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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 239253 times)

Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1515 on: February 01, 2019, 02:53:26 pm »

Yeah, you need at least a pool of blood to get vampires from the well water.

Toady; can mercenary organizations pass down secrets members have? Obviously that death cult didnt get access to the slab or writings about the secret of life and death, but if they do through some means, can that end up worked into their rhetoric the way worship and particular weapons/skills/roles does? Ive made a mod with tons of secrets that dont have reanimation effects, and often see for instance fire mage mercenaries visit my fort.

also, do these companies tend to hold onto artifacts? Im thinking kinda like the stories surrounding the IRL Templar; theyd amass great wealth, supposedly also valuable religious relics, and hoard much of it for themselves or use it to further their interests. What part of those should be viable to see in game?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 03:04:23 pm by Eric Blank »
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1516 on: February 01, 2019, 11:15:33 pm »

Quote from: Mordmorgan
So are Pews, Prayers Mats, and Priests (to replace or work with the entertainer) coming with this release?

It's still unclear how fortress mode will interact with any of the new religious stuff.  The materials in the buildings haven't been a focus in world gen, though there are smaller 'shrine' type locations (abstractly currently) that will get map realizations when we move on, and that could have an impact.  Whether that involves smaller shrine zones in the fort, and a higher bar for a temple, I'm not sure.

Quote from: Inarius
About magic, how do you plan to manage spell duration between adventure mode and fortress mode ? (i mean, spell which will last days/weeks/hours, for instance)

KittyTac: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7909146#msg7909146
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7909237#msg7909237

Yeah, it's really going to have to be handled case-by-case, and also require some play-tested iteration to get right.  Certain spells will really need to be stretched (say, a defensive spell that works for 20 seconds in adv mode would actually be useful, where that's not even a tick of time in dwarf mode.  It'd probably be best to use the 144x factor there so battles feel similar and can be similarly balanced.)  Other spells, say, a curse with a year duration, would work perfectly fine between modes, obeying the calendar.  Then there are uncomfortable time frames in between, especially as people travel in and out of the site.  Morever, resources have the same problem -- a spell that creates food has almost entirely different meanings in fort/adv mode, if it makes, say, 10 fish.  We'll just need to meet this head-on, and, just as it is now, some inconsistencies will have to be part of the game.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Q: Are you still quite fond of that mini-game concept for animal taming if time allowing, you roll around to having adventurers lock up animals in cages?

Q: Will we see any more mini-games sub-activities that aren't explicitly 'games' per say (dwarvish backgammon in the tavern) but rather game-ified actions for the player's enjoyment?

I'm probably just fond of complexifying animal systems in general, though I don't often get a chance to do so.

I'm not sure what counts here.  The whole 'c' screen is a sort of mini-game, but you have to put a few dwarves in, similar to how you have to make a dwarf an animal tamer.  Vampire detection is a kind of very simple logic game at times, and villain investigations will hopefully improve on that slightly.  But the more isolated and unrelated it becomes, the less I'm into it, I guess?  There could be exceptions.  But we get more out of keeping things connected, and I'm not much of a polish-and-perfect designer when it comes to making tight little experiences, so it might be a misuse of my time.

Quote from: falcc
With the coming releases will adventurers be able to enjoy sleeping in an inn bedroom, feel unhappy sleeping on the ground recently, and enjoy a bedroom like a personal palace when they've built their own site and stashed some treasure in their room? If adding actual focus consequences is out of the question is there something keeping adventurers from having the unpleasant sleeping on the ground memory now that such memories can carry over between fortress mode games?

Not sure if it's the sort of thing I should bug report because it seems more like a design that just predates adventurers being awake in fortress mode at all.

Once the villains are in, succession games can finally act out through play some of their terrible player grudge matches. What are your policies on using Dwarf Fortress as a platform for professional GMing? I am but a simple communist and don't know how all the property licensing of video games or table top games shakes out for people that do it for money. But I write a book for money. Can I make a personalized dwarf fortress succession game a tier on a patreon?

So here's my tragic backstory: for the past three and a half years I've been writing a [now Game of Thrones] sized novel that started out as Dwarf Fortress fanfiction. It started, appropriately enough, as a quick and dirty attempt writing my first full novel (post-college) and it went horribly out of proportion. Aside from a few Urists, which are all placement names, it wouldn't resemble the game right now at all, but you might get to something like it before I finish on my end at this rate.

I have some fans among my friends that I am finally getting into the game. But they'd have a much easier time if I could set up a world for them. That got me thinking: if somebody is supporting my patreon and I'm also GMing a game with DF as the platform, is this opening up some kind of weird bad legal situation for you? I'd hate for Disney to suddenly release a Dwarf Fortress movie and claim to own it because you didn't enforce one instance of profit-making. Such is the bizarre world of US copywrite law.

Yeah, it's more incomplete than buggy, when it comes to adventurer thoughts.  I haven't decided what I want to do with that completely, though we've pretty well leaned into the needs system there, and as that continues to impact adventurers, it'll continue to be necessary to do a better job with them.

I have no idea what the wrinkles are there, but I don't mind if you play a DF game with people, whether they are paying you or whatever.  I ask that people not sell the binaries, and I'd prefer if people don't sell official Dwarf Fortress this-or-that, but the legal questions elude me.  Trademark is different from copyright; I hold the trademark for DF in the US as it concerns Dwarf Fortress as a video game, and I have a world-wide copyright as I understand it, just by having written it, due to whatever convention (Berne?)  But how that interacts with profit-making was a recent dispute in a reported post over in a 40K thread (or something) and I'd just as soon not have people fight out their perception of the details in here, heh.  Please don't.  I've always considered it a practical matter.  I have the code, and I can make something people like using that, so I stay alive.  The rest doesn't matter much, though I'm sure there are various esoteric ways to make my life miserable if people take a real crack at it.  If Disney makes a DF movie, it'd be great advertising whether they screw me on fees or not.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Well, gotta ask this one (just regarding the villains release):
Fortress Mode coups? Yea? Nay? Maybe?

Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912524#msg7912524
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912544#msg7912544
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912591#msg7912591
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7912703#msg7912703
etc. (many more posts)

He he he.

Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Demon lords are included in the villain plans if I recall, right? If so:

Is it possible that with coups being a thing, demon rulers of human civs could become common enough that I might finally see one? For instance, it seems like now the possibility is open for a demon to actively plot a human law-giver's downfall rather than simply waiting until a vacancy opens up like they do now.

Yeah, any demon that is a plotter can plot to take over a civ.  If they are the ruler of a goblin civ they wouldn't consider it an improvement to become a human civ ruler themselves (and would therefore place a subordinate in the role.)  I haven't seen it yet, but I haven't been logging for it either; I think this is because mostly the demons just end up as or start as goblin civ rulers.  There should be more diversity in their roles; perhaps it would make sense to make the named unique demons slightly more numerous now, though we don't want to over-vault the world either.

