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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 445907 times)

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1545 on: February 06, 2019, 02:40:50 pm »

Have you considered allowing adventurers to put points into http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Appraiser at the start of the game, so that we can see goods prices in adventure mode? Or is there some mechanical blocker there?.
I suspect that the adventure mode trade interface isn't set up to display prices, but I'm not sure. (Perhaps modding an adventurer reaction that trains appraiser could shed some light on this.)
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1546 on: February 07, 2019, 02:10:56 am »

Also, this is less of a question and more of a comment:





Awesome job on the updates to the tomb generator for the artifact release, they look beautiful. Im excited to see how you improve them further :)
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1547 on: February 07, 2019, 03:53:33 am »

Will villains also organize prison breaks for agents they deem useful? Or for potentially useful blackmail victims too, I guess?

Also,

Will the prison sentence system be used for prisoners of war too, or do they get special rules?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 04:02:18 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1548 on: February 07, 2019, 06:51:41 am »

hm... So another devlog on incrimination, probably a devlog on histfigs discovering villainy and doing something about it, another for religious tension, another for worldgen executions and prisoner exchange, maybe worldgen hospitals... I see we're going to have a summer release :)

(I don't mind too much, as having villains but no law enforcement is a little ridiculous)
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1549 on: February 07, 2019, 07:17:18 am »

Well, we've come this far. May as well make it another year-long update. Throw in another for Improved Sieges (and worldgen army positions, heirarchy and whatever other fun worldgen needs for managing proper clashing armies) after patching up villains and stress.

Big Wait had better be really Big after building it up so much though. :D
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1550 on: February 07, 2019, 08:17:44 am »

hm...

How do you imagine the upcoming divine law to interact with civ ethics? Do you think it will override civ ethics, modified by civ ethics, or will civ ethics themselves be modified by divine law? Similarly, will Divine law only be what gods communicate to their followers, or will it also include laws from very practical knowledge like 'going into the forest at night will kill you'+'killing yourself is bad'='don't go into the forest at night, we'll imprison your instead'? Or will that be more of a later development?
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Flying Teasets

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1551 on: February 07, 2019, 09:07:04 am »

Will dwarven tunnels get attached aqueducts/cisterns/waterwells at some point?

Will waterwells become usable in adventure mode, and will drawing water from them be affected by entity ethics such as trespassing and theft?

With exile implemented, will entities with ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_EXILE be more likely to exile their members instead of beating or imprisoning, and will exiled members be counted as entity members or neutrals for the purposes of ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL?

Will entities gain master persuaders as law enforcers and use them to convert criminals if ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_REPRIMAND is enabled?

Adventure role: Thief on the development page describes several punishments acceptable to an entity with ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:ACCEPTABLE and adjacent; will entities with a low opinion of torture favor social punishments, imprisonment or exile over these?

Is a system for generating personal ethics based on character personality in the works?

Will scholar research topics unlock buildings, reactions and professions, and will the entity list of same define an entities starting knowledge instead of restricting it?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 09:16:18 am by Flying Teasets »
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1552 on: February 07, 2019, 09:14:03 am »

Quote
Will waterwells become usable in adventure mode, and will drawing water from them be affected by entity ethics such as trespassing and theft?
Water wells are already usable, you need to use U to interact with them. (Give that nearly nothing else uses U, I cannot blame you for not realizing this) No idea if it'll be considered theft, I suspect not as that would require a better sense of property, wouldn't it? And work on that is planned post mythgen.
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Flying Teasets

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1553 on: February 07, 2019, 09:19:51 am »

Quote
Will waterwells become usable in adventure mode, and will drawing water from them be affected by entity ethics such as trespassing and theft?
Water wells are already usable, you need to use U to interact with them. (Give that nearly nothing else uses U, I cannot blame you for not realizing this) No idea if it'll be considered theft, I suspect not as that would require a better sense of property, wouldn't it? And work on that is planned post mythgen.
Huh, thanks for telling me. Do they freeze during winter like the fortress versions?
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1554 on: February 07, 2019, 09:31:09 am »

Yes, but during winter you can 'G'et snow from the ground and put it in a waterskin, then light a fire(also with 'g'), and then use shift+I(advanced interaction) to select the water skin and heat it over the fire.

Due to snow falling everywhere, I suspect it is actually easier right now to get water in freezing areas right now than in non-freezing areas, though I haven't visited a freezing desert yet.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1555 on: February 07, 2019, 09:48:37 am »

Quote
though I haven't visited a freezing desert yet.

It's white


(don't thank me, it's free  8) )
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1556 on: February 07, 2019, 10:56:52 am »

I wonder what this new "religious tension" is actually going to look like. Riots are super interesting though. I hope they get into fort mode somehow. Having to assign separate temples because of intollerant religion followers starting fist fights?

