Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 120 121 [122] 123 124 ... 165

Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 469916 times)

Criperum

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1815 on: April 01, 2019, 04:36:27 am »

Thanks for the answers!

I was actually waiting for something like "Ha! It was a long standing 1 April joke!" but it didn't happen.
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1816 on: April 01, 2019, 07:38:24 am »

Quote
I suppose even clicking on the set of verbs and objects etc. might be kind of neat, or choosing which concepts to emphasize during a creation, etc.  It would be kind of funny to play in a world over a sequence of forts/etc. and always know that you were personally responsible for one of the threads of creation, especially if it comes up somehow.
Sounds great fun. This please.
Logged

zakarum

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1817 on: April 02, 2019, 03:26:20 am »

Thank you for the answers Toady.

Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?
I will give an example: I own a few games on GoG that have steam workshop integration. In a lot of cases the modders don't provide a external link to the mod which leaves me in the awkward situation of needing to pirate mods for a game I own. There's even the possibility that external downloaders such as steamworkshop downloader do not work. If you think that's a rare problem, there's even sites such as <removed> that exist solely for the purpose of pirating mods because some of us own the games on GoG or other platforms (examples of this are Stellaris, Project Zomboid, Starbound, Kenshi, Surviving Mars, among others).
I understand your decision to opt for Steam Workshop integration but you are running the risk of making your consumers in Itch.io into second-class consumers. I also know you have no responsibility in regards to where modders choose to upload their mods, but you can create the walled garden that allows it to happen in the first place. So what's your take on this?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 11:51:01 pm by Toady One »
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1818 on: April 02, 2019, 04:19:53 am »

Thank you for the answers Toady.

Are you worried/have you given any thought about the the Steam Workshop creating a walled garden and splitting the modding community?
I will give an example: I own a few games on GoG that have steam workshop integration. In a lot of cases the modders don't provide a external link to the mod which leaves me in the awkward situation of needing to pirate mods for a game I own. There's even the possibility that external downloaders such as steamworkshop downloader do not work. If you think that's a rare problem, there's even sites such as <removed> that exist solely for the purpose of pirating mods because some of us own the games on GoG or other platforms (examples of this are Stellaris, Project Zomboid, Starbound, Kenshi, Surviving Mars, among others).
I understand your decision to opt for Steam Workshop integration but you are running the risk of making your consumers in Itch.io into second-class consumers. I also know you have no responsibility in regards to where modders choose to upload their mods, but you can create the walled garden that allows it to happen in the first place. So what's your take on this?
Someone asked this in Reddit. The answer is, as I recall,  basically, it's the modder's responsibility (better search for the exact quote). If they choose not to share their mod with everyone there's not much anyone can do about it

As a community, we should encourage anyone uploading interesting mods solely to Steam to share with the rest of the players. It's the same game, all mods are compatible, so there's really no reason it shouldn't be shared at DFFD too. Unless the aim is to deliberately not share. And then, again, not Toady's fault.

The Crusader Kings community seems to have managed this for several years, with all major mods available on the forum.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 11:51:15 pm by Toady One »
Logged

zakarum

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1819 on: April 02, 2019, 06:49:29 am »

Though to be fair, Crusader Kings 2 is a steam exclusive game. It needs Steam and it's not available without it anywhere else. It would be very unlikely that it shared this problem. As I said, it's not really the developer's responsibility for what people choose to do, but it's the developers responsibility that this was enabled as Workshop integration is his choice.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 06:51:12 am by zakarum »
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1820 on: April 02, 2019, 07:11:46 am »

Though to be fair, Crusader Kings 2 is a steam exclusive game. It needs Steam and it's not available without it anywhere else. It would be very unlikely that it shared this problem. As I said, it's not really the developer's responsibility for what people choose to do, but it's the developers responsibility that this was enabled as Workshop integration is his choice.
It used to be on GOG. But all the mods are shared on the forum, so it didn't become a problem. And it's still the case that the mods are all shared on the forum on the developer's site, not just Steam.
We already have a healthy modding community with mods that have been kept up to date for years and years. Yes, Meph and Taffer and all the long-term modders might all get together one drunken night and say "lets screw the community, that would be funny". But it's not really likely, is it? It's completely possible as a community to manage that mods are shared. Besides Steam Workshop is one of the main selling points. The point is to sell the game and make money, remember? Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.

So, anyway, how much is this actually a problem? Mods not on Steam will all work on the Steam version, but can it be done the other way around? Are mods all kept in a cloud someplace away from the game files? I don't know how it works.