Quote from: iceball3
Hey Toady, concerning the ever shifting balance of stress mechanics, have you considered or made use of simulative models to identify whether dwarven stress can be managed at all, or is too easily managed given various time (time spent walking, sleeping, entertaining, etc), and quality of life (death of loved ones, isolation or existence of loved ones, wealth, fed levels, etc) budgets? If not, how do you establish estimates of whether dwarves can or shouldnt be able to furnish their unmet needs based on the situation?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7915060#msg7915060

I don't have much to add; there's stuff to fix and missing stuff.  We ran some numbers, but it didn't matter.  It's hard to set up, say, a unit test that'll stand the test of time on this one, since there's too much to control for.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
It's still yet a but a glimmer in your eye as we can all tell and have been told, but will the fortress's (in fortress mode) own presence as a plot actor to hire a assassin on payroll, could fufill a purpose of 'evening the field' versus very strong and at the moment difficult to take down opponents like immortal tacticians and supernaturally strong defenders? (elves are huge tactics cheaters conquering wide swathes of land and usually beating on humans to extinction with with tactic boosted beasts, and demons really tank the worst of fortress lead tower raids making them very difficult to do unless they meet a accidental demise to pass along leadership) - hopefully without presuming too much with how, but it felt fair to ask since its on development goals.
Bit less of a opened up but still i guess complex question, How much different would deliberately targeting a historical individual be compared to targeting a historical beast/megabeast in terms of a monster hunter versus what the coming assassins will do?, or is it too premature a question with everything still being built up with w.g to comment?

I just saw the parallels in agency that pushing a wad of cash into a monster hunter's (or adventurer within perspective of being that NPC) palm to kill and bring back the corpse or assure a beast is dead would be more useful than having them endlessly wandering our caverns looking for famous monsters (usally made when they as fodder fall prey to something mundane) to come to them. But that's just my opinion.

We need to address the assassin hiring conundrum post wg generally, but you'll very likely be able to send a dwarf at least.  If they run afoul of the same questions of access as w.g. assassins, you'd need somebody on the inside first, but that's what agents are for.  If the adventure mode experiments are successful, you'll likely get agents for free in fort mode as well.

Aside from whatever bugs people find, assassinating beasts is simply not considered in w.g.  For consistency, it shouldn't be an option generally, until we figure out what the germane differences are (sleep, size, etc.)  I don't have a conceptual problem with somebody assassinating, say, a giant, if what they do makes sense.  I assume the current monster hunters would still be adrenalin junkies, but maybe some of them would prefer to rid the world of monsters with as little fuss as they can manage.  Probably won't address that this time around though.

I do agree that the monster hunter cavern death-run as it stands is deeply silly.

Quote from: therahedwig
I am getting a little worried we'll see a ton of goblin kings everywhere due the combo of eternal life+villain personalities. Do you have any kind of mechanisms in mind to avoid every single ruler being an immortal scumbag?

Also, future DF games will proly have a ton more kids if Nushrat's 7 children are any indication. Kinda cool a figure can really specialize in cloak and dagger though.

EDIT:

I just realized that the immortal scumbag kings would actually fit in a dystopian world. Will the mythgen happy-vs-terrible tone slider only affect the types of things and creatures in the world or do you think it might also affect how game mechanics operate?

Immortal critters do have a distinct advantage over people that die.  Franchises have had various ways of dealing with this, with varying degrees of half-assitude.  My current approach has been to skirt the line as long as possible, since I'm interested in seeing the dynamics and maintaining real differences.  However, the myth release will throw a giant wrench into all of this, I think.  Broad creature-type relations will be better understood, and the nature of immortality will be better understood.  Humans and dwarves could still be immortal or have immortal subgroups.  Whether or not we then apply additional world-building rules to the default immortal races will be a little easier to wrap our heads around (or totally impossible, he he he.)

The tone slider will definitely hit mechanics toward the peaceful direction, to the point of turning violence off, so it stands to reason that the harsher direction might also see some coaxing of mechanics, though the game is already quite violent and has dark mechanics, so it might be more subtle.  There will be a lot of results-oriented tweaking and good-enoughedness applied here I suspect.

Quote from: Death Dragon
I was also wondering about assassinations:
Will we be able to target ANY historical figure in the world with assassinations/ kidnappings or are we limited to the ones who hold some kind of position like site ruler or the dean of the cheesemaker's guild? I was wondering what the interface for that menu would have to look like to not be too overwhelming.

Some other random questions:
Adjacent sites of the same civilisation can sometimes get into border disputes which lead to arguments and possibly armed combat. Do the new friendship/ rivalry/ villainy systems in some way interact with border disputes or is there no change to them?

In the roguelike celebration talk you gave the example of a necromancer who wants to take revenge on the town that initially banished him and who is able to start a war between humans and elves by sending someone to influence the human law giver. Is this all possible by now or is there still something missing for this to be possible?

Oh, just thought of another one because of the latest devlog:
Do you plan on making NPC assassin do their deeds secretly in a fort mode fort, like vampires do? What I mean is, will they be able to kill someone and leave the fort, passing by other dwarves without anyone noticing that they are a/ were the murderer?
It would be a bummer if they automatically just turned into "invader" status after the murder because that would mean no assassin would ever leave a player fort alive, like the guys who try to steal artifacts.

Yes, it's an open question as to who you should even be allowed to know about.  Perhaps you'll need an agent in place to target other people?  The position holders are probably public knowledge.  There will likely be some cases we miss where a player has a cause to assassinate somebody lower down (a thief of an artifact, say?), and we'll have to catalog potential reasons to bump people up the priority lists perhaps.

More hearth vs. hearth etc. rivalries were on the list of possible avenues to explore, and we didn't get there, and probably won't for this time now.  There's certainly a lot to do there.  We are still, maybe, hoping to get some preferential treatment in terms of elevating hearth lords to important positions.

We still need the necromancer to act on an entity grudge.  It's in the notes and we'll get to it.  The necromancer-vampire stuff is one of the big outstanding w.g.-first items left to go, along with hideouts and some improvements to counter-intelligence and punishment.

I hadn't quite gamed out fort-mode assassination details; I think the way you describe is probably best, as a parallel to the "successful" assassinations from world gen.  Sometimes, the w.g. ones 'fail', but there's still a duel where the assassin wins; this would probably be analogous to the invader version.  Undetected murder probably involves them succeeding in their stealth rolls until they are adjacent to the target, and then rolling a good attack, which it would then fudge and just turn into a murder (like the fell mood) -- if they aren't sneaking (because they are a visitor or a citizen), they'd just need one stealth roll adjacent to the target to simulate the sudden attack, say, and then the good attack roll.  The automatic fell murder strike successes have always needed some sort of additional justification or material check, but we can ignore that for now.

Quote from: Inarius
"Snang still carries it."
Does this mean that, now, artifact armors or weapons are actually used and "seen" by people, and considered as armors or weapons, and not just "treasures to be stored/displayed" ?

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916276#msg7916276
Inarius (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916284#msg7916284
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917788#msg7917788

This one was held, yeah, but there's still a lot of storage.  If I recollect, Snang just didn't have any place to put it.  Still need to clean that up generally.

Quote from: Grand Sage
It seems all major position holders (kings, druids ect.) are also villains. Is this intended behaviour or just the effect of something, that isn't implemented yet, and will it stay that way in the release?

Are villains and there groups going to fight about there respective agents ect, or can any given person work for/be extorted by any given number of criminal organizations? in other words, will there be "turf wars" in any sense of the word?

I am not sure if this was asked before, but how many of these new noble positions will we see/be able to appoint in Fort mode?

thx in advance, and thx for an awesome devlog!

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916533#msg7916533
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7916740#msg7916740

As Shonai_Dweller says, they aren't all villains; I've just been talking about villains a lot.

There's some tussle between the orgs, but since the main villains are so secretive, it's indirect right now.  The counter-intelligence stuff could end up changing that somewhat, but we'll see.

I haven't yet added new fort mode positions.

