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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 356891 times)

Beag

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1785 on: March 28, 2019, 05:53:21 pm »

1. How much do you think Dwarf Fortress will cost on steam?
2. With the switch from ascii to graphics will there be any graphics for what a creature is wearing? I ask this because it breaks my immersion a little to see a creature visually wearing one thing then when I check on them with the look command I find out they are wearing something else.
3. Will steam mods for Dwarf Fortress need to have graphics?
4. Will there be any indicator on the steam workshop for if mods are incompatible with each other or will we just need to test it out by running the game and seeing if it crashes?
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1786 on: March 28, 2019, 06:04:07 pm »

1. How much do you think Dwarf Fortress will cost on steam?
2. With the switch from ascii to graphics will there be any graphics for what a creature is wearing? I ask this because it breaks my immersion a little to see a creature visually wearing one thing then when I check on them with the look command I find out they are wearing something else.
3. Will steam mods for Dwarf Fortress need to have graphics?
4. Will there be any indicator on the steam workshop for if mods are incompatible with each other or will we just need to test it out by running the game and seeing if it crashes?


1. 19.99$
2. To some extent yes, the details are not yet set though (seems we'll at the very least have accurate sprites for armor and weapons). Meph and Mayday (the guys making the tileset) have a thread up in the modding section with more details/discussion/feedback on it if you're interested.
3. There'll be an option to use either tileset graphics or ascii for the steam version, so nope.

No idea on the fourth one.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1787 on: March 28, 2019, 09:56:05 pm »

1. How much do you think Dwarf Fortress will cost on steam?
2. With the switch from ascii to graphics will there be any graphics for what a creature is wearing? I ask this because it breaks my immersion a little to see a creature visually wearing one thing then when I check on them with the look command I find out they are wearing something else.
3. Will steam mods for Dwarf Fortress need to have graphics?
4. Will there be any indicator on the steam workshop for if mods are incompatible with each other or will we just need to test it out by running the game and seeing if it crashes?


1. 19.99$
2. To some extent yes, the details are not yet set though (seems we'll at the very least have accurate sprites for armor and weapons). Meph and Mayday (the guys making the tileset) have a thread up in the modding section with more details/discussion/feedback on it if you're interested.
3. There'll be an option to use either tileset graphics or ascii for the steam version, so nope.

No idea on the fourth one.
4 would be the same as any other game. Mod creator will let you know if it's compatible or not. Only they know. Expect total overhaul mods to probably not be.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1788 on: March 29, 2019, 10:20:19 am »

Ah, but that does raise a different interesting question:

What kind of fallback mechanisms are you considering for situations in which unique graphics won't be possible, such as mods?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1789 on: March 29, 2019, 04:47:13 pm »

Ah, but that does raise a different interesting question:

What kind of fallback mechanisms are you considering for situations in which unique graphics won't be possible, such as mods?
Ascii mods will still be Ascii. Steam version comes with Ascii tileseset (and is exactly the same, except with the new tileseset, sounds and music).
Mods with graphics will use graphics made by the modder.
Same as now, right?
What kind of situation were you thinking of?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1790 on: March 29, 2019, 04:58:40 pm »

Lots has been said about the new graphics support you're adding, so:
Will the sound and music be completely moddable too? How will sound effects work? Are they defined for every action in the game, like a whole page of raws for editing as we like? Or as a tag we call from existing raws (which we could add to modded in reactions or combat attacks)?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1791 on: March 30, 2019, 02:49:43 am »

I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
- A wider selection of dyes, especially with a wider color palette for the game itself.
Is this something you intend to address before the commercial version launches (e.g. in conjunction with military uniform UI overhaul), or something that would be addressed when (and if) the issue appears? It's not on my top priority list, but I suspect not dealing with it will have a negative impact on DF reception at launch.

The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1792 on: March 30, 2019, 08:01:08 am »

- A wider selection of dyes

I think we already have what we need - Red Green Blue.  All that is needed is reactions to mix, oh and Silver Dye (sic) to become an alpha layer.  :P
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1793 on: March 30, 2019, 08:25:24 am »

- A wider selection of dyes

I think we already have what we need - Red Green Blue.  All that is needed is reactions to mix, oh and Silver Dye (sic) to become an alpha layer.  :P

Ah... did you know that the colors assigned to the Red, Green and Blue in DF aren't actually red, green and blue, but rather,
red, emerald and midnight blue? And sliver barb dye is black.

Furthermore, pigments mix subtractively, that is, if you mix them you end up with black. Which is why typically the mixing colors are the bright cyan, magenta and yellow, (though if you're going medieval, it's vermillion red, lemon yellow and ultramarine blue, the reason why we use cyan instead of ultramarine is 1. Ultramarine is made from lapis lazuli, which is expensive, and 2. getting green from cyan+yellow is easier in an abstracted mathematical 3 channel model, where getting green from ultramarine+yellow requires spectral color maths.) Even further, DF has a limited color list to get fancypants color names? So to simulate, the reactions would require multiplying the channels of each color in a pigment and then finding the closest color in the color list.