Oh, and I guess, taking this over to the Steam thread might be a good idea.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 07:14:50 am by Shonai_Dweller »
Logged

zakarum

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1821 on: April 02, 2019, 07:17:16 am »

Crusader Kings 2 was never on GOG. None of the new generation Paradox games were except Stellaris and EU:Rome recently. It used to be on Gamersgate and that was before workshop integration. With it the GG version was discontinued. That's why that problem never happened with Crusader Kings 2: Workshop killed the alternative versions.

Quote
Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.
So you expect the modding scene to all take off to Steam since it would be a shoot in the foot to leave it in the forums? Interesting.

Regardless,  I'm not saying it is a problem, I'm raising it as a potential problem that might split the community. It's in the realm of possibility and it happened before.
The main selling point as far as I understood was the graphics, sound and accessibility. If the whole point was workshop access it would become a Steam exclusive. I just raised the question, to Toady, if he considered that possibility and how much of a problem it would be if it happened. If he wants Workshop so bad then it could be a Steam-exclusive game, sure, it's his game. What I raised is the potential for the creation of second-class consumers, even though all consumers should be treated the same. With this new direction there's also new responsibilities to people and people who buy in Itch.io shouldn't be expected to be treated as a second-class consumer.

I'm not interest in yours or anyone else opinion on this, just his. So I disagree that it belongs in the "steam thread".

« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 07:21:09 am by zakarum »
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1822 on: April 02, 2019, 07:22:29 am »

Crusader Kings 2 was never on GOG. None of the new generation Paradox games were except Stellaris and EU:Rome recently. It used to be on Gamersgate and that was before workshop integration. With it the GG version was discontinued. That's why that problem never happened with Crusader Kings 2: Workshop killed the alternative versions.

Quote
Not enabling Steam Workshop on a game which people love to mod and use mods with is just shooting yourself in the foot.
So you expect the modding scene to all take off to Steam since it would be a shoot in the foot to leave it in the forums? Interesting.

Regardless,  I'm not saying it is a problem, I'm raising it as a potential problem that might split the community. It's in the realm of possibility and it happened before.
The main selling point as far as I understood was the graphics, sound and accessibility. If the whole point was workshop access it would become a Steam exclusive. I just raised the question, to Toady, if he considered that possibility and how much of a problem it would be if it happened. I'm not interest in yours or anyone else opinion on this, just his.
And he answered it already in the Reddit Q&A. As I said.
(Incidentally, no, that's not what I said at all).

--edit
15 seconds of Google-fu later...

Do you think the modders on the workshop will take resposibility in keeping mods accessible to people on the free/itch.io version? I know for a fact that some people really dislike steam so I wouldn't like to think that accessibility would have some unexpected drawbacks (say, people only posting on steam, making steam the only viable way of playing modded DF).

TarnAdams

·
18 days ago
The thing about responsibility is that it's an individual thing if you don't try to enforce it, I guess, so really, it's up to the modders. We'll have an open format. A mod that works in one place will work in another in principle, though Workshop is meant I think to streamline the installation process. But we have a huge modding forum over at Bay 12 that isn't going anywhere, so if somebody has, say a creatures.txt mod that they post there, it can be used anywhere, even if they also put it on Workshop. My txt files are all explicitly public domain -- I didn't gpl them or anything, so if somebody restricts their mod, that's their own thing. If somebody wants to post it everywhere, that's great, and of course it is nice when people share! If this does somehow lead to a concentration of mods on Steam, I'm not sure how to avoid that. But DF itself is always going to have a free version, and people that are into that will mod with that in mind.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 07:34:38 am by Shonai_Dweller »
Logged

Manveru Taurënér

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1823 on: April 02, 2019, 07:39:12 am »

Was in the r/gamedev AMA actually, in case anyone wants the link ^^
Logged

zakarum

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1824 on: April 02, 2019, 08:02:54 am »

And just like crusader kings 2 was never on GoG, that's not what I asked either.

The Reddit question is asking if he thinks that modders in steam will provide non-walled version of their mods.
I'm asking if he has given any thought and his opinions on the community splitting potential of his decision of doing Workshop and the possibility of that turn other consumers in second class consumers
 
One is about modders and their own choices.The other is about Toady and his choice and responsibilities. How on earth does one answer the other and in what language are they the same?
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1825 on: April 02, 2019, 08:27:37 am »

Yes, multiple fora will result in a split of the modding scene to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure there are going to be people who'll only know about the Steam workshop and post there exclusively, as well as many who'd only know to look there. I, for one, am not going to post anything there (I don't think you could if you haven't bought this specific game there), but provide it over here, so anyone who'd want to use it would have to grab it here.

