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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 379735 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1215 on: November 29, 2018, 02:41:04 am »

I try to follow development as close as possible, but think I've missed some major news. What is this Big Wait everyone keeps talking about? And when is supossed to happen?

The Big Wait is the period after the end of the current development arc (the villain additions ending development of significant new stuff, followed by bug fixing and balancing). During the Big Wait Toady will redesign a number of framework components (collecting a number of game save compatibility breaking changes in one go) and then build the framework for Myth & Magic (with some things using the framework, so there will be some myth and some magic, but definitely not all of it: just the beginning). There will be no DF releases during the Big Wait (unless there's an emergency release to fix some game breaking bug). At the end of the Big Wait a new DF release will be made, marking the beginning of the (first) Myth & Magic arc. This kind of long periods without and DF releases during which new functionality is developed is "normal" for DF, but what is unusual this time is that it's expected to take longer than usual (about 1-2 years) due to the volume of work to be performed. Something that's normal for a new arc is a first release that contains a lot of bugs and balancing issues, typically followed by a rapid sequence of game break correction releases followed by balancing/major issues fixing. When DF is back to sort of playable, development of new stuff (Myth and Magic contents, in this case) will take place, together with fixing of medium bugs and balancing.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1216 on: November 29, 2018, 07:46:45 am »

With dwarfs stealing money, does that bring us at all closer to having an economy back?

No because the money they are stealing does not actually exist except in World-Gen. 
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1217 on: November 29, 2018, 10:30:10 am »

Goblincookie, you're skipping so many steps there it sounds like you have read the source code. Because, you know, money does actually exist in adventure mode, there's no telling if the site generator doesn't place that money on the person of the embezzler until we see it in action :)

Japa, I think the issue with the economy is more or less that entities aren't good at updating their available resources, so the kind of changes in those resources that are caused by trade(like a fort exporting a billion mugs to the mountain homes) aren't able to be processed by the entity(dwarven caravans and traders should now have hundreds upon hundreds of mugs available...).

Embezzlement might however be able to happen without interacting with that system. If a human civ has 5 million coins, and a human in that civ has a budget of 100, embezzles 30, then the human civ doesn't care, there's still 5 million coins in the civ. Similarly, if your bookkeeper or manager is corrupt, and your clothier is churning out socks, manages to make masterwork pair, then there's a good chance your bookkeeper is -mysteriously- able to aquire those despite all odds, and it would not have to interfere with the resources available to the fort. So the abuse of power is possible to be there without worrying about the economic side effects (Though, having economic side effects might make it a little bit more Fun to the player to have a corrupt bookkeeper).

This would however not really work over different entities(because, they can't really update their resources, right?), so maybe we won't see it in play at all beyond a generic notion of 'so-and-so did this in the past, and now someone can blackmail them'. Gambling might have a similar issue, in that it would very much need to happen over different entities(the fort government and the entities that the tavern visitors are part of).

Unless I am completely wrong about the blocking issue of economy and the problem has only been stacking of currency all along :p

EDIT: Oh man, can we nickname the next release the melodrama release? "Urist, why did you give that Goblin our artifact axe?" "I couldn't help it, he was going to reveal that I embezzled a masterwork plump helmet roast and had an affair with the Queen!"

EDIT2: I am going through all the FotF threads to check what else was up with the economy. One of the other major things beyond stockpiles and stacking is that civs aren't smart enough to demand anything. That is, they don't really understand what they consume. I'll make a separate thread with all the quotes, because 'wan economy???' seems to be one of the most common questions.

EDIT3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172681.0
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 12:38:06 pm by therahedwig »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1218 on: November 29, 2018, 11:24:51 am »

Dwarven communism will likely remain for a good while. Embezzlement and such can likely be handle in abstract even without a fully fleshed out economic system. See, for example, the ability to demand tribute/homage in adventure mode if you're a conqueror bullying other towns (which doesn't seem to have any immediate material benefit last I checked), and the same in fort mode (which does).

Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1219 on: November 29, 2018, 12:20:10 pm »

Are there any corrupt activities happening after worldgen? If it only happens during worldgen, does that mean you'll eventually run out of things to blackmail people with in the world?

I try to follow development as close as possible, but think I've missed some major news. What is this Big Wait everyone keeps talking about? And when is supossed to happen?
We're currently in the medium wait for the big wait. :P
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Real_bang

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1220 on: November 29, 2018, 12:54:06 pm »

From your latest devlog you said that human became chief chef of the entire kingdom. Does that mean we can find him in some special place like royal kitchen actually doing his job or for now this role will be a filler for future law/economy arc?
Also does that mean that our forts will have more barony titles like the one above?
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1221 on: November 29, 2018, 03:45:33 pm »