Quote from: Beag
1. With the recent story about intrigue and landed titles and one of the remaining candidates being gaining entry level positions/titles from intrigue do you think it is becoming more likely that with the villain fleshing out update our adventurers will be able to get titles/positions in civilizations by doing quests for high ranking people?
2. In the recent story you posted a lot of land holding nobles were mentioned. Will the land they hold actually exist in that we could visit it? Also how big and how small a parcel of land could a noble hold? Would it have to be at least as big as a site or could they hold a subsection of land within a site?
3. Another thing mentioned in your recent story was assassins. Could our adventurers take up assassination quests in the coming update and like wise could our adventurers hire assassins to kill people? It was stated a while ago that our adventurers could hire their own agents.
4. Finally if our adventurers found a site will they be able to grant landed titles to their subjects?

Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917303#msg7917303
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917347#msg7917347
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917356#msg7917356
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917791#msg7917791
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918387#msg7918387
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918511#msg7918511

1. We've been aiming at this as a pre-Big-Wait feature; as you suggest, it is closer now as the additions pile up.  Maybe not this release though.
2. Yeah, this currently refers to the noble ranks and how they interlink w/ market towns and vassals and so forth.  They hold the town they live in, and its linked villages (if they aren't held by somebody unattached), but it's an abstract notion.  And yeah, the human 'lord' positions are a bit more involved now, as there can be hearthlords in market towns that get jumped up to a 'baron' status, and the nobles placed in townless castles are also 'barons' (I think, though I'd considered a name like 'castellan' that didn't quite fit as (I think) it has a more organized military inflection than I intended.  This could still change.)
3. (addressed w/ Untrustedlife question below)
4. These are civ-level distinctions, so the adventurer would need to found their own civilization/culture; so this is hampered by the fact that those are smashed together (something we wanted to address for the status/property/etc release.)

Quote from: Verdant_Squire
1. Will creatures always necessarily hold grudges against their former partners, or is it possible for a relationship to simply "not work out" with no ill-will between either person involved? What causes someone to end a relationship, aside from unwillingness to commit?

2a. Should a successful usurper lack the wisdom to properly dispose of the former monarch and their supporters, is it possible for said ex-monarch to orchestrate their own "counter coup" to take back power? If the ex-monarch dies before they can attempt to take back the throne, but still has kids kicking around, would those kids recognize their status as former heirs, and plot to reclaim their rightful throne?

2b. As an extension of the previous question, how will already existing claims interact with the new villain system? Would current position holders be able to recognize potential claimants as a threat, and dispose of them via assassins?

2c. Will we see the children of ruling monarchs engage in the historically time honored tradition of sibling rivarly over who gets to be the heir? Would the degree to which this occurs be affected by how much the civ in question values family / power?

3. Will villains attempt to place people other than themselves in civ ruler positions? For example, could a demon or rival civ leader try to position a more easily influenced or cowardly character as the leader of a neighboring civ? If so, is it necessary for said character to already be caught up in the web, or could this happen without their knowledge of the strings being pulled?

4. What happens if a coup attempt doesn't quite go the way the plotters were hoping?

5. What exactly happens if the monarch of a civ is the primary propagator of a villain network? Would there basically be no consequences whatsoever to be uncovered in that situation? [Who the heck is gonna punish you when you're already at the top of the chain?]

6. Does the abstracted "personal account" manifest in the world in any way, even if said manifestations are entirely arbitrary? IE: The hearthpeople of a rich lord being better equipped in general?

(updated: Is the puesdo-"equipment funds" system used exclusively by mercenaries, or will other civ landholders at various levels be able to interact with the system?)

And a few questions about the upcoming myth and magic arc:

7. We're going to be getting procedural civilized critters - Does this mean that we'll be seeing new types of procedurally generated populated sites? Or are generated creatures just gonna piggyback off of the existing types of sites for the first pass?

8. On the higher settings for randomness, is it possible for worlds to come out of world gen with more than one moon, or perhaps multiple suns? Or maybe no sun and/or no moon? Will these effect the daylight or seasonal cycle on the world? IE: pitch black nights on a world with no moon, different types or cycles of day for worlds with multiple suns, ect.

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7917624#msg7917624

1. Oftentimes people just break up right now.  Grudges don't always happen.

2abc. We had this claim system, broken/unused for a long time, and it hasn't yet been resurrected.  It'd be a fine time to get into civil wars and so forth, but it's still felt like the system doesn't quite support that kind of more society-wide factionalism; the villains have the convenience of operating where society doesn't need to evaluate their acts.  We'll get it handled robustly at some point.

3. Yeah, sometimes the villain does not desire the position for themself.  They don't work with personality traits yet though, and don't try to place uncorrupted people.  We almost got to one case of this (related to site rulership vs. the notion of a 'weak' civ ruler that'd be less likely to retake a site), but it hasn't happened yet.  As usual, the periphery of possible features grows faster than the implemented ones.

4. Ha ha, still need to handle punishment stuff, and hope to.  Right now they just don't pull the trigger if success isn't guaranteed.

5. Yes, in this case they are just a tyrant messing with their people, so their own cops can't do much about it, legally.

6. All adventurer-type people from world gen can upgrade their equipment now, *if* they run into some accounted-for money, which most often but not exclusively happens with mercenaries.  I haven't extended the system beyond that yet (aside from, say, the ability to start a merchant company, which also requires starting money.)  There might be a bit more before release, since the villains haven't started spending on hideouts/strongholds yet.

7. For the myth/magic stuff, yeah, the hope is to blow the site notion wide open at some point (probably adjacent to the map rewrite.)  If the map rewrite doesn't end up in the first pass, it would be best not to extend sites very much, as the work will end up wasted.

8. This is already implicit (but not present) in the prototype, as I've separated out all the astronomical objects.  There's a bit of coding to do to get them physically respected in the lighting and in various displays, but yes, having completely different or non-existent day/night cycles is a goal, including situations like the giant pillars w/ lights or light trees from Tolkien, say, where the relevant object isn't necessarily an astronomical object.  And of course the 'astronomical' objects could be deities-in-chariots or whatever.  Some cases are harder than others, and that practicality will guide what happens in most cases for the first pass especially.

Quote from: Untrustedlife
1. Will player adventurers be able to join an existing villains organization and actually participate

2. Are the assassin agreements available to player adventurers in adventure mode? Iíve always wanted to play as a proper assassin. And the most recent dev log made me excited.

2. This is hoped, but there are some details that need to be worked out.  The floating of the contracts is abstracted in world generation, and we'd need to come to terms with how that works in practice.

1. More generally, there are a couple issues:  recruitment and local realization of missions.  Neither of these are strictly required for the adventurer to be a top villain (just a little recruitment-like chat with the companion, if that.)  Certain local realizations, like artifact thefts and assassinations, are already done with existing structures.  Doing a local realization of blackmail or a coup or a corrupt position appointment would require more work, and we haven't committed to that.  Recruitment runs counter to investigation to some extent; they can't just give themselves away.  Ponderment continues.

