2. They act through their leaders right now, so replacing the head with a non-villainous head who isn't corrupted will clean their behavior up.  If every position-holder is compromised, it would be difficult to clean it up, but it's still just those people.  We are missing that notion of the broader culture of the membership, but there isn't an applicable situation right now.  That is, we haven't introduced value drift more broadly into entities, just in that specific way with books and philosophers.  If we did value-drift a civ toward worse values, then if a position holder is drawn from the non-historical pool, you'd have that value set in leadership, finally.  That's kind of indirect, though.  The histfig-entity-population interface is still somewhat weird.

3. Your fortress is completely historical, so it's actually more susceptible to this kind of thing, and theoretical could run into just such a mess.  We'll see how likely that is when I get to the fort mode additions; it might not be that common if a large portion of the dwarves turns out to be incorruptible for whatever reason.  Ideally, the villains would be able to work on a lot of your people, given enough effort (and assassinate/etc. the rest.)  At that point, yeah, your fort would just be a corrupted dump; play-wise, this could be fairly petty, like, your crafts are being smuggled out and then when you tell your sheriff to do something about it, they ignore you, and then you fire your sheriff and put another one in, and they ignore you too -- then the migrants all arrive, I guess, and you put them in all the power positions (since they are more likely to be clean).  Then you could have everybody else arrested and locked up forever.  Villainous resistance to executing that plan is under consideration, but even if the simple plan works, you'd certainly be paying a price for your earlier lack of crime-fighting.  (the assumption being here that you can root out corruption if you pay attention to witness reports, clues, etc., if we get that working!)

Quote from: Real_bang
1. Will villains continue doing their evil stuff after worldgen is finished? I wonder if i can start an adventurer and just pass over some villain like necromancer, will he continue doing his netbuilding/getting corpses/etc. so when i come back to this plot it would be even in worse case than when i first saw it? Will we be able to observe bandits attacking targeted people?
2. Will some villain plots be solved by someone else (at least in worldgen)?
3. You mentioned small crimes so should we expect prison/courthouse type of buildings where they will go if being caught? Or this will be worked on later in law arc?
4. Will you fix fortress retirement before the big wait?

1. This is the plan, to try to keep worldgen and post-worldgen additions as close together as we can.  There are always hiccups with this, but we're going to make an effort.  Naturally, villain mission goals like "Assassinate X" might look much more silly zoomed in than they do when you are farther away, as we won't be able to teach them very much about discretion, etc., but that's fine for now (they'll either wait to be offloaded, or be indiscreet, depending on my programming mood that day, most likely.)
2. Yeah, counterintelligence is a big part of this.  The e.g. "Keeper of the Seals" position will be kept busy.  They of course won't be doing actual investigations the same way you'll be able to do them, especially on this first pass, but they will be able to spot corrupt people at times in some abstract sense.
3. Most of this will probably wait.  Dwarven justice hasn't relied upon courts to this point, so we can probably continue on without them.  And the law stuff is clearly important here.
4. Dunno what bug stuff is gonna happen.

Quote from: Renarin21
1. Will plotting/intrigue mechanics ever be generalized and used by non-villains, for non-villainous ends?
2. I know we won't be able to go to other planes in the near future, but will there be cases where other planes can overlap with the normal world? Like a haunted area where the veil between the living and the afterlife is thin, or (in an extreme case) a throne room for a deity that (in theory) simultaneously exists in multiple planes.


1.
Knight Otu: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7878037#msg7878037
Renarin21: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7878717#msg7878717

Yeah, even in the most innocuous cases, the frameworks we are putting into place will be available for use.  When we actually get to such uses is another matter entirely, but it's nice to have it all there in a general way.  In fact, the agreements used for adventure mode party membership and guides are being used as the principle framework for villainous agents, so we are already using non-villanous mechanics to create villainous ones.

2. Those are the sorts of things we have in the notes for the map rewrite, yeah.  The ability to have maps intersect in various ways, with various overlaps or extra (discrete) dimensions as needed, or to be in one map area, and then have it merge with another map area's properties as blocks are loaded, until you are over in one and not the other, perhaps without an easy way to return (e.g. entering a faerie land at a woodline.)  The more scenarios we game out in advance, the more we can support with the new infrastructure, with the general restriction that we'll be working locally with 3D cubes of tiles (similar to the current model), and that it's vaguely important to be able to see regional maps that are intelligible in most places (just due to the restrictions of the display, preferring overall world structures with a 2D sense is necessary, though we can still manage interesting vertical caverns and other oddities.)