I'm sorry if you knew this already :D
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1794 on: March 30, 2019, 09:22:09 am »

I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
- A wider selection of dyes, especially with a wider color palette for the game itself.
Is this something you intend to address before the commercial version launches (e.g. in conjunction with military uniform UI overhaul), or something that would be addressed when (and if) the issue appears? It's not on my top priority list, but I suspect not dealing with it will have a negative impact on DF reception at launch.

The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
Did they reach a conclusion in the public thread? There was some discussion, but the main argument from Meph seemed to be that they won't do it (except for military) for the exact reasons you've listed here (not enough dyes, too many combos, more confusing than vanilla colour coded professions, etc).
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feelotraveller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1795 on: March 30, 2019, 09:37:22 am »

I'm sorry if you knew this already :D

Oh, I get that.

Mainly I was having a bit of fun. 

Anyway when playing DF we are not looking at mixed-pigments painted on a canvas but rather light emissions of rgb diodes and here the rules for combination are somewhat different.

More seriously I was suggesting that we don't need more dyes but only the reactions needed to create mixtures and these can pull arbitrary RRGGBBAA codes out of the computers, um..., matrix.  Whether this ever happens or not is up to Toady and/or modders but it certainly won't be limited by or dictated to by the requirements of painters and printers.  ;)  Sheesh they could even be arbitrary procgen's and vary from worldgen to worldgen after the magic update.  (And yep, far too trivial to be taken seriously...)

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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1796 on: March 30, 2019, 12:33:11 pm »

I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.
- A wider selection of dyes, especially with a wider color palette for the game itself.
Is this something you intend to address before the commercial version launches (e.g. in conjunction with military uniform UI overhaul), or something that would be addressed when (and if) the issue appears? It's not on my top priority list, but I suspect not dealing with it will have a negative impact on DF reception at launch.

The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
Did they reach a conclusion in the public thread? There was some discussion, but the main argument from Meph seemed to be that they won't do it (except for military) for the exact reasons you've listed here (not enough dyes, too many combos, more confusing than vanilla colour coded professions, etc).
As far as I understood the direction was a clothing display with a sash color to indicate labor (and possibly pip's or something to indicate skill level). I finished reading the thread about 24 hours ago, so new posts have probably been added since, but the clothing discussion had died down at that point.

As to the discussion of generation of colors by mixing, that only works if it is mixing before dyeing, a reaction that currently doesn't exist, rather than adding basically non transparent layers on top of each other (and the additive/subtractive issue, plus the sLIver barb dye color [see wiki page]). Meph and Mike defended different viewpoints, but yes, my understanding was that it'd be clothing.
(If it would remain profession based, it would be more useful if the profession displayed was selected among the enabled ones, so you could see that your legendary Cheese Maker you've given the furnace operation duty is shown with that [dabbling] profession, but that would require the profession field to be checked for change on job allocation changes rather than on job skill changes).
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Flying Teasets

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1797 on: March 30, 2019, 01:11:58 pm »

I've read through the thread on the new tile sets, and seen that it appears clothing will be reflected on the characters. I expect that will result in a more or less immediate demand for control over clothing in Fortress Mode in the form of:
- Control over which types of clothing characters use (both in the "I refuse to play a game where guys wear dresses" vein and in the "I want different groups to wear different clothing as per my instructions" style), as well as the color of their clothing.

The reason I've made this a question rather than a suggestion is that it's tied to the commercial launch, and so is time constrained.
The law and customs update might handle gender roles and gendered clothing. Ceding control of development goals to butthurt bigots on steam would be a dumb idea.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1798 on: March 30, 2019, 01:34:44 pm »

And outside of that, the official view on those dresses is that they're full length tunics(as opposed to the regular tunic or the shorter shirt) rather than women's clothing specifically. (The differences between, say, a kirtle, and a ionic chiton is primarily in the cut and whether it has a taille and that in turn is something that has shown up in mens' clothing as well, Italian suits come to mind. Either way, it's not something that DF considers anyhow.)

Though, getting culture appropriate clothes will be fun, especially as some cultures will proceed to have a bronze-age aesthetic where it is a-okay to run around naked: it's warm enough anyway. Cue dozens of bugreports :p
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 01:43:39 pm by therahedwig »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1799 on: March 30, 2019, 04:50:50 pm »

I don't really care about those who demand gender specific clothing, but I think that's something that can be achieved easily if desired with a functionality that allows you to define what each dorf and group of dorfs wear for easier grouping, identification, and aesthetic reasons, and it seems color coordination and playing dress-up are fairly popular occupations.

Given that I don't think we've seen the end of clothing issues, butt naked dorfs (as well as dorfs with naked butts) will probably not be uncommon until the clothing replacement logic is changed to drop only when picking up (which will cause issues with militia upgrades), and I don't expect that to be in scope until well after Myth & Magic. I believe someone deliberately tried to spread the idea that being naked was nothing to be ashamed of through the library in a fortress in order to cut down on clothing production (and subsequent disposal), but I think that was before the needs rewrite.
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