Quote from: Nopenope
Since you are working along the usual worldgen -> post w.g. -> adventure -> fortress cycle, which ones of the following features are more likely than not to make it to fortress mode (I'm basing myself off your devlogs since the last release):

1. Advanced romance (divorces, rejections, triangles, jealousy, simultaneous partnerships, remarriages, children outside wedding, etc)
2. Dwarven mounts
3. Visitor agents that are part of villain networks, and/or villain citizens
4. Plots to obtain positions (mayor, baron, etc.) or artifacts
5. Assassinations, kidnapping, theft, insurrection, tips for invasion as a result of these plots
6. "Intrigue skill" or loyalty being relevant and/or trainable
7. Sending agents of your own, capturing or killing the villain offsite
8. False identities for agents, villains and other non-vampire migrants/visitors
9. Advanced friendships (people becoming war buddies or childhood friends in your fort, or war buddies/childhood friends arriving together as migrants, etc)
10. Advanced crimes (corruption, embezzling, blackmailing, sabotage)
11. Athletic competitions
12. Appointable new positions (keeper of the seal, royal justiciar, master of beasts, etc.)
13. Foreign trading outposts, and/or being able to send trading outposts offsite
14. Prophets and/or priests arising from temples or arriving as visitors
15. Religion conversion, priesthood positions/occupations
16. Monastic orders

EDIT: to clarify, I'm asking about whether they'll be implemented in fort mode as an actual gameplay element, and in this upcoming release (or at least in subsequent passes, before the big wait, in one of the minor incremental/bugfix ones)

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918596#msg7918596
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918635#msg7918635
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918698#msg7918698
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918759#msg7918759
Grand Sage: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918864#msg7918864
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7918942#msg7918942

therahedwig is correct on 5, 8, 9, 11.  I have just the slightest more optimism on 13-16, but only to the extent I've mentioned so far; we might do some token offering to religion and trade, as time permits.

A bit of 1 is likely.  2 is not (for the next release; can't say for any army stuff that happens before big wait.)  3/4 guaranteed for next time, though for 4, plots to obtain positions run afoul of the player's ability to use the 'n' screen for appointed positions.  6 seems likely as part of fortress investigations.  7 is almost guaranteed (just need to see how the adv mode orders work out, seems like a go.)

12 depends on if I change the raws.  Dwarves don't currently indulge in variable position definitions, so anything there would need to be added explicitly, and a barrier there is that fort mode is more granular and so there'd need to be some implementation detail that w.g. doesn't have.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1517 on: February 01, 2019, 11:15:52 pm »

Quote from: Hapchazzard
EDIT: Since the latest development update mentioned upcoming work on villain hideouts, I thought I'd ask some pertinent questions first:

1. I don't imagine it makes sense for bandit forts to have fine granite walls, barring edge scenarios. Will palisades and other such ramshackle fortifications possibly be making an appearance, and see utilization at other types of sites, too? (villages, minor forts, watchtowers, etc)
2. Are there plans for the possibility of 'overlapping sites' - for example, a bandit hideout at the mouth of a cave or the entry levels of a ruin, cities built atop the remains of much older settlements, etc. in the somewhat foreseeable future? Is this something that the update will try and tackle, or is it far too difficult in scope to shoehorn into the update?
3. Was there some specific reason for castles being removed in the first place? (perhaps someone that's been around here longer than me might also have the answer to that question)
4. What kind of size variety do you anticipate for castles?
5. Similarly, do you have any ballparks as to how frequent you want castles to be in a typical human civilization? Having just 3-4 castles in an average civilization would seem a bit odd, seeing as generic-western-fantasy-kingdoms tend to be littered with castles, and this applies to real-life countries, too (those that built them, at least).

Now, my myth & magic questions:

1. Will there be some kind of sanity system beyond the current strange moods, eventually?
2. Are there plans to make 'forbidden knowledge' a thing? As in, knowledge that has an inherent mental effect on anyone who discovers it and doesn't have a strong enough willpower to resist it's effects. Knowledge not meant for mortal minds causing mental degradation, despair, existential dread, unnatural obsessions, etc. is a fairly common trope in fantasy. If this is in the cards, do you have any ideas on how it would be determined what snippets of knowledge are significant enough to warrant mental effects?
3. Speaking of strange moods - what is the long-term plan for them? Will the eventually be scrapped with an entirely different system?
4. Will the player somehow be conveyed the mundaneness of the magic their character is seeing? i.e. being conveyed that the fireball spell the enemy mage is using is very common and run-of-the-mill, versus it being some extremely strange, novel spell that they've never even thought to be possible up until now?
5. Will NPCs be able to react in various ways to magic, depending on their own experience and knowledge of the arcane arts? I can see something like this being especially interesting in low-magic worlds. Stuff like:
-Peasants/townfolk that have never seen magic crowding around someone doing sorcery in public in fascination, or alternatively running away in terror
-Being able to prove your magical capabilities to skeptical individuals, with a wide range of reactions depending on the skeptics' personality
-Authority figures receiving rumors of powerful enough (again, depending on the level of magic in the world) mages, and potentially sending emissaries to offer employment

1. I can't promise they'll be making their way beyond the bandits and mercenaries this time, but yeah, the tall fine stone walls of the towns will not be what the bandit forts are working with.
2. This is a hard problem and will require at least the map rewrite planned for some point during the myth/magic releases.  Maybe even more will be needed.  Certainly these kinds of sites are highly interesting, and it would be nice to mix all sorts of architectures from time periods along with various natural features, like practically every real-world location does.  But there are a lot of systems/generation/structures that need to be respected in DF, and it stops layering from being straightforward.
3. Something to do with food and also how the dwarf nobles got changed?  It was so long ago I don't remember.
4. It isn't currently a factor; it has no way of judging the difference, so they remain kind of half-assed, as before.  This might not remain the case once I get to adv mode, but we'll see.
5. All of our numbers are lower than real-world counterparts.  However, between the castles in every market town, the mead halls, and the ones built outside towns/village (which can become reasonably dense, a few tiles distant from each other so it doesn't look silly, but you can get quite a few), it's as many castles and other defensive structures as you might want for the populations and population centers at play.  This is discounting border forts, long walls etc. -- they still really don't understand their spatial relation to adversarial civilizations, or their vulnerable points on the map.

1. There is already in terms of the long-term memories and stress and how that manifests.  I'm aware of e.g. Lovecraft-style sanity-check games and so forth, and there's supposed to be a certain supernatural aspect to what's going on there; we'll have to think about how that'd be different from the regular extreme stresses we have now.  Dunno if we'll end up doing something with that.  Various spell effects related to the matter are also on the table.  (There's additionally the matter of improving the general mental illness model, since it's not particularly reflective of reality.)
2. This is related to the above; we'd need to model it, but given the number of 'corruption' mechanics already in mentioned in the prototype, I imagine this will be the case.  Technically speaking, the necromancers currently in the game already work this way; the secret to immortality turns them into zombie-raising loners bent on killing the living and writing lots of books about their tower.
3. This is unclear; there's a certain legacy aspect to it, but there's also going to be a divergence at some point between what counts as "vanilla default-slider generated world" and "vanilla editor example world", and stuff will shake out one way or the other.  We'd like to keep a lot of the now-iconic matter (plump helmets!) intact somehow, and it's a question what kind of raw objects will feed into the generator and which will live in stock editor world land.  The final setup could end up so easily mix-and-match that it becomes a moot point.
4/5. Exposition will not be easy, but the goal is to paint the broad strokes as you are starting your first game (and subsequent games probably.)  This will help a bit, so that if you understand that "fire wizards" are everywhere, then it won't have to explain how common every fire effect is as they come.  This will need a lot of refinement though.  This ties in to the reaction of non-player characters/civilians/etc. to the magic, and that'll be an exposition tool for us as well.  It'll be important for observable-and-rare/forbidden magic to affect bystanders and cause reactions among the position-holders etc.  We're hoping for all of this.

Quote from: Real_bang
With bandits receiving bandit forts and bugs being fixed will we be able to finally complete quests on destroying bandit camps? Same goes to criminals in town catacombs

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919671#msg7919671
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919712#msg7919712
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919859#msg7919859
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7919996#msg7919996

Yeah, anything to do with this is a bug, and likely not fixed yet if ongoing.  As I go through adv mode, that might change as I'm testing forts etc.