Also, well, it turns out vampire wells do still work normally. That Kruggsmash video just didn't have enough goblin blood in it.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1557 on: February 07, 2019, 01:08:22 pm »

It amazes me with each new devlog how much of a leap this release is making towards player ability to tell actual, coherent stories that don't require a huge amount of subjective interpretation. We've still got a long way to go, of course, but all these new features are still awesome and way more than I ever expected we'd get in the game for a while yet to come.

Also really helps set the stage for mythgen, since it'll inevitably require more narrative mechanics than currently exist. I guess that's part of the point.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 01:14:04 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1558 on: February 07, 2019, 01:31:40 pm »

Interesting set of questions @Flying Teasets but i'll try and untangle some for you and Toady.

Will dwarven tunnels get attached aqueducts/cisterns/waterwells at some point?

Not sure where any specific references to this popped up, so i suppose its a suggestion rather than a question. You could say Toady might be open minded to establishing more infrastructure similar for a little cavern tunnelside temple/tavern hidey-hole once the easier above ground roadside sites are done but other projects like deep dwarves and underground architecture of a slightly grander scale are still waiting in devlist.

Time being you can just set up a Tavern in the caverns on a open plateau with a little wood log bridge from the road i suppose yourself.

So i think this really wouldn't be on the horizon until atleast after the terrain re-write and everything is quite comfy and the underground is regenerated to a more contemporary set of worldgen rules (which should hopefully improve chances of better architecture underground)

With exile implemented, will entities with ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_EXILE be more likely to exile their members instead of beating or imprisoning, and will exiled members be counted as entity members or neutrals for the purposes of ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL?

More active justice systems might lead to enforcement but that's for Toady to iron out, the drifters from fortress mode who are exiled inevitably go somewhere to do something. So we can only hope at some stage justice will be a more visible and impactful with petty crimes happening all the while so that 30 odd bored guards don't suddenly decide to give you (adventurer) beatings when you walk off with a sword and forget to pay for it.

Will entities gain master persuaders as law enforcers and use them to convert criminals if ETHIC:FOO:PUNISH_REPRIMAND is enabled?

Its been observed that with cheating to skill up a unit they can have legendary persuader and polarise the views of others, im not sure but being able to completely able to flip someone by pressing a arguement while berating them about crime, reinforcing the principles of truth, fairness and justice would be very powerful. So erm, maybe not the question but yes?

Adventure role: Thief on the development page describes several punishments acceptable to an entity with ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:ACCEPTABLE and adjacent; will entities with a low opinion of torture favor social punishments, imprisonment or exile over these?

Is a system for generating personal ethics based on character personality in the works?

To knock these on the head, PERSONAL_MATTER already affects input to ethics, and in the absence of the hardcoded ethics whether they enjoy it or not they might be obliged, by [SANCTIONED_ONLY] (player/leadership input) [REQUIRED] (obligatory) or have the ethical option suspended by use of [NOT_APPLICABLE] like how kobolds don't recognise theft conveniently for them.

There's not a lot of science, but on paper atleast, the ethic responsiblity will be passed onto the least queasy regarding the task unless absolutely nessecary. If you ask a elf to cut a tree, they most probably wont but its not a ethic crime either to do it.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1559 on: February 07, 2019, 02:36:37 pm »

I wonder what this new "religious tension" is actually going to look like. Riots are super interesting though. I hope they get into fort mode somehow. Having to assign separate temples because of intollerant religion followers starting fist fights?
I suspect religious organizations will be able to have enemies much like civs can, and then direct their followers towards attacking those. Or if someone profanes a temple, then all of the followers will be offended, and the profaners' friends get involved, and then a riot breaks out.

It amazes me with each new devlog how much of a leap this release is making towards player ability to tell actual, coherent stories that don't require a huge amount of subjective interpretation. We've still got a long way to go, of course, but all these new features are still awesome and way more than I ever expected we'd get in the game for a while yet to come.

Also really helps set the stage for mythgen, since it'll inevitably require more narrative mechanics than currently exist. I guess that's part of the point.
The usual complaint about bad open world games is that they feel 'empty and dead'. For my current world, adventure mode feels 'alive but empty', which I think is super impressive all things considered. I am wondering to what extend this update will make things feel less empty though, like, on one hand there's more happening, but one of the things that frustrates me is that it's kind of hard to converse with given histfigs. Like, going up to a refugee it's really hard to ask them why they're fleeing, where they're heading, or even how they feel about having to flee. Nor can I ask about where the army is, or where anyone relevant is.

And I suspect that this is also partially caused by the knowledge inheritance relationship between entity and histfig not being great yet, which wouldn't be addressed until the law release. But in the meantime, I hope to see a bit more improvement to the conversation system so I can discover legends stuff as an adventurer, and you know, actually make a difference. (Last time I 'made a difference' was when I recruited heartspeople from a town that was being attacked, which meant that the town didn't have enough militia commanders and thus they got conquered two weeks later. Funny, but not intentional.)
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