1)You mentioned gambling problems. What are dwarves actually gambling on? Can they gamble on the outcomes of WG festivities/tournaments? Or is it just abstract board/card games for now?
2) With business sabotage, is that something that can take place in fort mode by the time of this release as well? Will we have dwarves arranging unfortunate accidents for rivals? Could jealous blacksmiths try to ensure the magma forges ruin the creations/lives of the other smith or "accidentally" drop a masterwork under a drawbridge/into magma?
3) Could a greedy broker in my own fort start trying to hide my nice trade goods in his cabinets? If so, would a villainous conspirator that knew approach him and threaten blackmail? Say, could an adventurer try to use him to steal an artifact? If i found out about his secret stache of goods without a dwarf reporting him, how will i go about indicting him legally? Get the guard captain stationed in his room, or deconstruct his container, and hope they discover it? I can always throw him under a drawbridge, but thats doesnt sound like quite as much fun suddenly.
4) What all will pseudo-guildmasters be doing in fort mode? Its a noble position ive modded in in the past for the heck of it, but they never served a purpose anyway, and as we arent going so far as having proper guilds, i dont see them really doing anything nobles cant already do. Could they, for instance, meet with unhappy workers like the mayor/expedition leaders do?
5) in what way will temple profaning be linked to this new framework? I dont get it, will dwarves with villainous personalities decide they want to profane the temple to become vampires? Or will they be more likely to by accident because of their personality, and good folks less so?
5b) On the flipside of that, its always been the case that only a few deities ever have temples in the world, so the deities who have one are doing all the cursing. Will other deities get small shrines or otherwise a chance to curse people anytime soon?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1222 on: November 29, 2018, 04:13:11 pm »

Are there any corrupt activities happening after worldgen? If it only happens during worldgen, does that mean you'll eventually run out of things to blackmail people with in the world?
Worldgen doesn't stop, the world keeps going on in the background while you play. It's kind of the point.

Of course there are some things that don't seem to work after initial worldgen, like artifact making (besides in player forts)  so if that's what you meant (will corrupt activities stop after initial worldgen?), then, yeah, I'd like to know that too.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:26:47 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1223 on: November 29, 2018, 05:06:52 pm »

@Eric Blank: 5a: I'd assume the villain is targeting the temple because of a grudge or whatever against that church/temple. A random act of vandalism isn't exactly a villainous plot, so I'd expect the villain to have others do the profaning for them (and only some gods curse profaners, but a potential issue would be that the world suddenly got a whole lot of vampires/weres as the result of a villainous plot aimed at the church (although it would be cool if there was a plot within the plot, so the outward appearance is to target the church, but the actual plot would be to generate vampires/weres for a doubly hidden purpose)).
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1224 on: November 29, 2018, 11:24:09 pm »

Of course there are some things that don't seem to work after initial worldgen, like artifact making (besides in player forts)  so if that's what you meant (will corrupt activities stop after initial worldgen?), then, yeah, I'd like to know that too.
Yeah, with worldgen I meant "initial worldgen".

5) in what way will temple profaning be linked to this new framework? I dont get it, will dwarves with villainous personalities decide they want to profane the temple to become vampires? Or will they be more likely to by accident because of their personality, and good folks less so?
I assume he meant the rivalry framework, so followers of one god might profane the temple of some other god they don't like?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 11:59:56 pm by Death Dragon »
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George_Chickens

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1225 on: November 29, 2018, 11:29:14 pm »

One of your talks that mentioned Shadow of Mordor got me wondering. Have there been any modern games which have inspired you to add certain things to Dwarf Fortress, or to modify a feature based on them?
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Fatace

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1226 on: November 29, 2018, 11:32:44 pm »


[Adventure Mode related] With the next update, it seems like you will implement a lot more various types of quests other than "criminal" and "Bandit" quests. Do you have plans on revisiting on how players ask info on various quests? Seems a bit tedious when having to spam through various dialogs to get info on each set of beast, criminal, bandit, ect... location.. One world took me about 15 minutes to go through them all.. Could the idea of Notice boards or Bounty Boards be added in place of this? Such as bounty boards for beasts and bandits in certain builders or taverns, or notice board, wanted signs in the lord/lady castle area? So the player could just walk up to it and obtain the knowledge of the locals of multiple quests?
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Mediterraneo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1227 on: November 30, 2018, 03:10:23 am »

Some months ago, I asked about prisoner management, and alternatives with intelligent captives.

Is there anything on the villain arc related to kidnapping, blackmail with captives or asking for ransom? Like asking money to someone rich, a job as guard to a captain of the guards, to start a war on your enemies to a general, king or diplomat, things like that?

Is there anything 'villainous' that can be plotted during a fortress mode game? As opposed to something you should 'just' be aware of and try to prevent?

Thanks!

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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1228 on: November 30, 2018, 04:14:45 am »

Fatace, don't you think the issue with the troubles isn't also that a lot of them aren't 'local'? When I ask for troubles a lot of them are across the world(Which makes 'I don't know, and I don't know anybody who could tell you' pretty infuriating too), with the exception of asking for troubles on islands.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1229 on: November 30, 2018, 05:19:29 am »

I agree with therahedwig.

I think we could gain a lot of gaming value here, if NPC could *not* give information from things they don't know anything about - and don't even know anybody who could tell you, when we ask them about troubles (maybe just asking them about gossips could have them tell us about it)
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