Quote from: therahedwig
Do you think we'll see adventure mode jails to go with our villains and the interrogation of them? Like, I can understand there's just too little to do the full range of crime and punishment, but I am currently having a vision of bringing a villain to a law enforcer, and then the law enforcer go 'cool, yes we were looking for this guy' and then lets the villain go because law enforcer is an adventure mode npc who doesn't know what to do with law breakers.

Goblins are the only ones with decent enough dungeons right now.  We've been discussing this a bit, handling the humans and non-player forts better
(elves ethics/laws more interested in exile and consumption it seems.)  The code for caging/chaining people already exists (see fort mode), so certain difficulties are managed, others would need help.  The alternative is a violent end to all investigations, which is non-ideal.

Quote from: Aid
Sorry for my English, it's hard to be a Dwarf Fortress fan who knows English badly,
and so my questions are:
1.1 Will in the game, pantheon of the gods united from the very beginning of the generation of the world, or united by the faith of people?
1.2. Will the gods place where they are most of the time, such as the Ancient Greek in Olympia?
1.3. Can the gods have a relationship and can they have children?
1.4. May be the main gods in their pantheon of gods, for example Zeus in Olympus, may be villains plans for the power struggle?
1.5 Can there be wars between the pantheons. Will people come to war for their faith, on the contrary, God will enter into a war for those who believe in him, this will give a little balance because demons in goblins can kill a hundred for the battle?
2. You will test all updates with a magical release?
3. Is it possible to do something like gladiatorial battles to death, or just for training. Or to make a different type in different worlds or kingdoms as a tournament every 5 years and with the reward for determining the best warrior, and in the other is generated so that once a year, random creatures in the worl are battling to death, here's a lot to come up with the release of magical releases. Especially if they could have been an adventurer
I hope someone understands my Google Translate

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920328#msg7920328

1.1-5.  Eric's correct about these, but if these are myth/magic arc questions, then these are possibilities we've considered, yeah, and the prototype already has, say, gods having children, gods having 'homes', gods manifesting, and so forth.  It will be a lot more interesting than it is now.

2. Yeah, as Eric says, we test the release as best we can.  The bug tracker attests to the (non-)efficacy of this, but it would be much, much worse without what we currently catch.

3. Arenas etc. have been on the table for various releases over the years (including this one), but they generally don't get selected for various reasons (economy, status, audience coordination, etc.)  Realized festivals/competitions have similar issues.  We'll continue to consider them.

Quote from: Immortal-D
In the Jan. 24 Dev log, you mentioned a lot of bug fixing.  Have you found and/or fixed anything related to the Stress system?  Is there anything we can do to help with that issue?  Like making specific scenario test forts and uploading them.  I thought of this again because my current Fort had a Dwarf with maximum happiness (DFHack cheat) become depressed in a single tick after viewing a pool of Horrid Sludge.

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920336#msg7920336

As therahedwig says, this wasn't bug fixes for old stuff, just the new ones I introduced at the time.  Stress fixes will come before the Big Wait.  We'll see about before this release; feels tighter and tighter as we go, naturally.  But it'll happen.  What you describe sounds like a simple bug that would work with a tracker save and report if it isn't already up, depending on how the happiness value was changed -- the system has become complicated, so the hack would have to hit a lot of info to really clean a dwarf up.  I assume it does, but I have no idea.

Quote from: Nopenope
Do social skills (other than Pacifier, Consoler, Judge of Intent) have any gameplay effect in fortress mode?

(for what it's worth, the wiki states that it is unclear what they actually do)

Are "giant sleeping monsters that are so massive they act as map features", or severed body parts thereof ("The left eye of Thatakeus" or whatever) on the table for the myth and magic release?

Are you worried about the general activity slowdown in the forums and wiki? How would you explain that despite the community shrinking in size, donations have gone up?

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920328#msg7920328
Nopenope (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920330#msg7920330
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7920336#msg7920336

Currently in fortress mode, they all impact conversation rolls in groups.  The conversation 'tasks' are console, haggle, discuss request, calm venter, and cover for gaff.  These tasks impact tree demands, trade agreement % values, haggling, whether you can cover if you screw up and offer the elves something wrong, etc, and the skill rolls matter.  Regardless of the skill name, "consoler" isn't the only skill used to console somebody.  Here are the lists:

Console: console, persuasion, negotiation, lying, conversation, comedy, flattery
Haggle: persuasion, negotiation, lying, intimidation, judge intent, comedy, flattery
Discuss Request: persuasion, negotiation, lying, intimidation, judge intent, flattery
Calm Venter: persuasion, negotiation, lying, intimidation, judge intent, comedy, flattery, pacify
Cover for Gaff: persuasion, negotiation, lying, comedy, flattery, pacify

I'm not sure if any of the existing skills are missing there, but that's the list.  Some of those should have modifiers (obviously, 'console' should matter more for consoling than flattery), but that isn't the case right now.  And as you can see, persuasion, negotiation, lying, and flattery are the best skills to max out, as it stands.  I'll change this at some point.  Looking at it now makes me want to change it today, heh.  If I do, it'll just be some percentage modifiers.  Yeah, count on that.  But still, the general skills (like "persuasion" and "lying") will be usable in all situations.  Expect console to matter more for console and pacify to matter more for calm venter at the very least for next time; there should also be personality effects from the target, but I'll hold off on that.

Massive map feature monsters are probably more likely than multi-tile creatures for the magic release (assuming a map rewrite), as they are a completely different object that can follow new and easy rules (whereas multi-tile creatures are a nightmare.)  The myths already have severed bits of deities and mythical creatures becoming various stuff in the prototype; if they stay around and chill awhile, I wouldn't be surprised, especially if I don't have to do much more than the existing eye/worm 'grass' to make them feel appropriate (and I can do more shape-wise if I have the map rewrite to work with, like, an actual giant round eye, heh.  Half-spheres are easy, anyway.)

I don't have additional data or explanations for the various community metrics.  The forum numbers don't feel *tremendously* different.  The 500-700 ranges for Januarys from 2012 to 2019 are pretty consistent; it has dropped a bit, and sometimes it dips into the 300s nowadays, but we had a 739 today, so I really have no idea.  The latest version downloads are currently around 60000 a month, and that's been consistent for the last five months according to these stats.  I don't have the older numbers on hand, but it doesn't strike me as different from what I've seen (and I have no idea how many of those downloads are "real".)

Quote from: Eric Blank
Toady; do monasteries, bandit forts and castles have a mead hall-like zone that counts as being in control of the site once claimed, and pedestals/rooms for artifacts?
Did roadside inns/taverns make it in this time around?

I haven't done the maps yet.  I'll make a note to handle the zones.

Don't have roadside sites at this point.

Quote from: terribleperson
With bandit forts getting added, what features are missing before a DF world could theoretically reenact the classical Chinese novel Water Margin? Could a group of bandits end up serving as a military for the group they once preyed on? Similarly, could a military unit end up as bandits? If not, what features are needed before they could?

Ha, that was a long one with many individual details.  Ignoring those, we'd still need a lot.  The bandit -> military unit transition isn't in.  Right now, the mercenary groups just described in the log still have a wall up between them and bandits, organization-wise, but those are the lines we're hoping to blur entirely later on.  We also don't have more official military units than hired mercenaries -- the armies aren't well-defined, mostly (I don't remember how official they became.)  There's a notion of the reputation/fear/etc. between bandits and the rulers, and of the reason why bandits become bandits; there's a "honorable/righteous outlaw" concept, in the face of tyranny/corruption/etc.  Those are still missing.  Much more, I'm assuming; just refreshing my memory from the wikipedia entry.

Quote from: Asin
Toady, what sort of symbols/tiles represent these new sites you're adding in (monasteries, bandit forts, castles)?