Quote from: Hapchazzard
First, some villain questions:

1. a) Will the intricacies of a villain's schemes depend on their intelligence, so that there's a difference between the plots of some random street thug, an experienced court spymaster and a god of deception?
b) Speaking of schemes, I remember you talking about the investigative process in the game and piquing my interest. What kind of non-verbal clues will the player be able to encounter when investigating something? Letters, out of place items, gold coins from a specific location that were used as a bribe, etc?
c) Are there any plans to improve the observer skill in the villain update? What kind of improvements do you envision?

2. Will characters that are immortal/have extremely long lifespans(elves, magical creatures, deities, mortals augmented by life-prolonging magic) that are intelligent enough potentially have schemes that span centuries until they come to fruition? Will they be able to have numerous contingencies and back-up plans in the cards if things deviate from their predicted course? In general, how complex could plots get when dealing with creatures of vast intelligence and age?

3. How will the motivations of a sapient creature of an extremely alien mindset be simulated? Things like Lovecraftian/non-anthropomorphic deities, or forest spirits, or daemon-like entities representing some obscure sphere?

Now, some questions about magic:

4. Will there be the potential for certain magical spells/actions to become relatively common knowledge (among mages, at least) but the actual reason why they work is completely unknown/misunderstood? Say, the general consensus of why tarot cards work in the world is that Mykhanor, the God of Fate, is dispensing wisdom (and this would be the knowledge the player also has, at least initially) while in actuality Mykhanor isn't even real and the work of tarot cards is actually the product of local spirits messing around with them (but almost no one knows this).

5. How would possessions work when it comes to the player? I can imagine that completely losing control of your character wouldn't really be fun, but at the same time the entity's control of you shuold be simulated in some way.

6. Will dreams be a thing? Since dreams are an extremely common source of prophecies in fantasy, I assume that at least prophetic dreams will be a thing, but what about non-prophetic but somehow relevant dreams as well?

7. Since I assume regular, run-of-the-mill legends are also planned, will sufficiently important legends be able to 'morph' with a civ's creation myth to produce some kind of hybrid?

1. a) To some extent, though worldgen can't always be picky due to the volume of what we're working with sometimes.  We have basic stats/skills, anyway.
b) It's not entirely clear what we'll actually be able to pull off here.  Letters are the easiest, since we don't actually have to write their contents, and they can assert whatever facts we need the player to know.  Then we'll try to step down from there to make it more interesting, using cultural markers/symbols, items, spatter, whatever we have available (which is quite a lot by now!)  If we don't find a way to make that clear, we might have to highlight it in pretty obvious ways (on a skill roll or whatever), but at the very least, it'll be good atmosphere.
c) I don't have a specific plan at this point; it's the kind of thing where the day we add in non-verbal clues, we can be like, oh, cool, yeah, "observer + intrigue skill = cue for player on this clue item" or whatever.  If we're lucky, we can make it feel less cludgy.

2. I am limited myself in not possessing either (too) advanced age or vast intelligence, so the schemes will likely be pathetic, cosmically speaking.  Still, we have the computer to do some bookkeeping for us, so if an elf/gob/necro agent is activated at just the right time 200 years after being corrupted, the villain will sure seem smart.  It's difficult to plan for second or third order contingencies generally, but just a small collection of precautions/chain events will come off seeming pretty cool, I think.  And the immortal villains that are obsessed with network building should end up with quite a bit of material, though it'll have to be replaced frequently.

3. I'm not going to try right now.  The myth generator is going to give us a ton of material there, hopefully.  We can even have player-inscrutable goals that make some sort of cosmic sense once we have metaphysical objects to play with.  I'm not sure if this'll be particularly satisfying, since it is inscrutable, but I think it's worth playing with to see what kind of game/systems come out of it.  For instance, in the magic model of a force that has moods/personality, where the player has only the ability to use inaccurate divination to maybe get a vague idea of how their magic is feeling today, a supernatural creature might have a much clearer window into the force, or even a way to converse with or otherwise change it.  Even presented in an almost straight-up fashion, that could be quite interesting, and then we'll have that experience available to modify and layer with new systems and exposition, according to our sensibilities.  I'm hopeful, anyway.  Of course, the more alien the entity is, the harder it is to properly model, but maybe just being random with a correct-feeling gloss starts working at that point.