The castles had an existing symbol, the gray circle that's up top in the glyph set.  The monastery is a dark gray one.  The forts use the inverted one up there, brown, like a wooden wall with a central structure.

Quote from: falcc
I notice my starving adventurer dwarf is unwilling to eat live vermin but also won't lick them like she would with another unedible object. Is this because of a moral, an ethic, a bug, or a goofy joke? More importantly is there any intention of a dedicated Lick button as separate from the eat button so we can activate modded talismans or activate modded frogs? Are any advanced Inventory interactions planned for vermin since they can suddenly be a pet and at least picked up and put down? Are any more Shift+I button interactions planned before the big wait since so many fancy items are kicking around now?

Also I've been looking at vermin code a lot and it looks like a few kinds can attack (like bees) but most don't. Is there any reason mosquitos don't bite, even without the bloodsucker effect? Would it be traumatizing to dwarves to be bit by a vermin they don't like, or not any moreso than being around the vermin?

Mel_Vixen: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921499#msg7921499
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921535#msg7921535

The lick thing is just an old silly message generally; I didn't have particular ideas about live vermin or how it interacted there.  A lick command would go in when there's a serious vanilla reason for it, likely.  I don't have particular plans for more Shift+I stuff in the near-term.  We're missing a ton of adv mode activities dating back to 2002, like digging.  It just needs a directed push at some point.

The raws are just underfed generally.  The Capybara-centric sound system has only been extended in mods, etc.  Just lots to do.

Quote from: Death Dragon
What do the new monasteries look like? Are they multiple buildings in close proximity or are they just one? Are they a big rectangle or is there more to their design?

Dunno!  All the maps are to be worked on, once we get out of worldgen.  They don't have any separate defined structures at this point, but that doesn't mean they won't have buildings, and it's possible they'll end up with a temple and library for some religions.

Quote from: CorkNite
How will the Myth and Magic update affect night-creatures?

The details aren't set, but in the prototype we've been running with more explanations of them that make mythological sense.  This'll likely have effect on their types and appearances, ultimately leading to how they are combatted etc.  Ghosts are a special case; the disposition of the soul etc. in whatever afterlife will likely influence what ghosts are, whether they exist, etc.  As with other vanilla fort mode stuff, there'll likely be options that keep a kind of default ghost-rich environment, to the extent it isn't displaced by something better.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
When you start ordering your party around to do villaneous things, will your group show up on the new "villain networks" map? I imagine that would be a lot of fun to track and compare with the other networks in the world.
And, on the same subject,
I know the schedule is now way off, but just how villaneous will we be able to be with our parties. All the way from ordering artifact stealing, assassinations and coups?  (let's say, by the start of the Big Wait in case it's not all in right away)
Oh, and,
Do big villaneous networks persist after the bad guy at the top is dead?

Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921568#msg7921568
Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7921572#msg7921572

Ha ha, yeah, that would be amusing.  I'm not sure how the code'll work yet...  it seems like, to get retirement or any specific plot to work, the "intrigue perspective" would need to be implemented for your adventurer, which is what it works from when it outputs the image.  So, probably.

The intention is that you'll be able to use any of the command available in post w.g.  And the intention for post w.g. is that villains will be able to use all of the commands from w.g.  So that's the goal.  That is, we're hoping to have an adventurer-led coup in this release.  Whether or not we can pull it off depends on various factors.  It's quite likely it won't work if the local map is loaded; doing that always takes a ton of extra work, and we don't even have the regular position appointments defined at that level.  This will leave the work to your traveling subordinates, who will then inform you that the final move has been made.  Stuff like assassinations and thefts on the other hand already have local mechanical realizations (or just need a few tweaks.)

Yeah, people running their own assets can keep working.  They all understand what they are in it for, so some of them will stop.  Currently, it doesn't have the villain get lieutenants together in a room to know each other, so the network can't patch up fully like that, as it would in a more organized entity with positions.  At some point, the "criminal organization"/"outcast" entity should probably come into play, but villains right now don't operate with that structure.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are there raws for the new stats like loyalty, intrigue, etc for our custom civs?

Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923099#msg7923099
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923130#msg7923130

Yeah, intrigue is a skill.  "Loyalty"/"trust"/"fear"/etc. (not as values, but as variables in a relationship between two hfs) don't fit into the raws directly (since we don't have pre-defined hfs), but the related values (and personality etc.) affect them; this system of fleshing out relationships is still in its infancy, so I'm not quite sure if some parts will make it out to the raws or perhaps new values/etc. will be necessary.  Seems okay so far.

Quote
Quote from: Death Dragon
I know there's no way for us to pay them without a proper economy, but can the player in any way interact with these new mercenary companies in fort mode?
Quote from: Thomasasia
How will players be able to interact with the mercenary groups in Fortress Mode?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923142#msg7923142
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923167#msg7923167
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923176#msg7923176

Ha ha, yeah, we were planning on a special announcement if you get attacked by one; even if it's a little more than you should know about them, it'd be a waste not to get those details out there.  Possible exception is if a lone mercenary (who is part of a company) sneaks into your fort on a job and completes it without being detected; you might not get either their or their company's identity immediately in that case.  But sending out an agent and getting the company identity and then finding a way up the chain is a core part of the planned game here.

To a larger possible point, it wooould be cool if you could hire them.  The trade depot broker does already track the currency value of goods, and there are those coins and everything; just because the proper economy is turned off doesn't mean there isn't already trading.  We're still considering this.  It would be funny if that were the only practical use for fort mode coins for a while, having a dwarf messenger hauling a pile of them off-screen with a job request (unless mercenaries do jobs on credit and you settle up later with a representative; at this point, *if* we get to this, it'll be whatever's easier to program.)  You could see every gold vein as a number of contracts, in coins per tile, if they aren't willing to take your golden figurines.

Quote
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Can player adventurers join and participate in mercenary orders? That sounds like an awesome opportunity to get a "I trained to battle alongside the death mercenaries" kind of story, like that montage you get in basically all fantasy movies, where the monk order or that one knight teach you how to fight. It would also just be cool to go up in rank and have that. And to get those various "contracts" and actually complete them.(Dark Bortherhood here i come)
Quote from: Thomasasia
In adventure mode, will we be able to join them or found our own?

It would be cool, yeah.  I won't know until we get there how the time is feeling, but the recruitment in world gen is pretty easy-going (assuming you profess the correct religion and are willing to use the correct weapons, should those be required), so it would make sense.  We don't quite understand the nature of the new parties, or what it means when a companion joins you when you aren't already in a hearth together; you can make your own hearth, but that's different from these new "military organizations", and it certainly makes sense for the adventurer to be able to found one of those (even more sense than founding a hearth without a site claim.)  We'll just have to see how it all shakes out.  The primary focus for adventure mode additions will be investigating villains and being a villain.  If we get to mercenary stuff, that'll also be good.

I did add the honor/rank/title/etc. system in the hopes of eventually bestowing them on adventurers, and also allowing you to design/play with them in fort mode.  It's unclear when that'll happen.

Quote from: Walkaboutout
So, in the latest dev diary, there is much mention of wealth and currency as it relates to mercenary companies. Talk of upgrading gear with wealth, upkeep costs, etc.

How does this actually work? I've heard no talk (perhaps missed it, there is afterall, lots of info around) of the return of economy, so what exactly constitutes wealth at this point, in this context?

It didn't seem like Toady was referencing the barter that is generally the situation right now, so does anyone have more insight (perhaps from a FotF question I've missed) about how this will play out for the player in, say Fortress mode?

I'm curious to know if this system has an impact on the player in some meaningful way at this point; some fashion in which we can spend coins for things. By this I mean in some other way than the otherwise barter-trade type way we make use of stuff like that right now.

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923276#msg7923276

Yeah, there's a new 'account' number that abstractly keeps track of what kind of money/power/debt/favors etc. a person can pull.  This'll be fleshed out as we add more systems, but, as with the fort mode trading and existing partial worldgen economy, we can do a few this-or-thats economically when the need arises.  We're still hoping to get to a proper economy at some point after the property/status/etc. release (some portion of an economy is implicit in that release, with the larger scale trade/production stuff more depending on whether or not we remain sufficiently obsessed with boats.)

Quote from: Inarius
Do weapon mercenaries based of axes (for instance) only uses axes, or is it just a preference ?
Will we see bowmen mercenaries ?
Will we see animal-men mercenaries ?
Can a weapon (artifact) be worshiped ?

If they are dedicated, then their weapons are actually restricted.  Yeah, they can be purely dedicated to a single ranged weapon.

If an animal person population moves into a human or dwarf town as sometimes happens, I believe they are as eligible to become mercenaries as anybody.  I haven't seen one as a founder, but I wasn't logging creature types for the general members carefully.

We don't have artifact worship.  We were thinking about having the dedicated mercenaries at least attempt to buy/acquire artifacts of the type they like, but we didn't get there.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Will we see entire merc companies (up to the pop cap) visiting Fortress mode taverns, like performance troupes?

This seems like a reasonable possibility for the ones that don't have permanent forts.  I didn't get to my Mamertine bit yet where mercenary guests decide (on a whim?) to become hostile (Messana); this might be funny, though there'd need to be fair chances/safeguards for the cautious player.

Quote from: Egan_BW
Will we see the armies of regular civilizations getting those nice skill based titles as well as mercenaries? Would be neat to see royal guards with their own generated flowery titles (and above-average skills and equipment, maybe)

Not yet -- there are still no regular armies for civilizations.  Everybody is still just drafted, while there might be a "general" or the lords and their hearth people, the bulk of the battles are done by random civilians.  The mercenary groups use a "military organization" entity type, and part of the idea is to perhaps solve these problems in a satisfying way using a subgroup, but probably not now.  There's also the potential conflict with the militia commander/captain system from fort mode, which generally is too historical-figure-leaning and can't handle large numbers.

Quote from: Witty
Just to confirm, will other entities like bandit groups or possibly even civilizations disband properly once enough of their members have died out, like with mercenary bands?

I haven't changed any buggy death behavior etc. that existed.  There are some additional death checks in world gen, but I haven't exited world gen yet.

Quote from: terribleperson
Artifacts have gotten a lot of love with the update, and look like they're going to get more during the magic update. Related to artifacts, are there any plans to make the properties of procedurally generated megabeasts carry over into the materials they leave behind when they die or are butchered? Similarly, might bronze colossi and dragons leave behind less mundane materials?
It would be very neat for it to be possible to create artifacts or special/artifact items out of the remains of megabeasts, i.e. Leather armor with some of the material properties of brass from the skin of a Titan with small brass scales. I'd love to see a heirloom suit of armor made from the scales of a dragon someone's great-grandfather slew.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923729#msg7923729

The prototype does this a bit already, depending on who dies to make what pieces of the world, and I imagine it'll carry forward, since the 'sphere' associations with such creatures are often used when rolling up new systems/magic/etc.

Generally, materials already pass all of their mundane properties on to the stuff you make, since the material definition is the same (like bone) or derived (like leather), but yeah, there's extra room for the game to recognize and use the really important creatures and their subsequent products.

Quote from: Death Dragon
Got a question from Kram1032's comment on Kruggsmash's latest video:
What exactly did you change to fix the notorious bug that caused cats to die from alcohol poisoning after cleaning themselves? Did you change the amount of content there is in spatterings/smears of contamination in general or did you just change something about how it relates to body size?
The question came up because a well filled with vampire blood contaminated water didn't seem to infect people who drank from it and the comment assumed that it might be related to that bug fix.
Not calling it a bug though. I assume it just means that you require a higher concentration of vampire blood in the water in order to infect people.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923740#msg7923740
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923769#msg7923769
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923787#msg7923787
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923993#msg7923993

Yeah, my recollection is that all I needed to change was the ingestion amount they were taking in; the amount on the paws wasn't actually that high, maybe, but the ingestion function was being fed a larger inexact amount (since it hadn't mattered up to that point.)  My recollection could be wrong at this point, and I'd defer to earlier remarks if they are any more clear.

I don't think the amount matters with vampire blood, so that's perhaps a bug.

Quote from: Eric Blank
Toady; can mercenary organizations pass down secrets members have? Obviously that death cult didnt get access to the slab or writings about the secret of life and death, but if they do through some means, can that end up worked into their rhetoric the way worship and particular weapons/skills/roles does? Ive made a mod with tons of secrets that dont have reanimation effects, and often see for instance fire mage mercenaries visit my fort.

also, do these companies tend to hold onto artifacts? Im thinking kinda like the stories surrounding the IRL Templar; theyd amass great wealth, supposedly also valuable religious relics, and hoard much of it for themselves or use it to further their interests. What part of those should be viable to see in game?

Secrets:  They don't currently.  Performance troupes don't either.  All of them have a sort of domain-specific segmentation to their teaching.  This should all be softened, and it's certainly appropriate for necromancer death people to take that sort of thing into account, but I'm not sure how it's going to proceed.  If nothing happens before the magic release, certainly the new-and-varied teaching/organizational structure there will come into play.

Artifacts:  Villains do this.  We'd wanted the mercenaries interested in weapons to do so as well, according to the type.  But generally, the account-enabled organizations like mercenaries and merchant companies don't make such investments or take such treasures at the entity-level (they do at the personal level.)  It would make sense, and to the extent the villains are involved and part of company leadership, it'll feel like it sometimes, but there's still more to do.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1518 on: February 02, 2019, 12:12:46 am »

Thanks for all the answers toady now Iím even more excited for this release :)
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1519 on: February 02, 2019, 01:41:13 am »

Quote
I don't have additional data or explanations for the various community metrics.  The forum numbers don't feel *tremendously* different.  The 500-700 ranges for Januarys from 2012 to 2019 are pretty consistent; it has dropped a bit, and sometimes it dips into the 300s nowadays, but we had a 739 today, so I really have no idea.  The latest version downloads are currently around 60000 a month, and that's been consistent for the last five months according to these stats.  I don't have the older numbers on hand, but it doesn't strike me as different from what I've seen (and I have no idea how many of those downloads are "real".)

This topic has come up multiple times recently on the /r/dwarffortress subreddit, for some reason, people all a-panic that the Bay12Forum/Dwarf Fortress community is dying. I wonder what the origin of the concern is.

On the reddit side, which I can speak for as one of the moderators with access to usage numbers, our ~74k members and other unsubscribed readers are generating ~70k unique visitors and 601k to 1M+ page views per month, with a substantial positive subscription rate. They don't give us year over year data, only the previous year, but it doesn't look like a weakening community to me.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1520 on: February 02, 2019, 02:59:18 am »

Quote
I don't have additional data or explanations for the various community metrics.  The forum numbers don't feel *tremendously* different.  The 500-700 ranges for Januarys from 2012 to 2019 are pretty consistent; it has dropped a bit, and sometimes it dips into the 300s nowadays, but we had a 739 today, so I really have no idea.  The latest version downloads are currently around 60000 a month, and that's been consistent for the last five months according to these stats.  I don't have the older numbers on hand, but it doesn't strike me as different from what I've seen (and I have no idea how many of those downloads are "real".)