4. This will almost certainly happen in some way, yeah, though the specific possibilities will be up to what we get to.  But the triggers for effects won't always depend on complete understanding.

5. Yeah, I'm not sure yet.  If it's permanent/serious, you might just have to retire and play somebody else, so the possession can take full effect and not be hampered by the current restrictions on NPC local play.

6. PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879500#msg7879500
Regular, sleeping dreams for everybody would be a questionable processor hit, but being able to ask somebody about their last dream and then having it generate on the fly would be feasible.  Generally, we can just spool out random stuff with some sort of salience metric against the person's life (so their friends are more likely to appear, etc.), but it isn't a high priority.  On the other hand, if we do dip into some sort of dream realm/magic stuff, we could use similar methods to the populate an entire temporary pocket map or whatever and get all Dreamscape in there.  But yeah, just a totally random thing that's likely to happen on a lark as much as anything.

7. It's a tricky problem, generally, to get them understood in that higher structural way so that the morphs can also be kept internally consistent (even on a really basic level.)  We'll have to see how successful we are with the basic 'fake' myths, and go from there.

Quote from: Real_bang
Why are the Adventure overview improvements marked as partially done? Are you planning to rework them/do something more with them?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879523#msg7879523
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879770#msg7879770

I don't recall exactly what it was (it's in the notes), some information tidbits that I wanted to get to but didn't.  There's just more to be done.  In this game, of course, "done" is never really *done*, exactly, so "partially done" is even more nebulous.  But I definitely didn't feel like I got where I wanted to be, and there are outstanding specific notes to that effect on the dwarf computer.

Quote from: GenericUser
1.With Trading Companies, would embargos and trade wars now be a thing? Depriving an area of its trade rather than outright invading it?
2. Will plots be able to smuggle things by taking control of the companies?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7879862#msg7879862

Quote from: therahedwig
Have you considered updating Mantis (the bugtracker software) to the latest version?

Ah, yes, I downloaded it recently, and just need to find time somewhere where I feel free enough to deal with what'll likely be a series of issues getting it to actually work.

Quote from: Saiko Kila
About magic, religion and word functioning:
Do you plan to add option for reincarnation in belief system or world functioning? If so, would you think about reusing the soul structure, or rather just make it a basis for a new one (which maybe would be more similar to real-world religions).

What about spells resurrecting people (not zombies)?

About the general stuff:
Dwarf Fortress seem to be influenced in many parts by works of JRR Tolkien, either directly or indirectly (like through fantasy games, DnD etc.). When designing current dwarves (mainly their behaviour, character and mental abilities), were you influenced by The Hobbit, where the dwarves are basically whining machines, or the similarity is coincidental? Because if it is intentional, then I must say it's spot on (a compliment). If not maybe you had that vision in the back of your mind?

Reincarnation is in the current myth generator.  The issue of soul re-use is complicated, since most (?) reincarnation models don't have the memories/skills/relationships/etc. cleanly carrying over, but they are often available in some nebuluous sense.

Resurrection is already a (unused, possibly buggy) spell effect in the currently released version, if I remember.

Ha ha, yeah, I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.  Even the cartoon was popular in our house growing up, and our dwarves are quite a bit like that.

Quote from: Urist McSadist
How exactly are more complicated reactions going to be used during world gen?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7880292#msg7880292

Sorry the A part of the Q&A rolled around before you could clarify.  If you are talking about the moddable "reactions", then it is indeed broken there; it's a chore to code up the economic stuff in a way that respects all the reagents properly, so they often get, say, bronze, without access to the ores needed.  The pressure to fix that will increase once the economy's running and we set more jobs out into the raw files.  Feel free to repost your question for next time if that's not what you meant.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1148 on: November 01, 2018, 03:04:13 pm »

Interesting answers as usual, Toady.

falcc

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1149 on: November 01, 2018, 04:38:15 pm »