This topic has come up multiple times recently on the /r/dwarffortress subreddit, for some reason, people all a-panic that the Bay12Forum/Dwarf Fortress community is dying. I wonder what the origin of the concern is.

On the reddit side, which I can speak for as one of the moderators with access to usage numbers, our ~74k members and other unsubscribed readers are generating ~70k unique visitors and 601k to 1M+ page views per month, with a substantial positive subscription rate. They don't give us year over year data, only the previous year, but it doesn't look like a weakening community to me.

Seems plenty active to me, even the adventurer sub forum has more activity then it used to. Maybe some of the "concern" came from this post that somehow got upvotes?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/a9hf1j/the_bay12forums_community_is_slowly_dying_why_is/

Regardless discord and reddit are supplanting forums, so that could be one cause of perceived inactivity. And the moderators there say its more popular then ever.
Dwarf fortress has always been a niche game and donations just keep going up, DF is fine.

Also, i absolutely love adventure mode. And play it far more then i do fort mode so i am extremely excited.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 03:18:08 am by Untrustedlife »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1521 on: February 02, 2019, 05:03:26 am »

Nice replies, thank you Toady.

Its a pity i couldn't slip mine in earlier as the question came to me this morning in my mind, but "Are the militaristic mercenary groups viable candidates in the future for alternative starting fort scenarios, they seem pretty fleshed out compared to other groups in a self sufficient way besides say- a travelling band of minstrels" Auldsmen we still haven't got a lot of coverage of, we've seen traders, prophets, mercenaries but only the hints of the honest workers of the guilds.

A second tangental question towing the line of a suggestion i guess: "Will auldsmen also have favourite items contrary to their fluffily assigned 'jobs' that they specialise in or am i reading too much into it based of merc's?" here's to thinking contracting a guildmember with a penchant for scimitars (T&C's apply) could be put to work equipping your dwarves just by being a hired specialist to equip them with freshly forged arms, save them just being a tad useless apprenticeship workshop and maybe a background industrial presence in W.G but we'll see what comes out in devlogs i guess.

- At this rate, Toady might just release 'Bannerlord' before M&B dev's do.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1522 on: February 02, 2019, 06:36:29 am »

Quote
Generally, materials already pass all of their mundane properties on to the stuff you make, since the material definition is the same (like bone) or derived (like leather), but yeah, there's extra room for the game to recognize and use the really important creatures and their subsequent products.

Finding a legendary leather or scale armor from a dragon, well, it would be really a huge step in the game.

Thanks for the reply, Toady !
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1523 on: February 02, 2019, 07:01:00 am »

Thanks, Toady.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Well, gotta ask this one (just regarding the villains release):
Fortress Mode coups? Yea? Nay? Maybe?
He he he.
Nice.

Quote
Quote from: Death Dragon
I know there's no way for us to pay them without a proper economy, but can the player in any way interact with these new mercenary companies in fort mode?
Quote from: Thomasasia
How will players be able to interact with the mercenary groups in Fortress Mode?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923142#msg7923142
Death Dragon (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923167#msg7923167
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7923176#msg7923176

Ha ha, yeah, we were planning on a special announcement if you get attacked by one; even if it's a little more than you should know about them, it'd be a waste not to get those details out there.  Possible exception is if a lone mercenary (who is part of a company) sneaks into your fort on a job and completes it without being detected; you might not get either their or their company's identity immediately in that case.  But sending out an agent and getting the company identity and then finding a way up the chain is a core part of the planned game here.

To a larger possible point, it wooould be cool if you could hire them.  The trade depot broker does already track the currency value of goods, and there are those coins and everything; just because the proper economy is turned off doesn't mean there isn't already trading.  We're still considering this.  It would be funny if that were the only practical use for fort mode coins for a while, having a dwarf messenger hauling a pile of them off-screen with a job request (unless mercenaries do jobs on credit and you settle up later with a representative; at this point, *if* we get to this, it'll be whatever's easier to program.)  You could see every gold vein as a number of contracts, in coins per tile, if they aren't willing to take your golden figurines.
I love this. It delays the update release by a bit more, but man oh man would it be amazing to finally get some purpose for coins in fortress mode again.
Would still need a bunch of other work though of course. Can't wait until the update finally comes to the fort mode implementations.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1524 on: February 02, 2019, 11:51:25 am »

Im in the same mind as Death Dragon about the whole mercenary band thing, though being said i would hope that it can at the moment remain abstract from the visitor system so that off-site activities via messenger courier like Toady detailed are abstract. A bed for the night, and hospitality is worth itself and in a economy, only really benefits the inn-keeper to collect loose coppers & silvers for drinks in too meagre a way to justify putting economy functions back in proper without shaking them down for taxes which the coins should have gone to you anyway.

Unless of course, money demands and prices help respectively grease the slow turning wheels (taking ingame years) of the systems we already have in and around visitors and other mechanics.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1525 on: February 02, 2019, 04:19:13 pm »

Thanks for the answers!

Rather amused at villains having to gain funds to make a hide out. I am now imagining all those necromancers just sitting around in a grass field with hundreds of zombies, writing books about accounting, how to budget a building project, and debating whether or not raising the dead is tax-deductable (unfortunately, the latter will need to wait till the law and property arc :C ).

Super excited for the sites work :)

This topic has come up multiple times recently on the /r/dwarffortress subreddit, for some reason, people all a-panic that the Bay12Forum/Dwarf Fortress community is dying. I wonder what the origin of the concern is.

On the reddit side, which I can speak for as one of the moderators with access to usage numbers, our ~74k members and other unsubscribed readers are generating ~70k unique visitors and 601k to 1M+ page views per month, with a substantial positive subscription rate. They don't give us year over year data, only the previous year, but it doesn't look like a weakening community to me.

I suspect they must've started playing DF during a time period when there was a lot of activity, and are surprised at the lowered activity currently.

Having played DF for 10 years... People just come and go? Like, a whole bunch of people that were once teenagers are now adults that are spending time on adulting, people play DF in different ways, etc. I bet we're gonna see them super confused when there's going to be bugfix releases after a big release. ;)
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1526 on: February 02, 2019, 04:51:58 pm »

It's also important to remember that only a fraction of the people who play DF and support/fund its development are even an active part of its online community. Forums like this don't exactly give an accurate impression of the entirety of DF's playerbase. The most accurate measure we can have of DF's popularity IMO is level of donations, and as Untrustedlife says those just keep on going up.

Anyway, thanks for the answers as always Toady. Good luck on wrapping up the worldgen work this month.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 04:58:56 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1527 on: February 02, 2019, 08:56:17 pm »

Mm mmm, those are some tasty answers! I really hope that we get to mercenary interactions in fort and adventurer modes.
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terribleperson

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1528 on: February 03, 2019, 12:49:12 am »

Thank you for the answers, Toady. I'm pretty excited for mercenaries and villainous plots to be running around shaking things up.
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Aid

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1529 on: February 03, 2019, 08:07:24 am »

Hello Toadi, thank you for the questions and answers.Little question,will the mode of Legends change, now without utilities  hard

why dwarves are only defending, I thought that after the last release they will attack

I heard that you want to change the legends mode, is it possible to do so that in the games themselves they see how some of the known information is wobbling and when exporting there was all the information in XML

how do you think when the game is ready in your opinion

People have already started to think when magic and myths will come out in a special topic, you have a date when you want to get an update?

What is your development plan now? Release the villainous update, myths and magic in parts and then what will you do?
difficult
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 12:15:15 pm by Aid »
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