As long as you are dragging it around, it won't be able to do anything.  If you leave it on its own by command, it'll likely still sit there.  The only hope would be to give it a general networking order, most likely, and then whatever skills it has in this area would come into play.  I'm pretty sure people won't notice it is under your control unless I specifically code that in, since the name-command system isn't entity/civ driven.  I suppose it should be controllable in party mode, though there are certain...  questions there that are unresolved, and won't be until we understand magic better, at which point it becomes a more clear-cut design issue concerning loyalty/harm-to-self/etc.  Hopefully it will hate you, heh.  Whether that means it will try to have you killed is up to post w.g. mechanics; if you let it get off the leash, it could very well plot to have you killed, just on the general revenge principle, but it would have to have a network first, which the player might be foolish enough to give it if it proves good at that task.  So, hmm, oddly optimistic here.

Ehehehe. Wonderful. Anybody forcing a grimy friend to follow their every command isn't being a good friend and deserves some comeuppance.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1150 on: November 01, 2018, 04:43:15 pm »

Quote
Supposedly they do give themselves vacations when their needs get high enough (with the exclamation point.)  That doesn't address general stress level, though.  We'll see how that plays out when I address social stuff more generally, before I start the magic stuff.  It might be that robustly addressing e.g. the friendship issue will be mostly enough to keep the stress levels under control in a properly managed fort.  But yeah, something like the old "on break" might be vaguely required...  hopefully it doesn't come to that, since it is annoying for its own reasons.

Never seen that in my own game or reported on the stress & needs thread Toady, im quite sure that's them screaming into the wind because a particular memory has stuck to them, there aren't any states that i know of that force dwarves to relax. Checking the values in DFhack setting them to full or zero doesn't do much to deter them from the present activities they are trying to fill from trying to resolve dwarves needs.

Or have i misunderstood and this is your proposed solution @Toady?

Though funnily enough i had a farmer scream over the death of his friend in a state of emotional terror for 5 years before it drove him insane, i think i mentioned it on the original 44.12 release thread because the memory kept playing over the trauma for him which most definitely had a exclaimation mark.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1151 on: November 01, 2018, 05:49:14 pm »

Quote
Supposedly they do give themselves vacations when their needs get high enough (with the exclamation point.)  That doesn't address general stress level, though.  We'll see how that plays out when I address social stuff more generally, before I start the magic stuff.  It might be that robustly addressing e.g. the friendship issue will be mostly enough to keep the stress levels under control in a properly managed fort.  But yeah, something like the old "on break" might be vaguely required...  hopefully it doesn't come to that, since it is annoying for its own reasons.

Never seen that in my own game or reported on the stress & needs thread Toady, im quite sure that's them screaming into the wind because a particular memory has stuck to them, there aren't any states that i know of that force dwarves to relax. Checking the values in DFhack setting them to full or zero doesn't do much to deter them from the present activities they are trying to fill from trying to resolve dwarves needs.

Or have i misunderstood and this is your proposed solution @Toady?

Though funnily enough i had a farmer scream over the death of his friend in a state of emotional terror for 5 years before it drove him insane, i think i mentioned it on the original 44.12 release thread because the memory kept playing over the trauma for him which most definitely had a exclaimation mark.

I think he was talking about !Worship!. (Purple is unreadable, so hence red).

They strictly speaking are on breaks when they're socializing/praying. It's just that right now socializing doesn't work like it should.
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1152 on: November 02, 2018, 10:23:22 pm »

Are strange moods going to be overhauled during the upcoming Myth and Magic arc?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1153 on: November 03, 2018, 06:00:59 am »

Are strange moods going to be overhauled during the upcoming Myth and Magic arc?

Question has been answered before, the inevitability is that yes they would be reworked but really so much as far as possessed moods and the background for how a supernatural ability is created/imparted upon a race (unless its written off/rationalised as a dwarf species quirk to imaginitiveness/erratic & obsessive behaviour) so probably more flexibility on inducement & types according to how mythological statuses (and of course more direct means of possessed moods) and dieties are formed.

You could well say that immortality of elves & goblins may end up going one way or another just on the whim of the myth editor depending on how vunerable they'll be to the upcoming changes. In its presented state it seems the Myth Editor will be dealing wild cards.
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1154 on: November 04, 2018, 03:57:33 pm »

The overall weird, buggy nature of the game is perhaps confirmation that it's just a giant trundling mess that we herd as it rolls about at this point.
Instantly one of my favourite Toady quotes.
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