I have little knowledge of how the Steam Workshop works, but if there were guidelines that actively encouraged making anything posted there available for access to people having other versions of the game, and guides on how to do that, it would probably help (I have no idea how hard Valve tries to block competition out, or what visible means they'll use for that purpose, though).
Logged

EternalCaveDragon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1826 on: April 02, 2019, 01:33:46 pm »

I'm asking if he has given any thought and his opinions on the community splitting potential of his decision of doing Workshop and the possibility of that turn other consumers in second class consumers
 
One is about modders and their own choices.The other is about Toady and his choice and responsibilities. How on earth does one answer the other and in what language are they the same?

Yes, multiple fora will result in a split of the modding scene to a greater or lesser extent. I'm sure there are going to be people who'll only know about the Steam workshop and post there exclusively, as well as many who'd only know to look there. I, for one, am not going to post anything there (I don't think you could if you haven't bought this specific game there), but provide it over here, so anyone who'd want to use it would have to grab it here.

I have little knowledge of how the Steam Workshop works, but if there were guidelines that actively encouraged making anything posted there available for access to people having other versions of the game, and guides on how to do that, it would probably help (I have no idea how hard Valve tries to block competition out, or what visible means they'll use for that purpose, though).

As a dabbler in the use of Steam Workshop as a platform for modding, no, the files aren't kept separate until needed, at least in the case of some games. Some will in fact appear on your computer itself, though they may require a bit of digging to find the mod you want due to how the files are named by the Workshop compared to a separate upload. I remember hearing that somewhere but I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement across different games.

Anyway, provided the mod's file structure is compatible between versions of the game which it seems will be the case judging by quotes, then there really shouldn't be any difference between posting to the Workshop or posting to DFFD. The game would read files from both/either the same way and Steam plays well with mods not from the Workshop in my personal experience. So mixing and matching mods regardless of upload location shouldn't matter too much. All depends on where the individual players want to look, which means it's the players' prerogative whether or not they access certain mods.

In conclusion, it really is up to the modders themselves and only them whether or not they post to one or the other or both. It's not the Adams' or Kitfox's responsibility to ensure mods exist on both platforms, regardless of whether or not certain members of the community believe they should. Plus, it's too early to make any predictions anyhow as to the impact since the game itself isn't out on Steam or itch yet so we don't know for sure how people will react.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 01:44:11 pm by EternalCaveDragon »
Logged

zakarum

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1827 on: April 02, 2019, 03:31:49 pm »

Quote
In conclusion, it really is up to the modders themselves and only them whether or not they post to one or the other or both.
But that's not the question here now is it? I'm not even debating how the Workshop works - just the fact that being a walled garden that the developer chooses they can end up creating, with other people's choices, a walled garden that makes other consumers into second-class consumers.

Quote
But it's the modder's choice!
I'd appreciate if people would stop trying to swerve the question in this direction. That's not what I asked. I appreciate the efforts to try and answer my question but so far I only got misinterpretation and some moving to another (albeit similar) topic.

Which leads to one of the problems that FotF has in recent times, in my opinion. As Toady enable more and more people to help him answering questions, a lot of time the people who usually reply - empowered by Toady using their replies - end up gate-keeping the thread and trying to interpret the word of Toady (or what he thinks) like this was theological discussion. And we go off-topic with that.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 03:34:54 pm by zakarum »
Logged

Manveru Taurënér

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1828 on: April 02, 2019, 04:15:18 pm »

Which leads to one of the problems that FotF has in recent times, in my opinion. As Toady enable more and more people to help him answering questions, a lot of time the people who usually reply - empowered by Toady using their replies - end up gate-keeping the thread and trying to interpret the word of Toady (or what he thinks) like this was theological discussion. And we go off-topic with that.

People have always been allowed to help answer questions, only difference is that he started linking to said answers too if he felt they answered the question, rather than just skipping the question (and noting the people who answered stuff at the top of the post). Not sure I agree with your view that there's any gatekeeping going on, I'd hope all proxy answers are born from simply wanting to help whoever asked something and/or make Toady's job easier (though as with anything on the internet the urge to want to be right can easily take hold), and no one is stopped from disagreeing with an answers validity (like you're doing now) or clarifying their question if they feel something was misunderstood . Not sure if any guidelines could be made that would make much of a difference, linking quotes is always better than trying to answer from memory of course (unless it's a yes/no or equally easy question, but probably even then), which wasn't really the case here though. Personally can't quite tell what isn't answered of your question with that quote either so trying to explain it further somehow would probably be a good idea, unless all this bickering has explained it enough for Toady to hopefully get the gist of it.
Logged

EternalCaveDragon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1829 on: April 02, 2019, 05:22:01 pm »

But that's not the question here now is it? I'm not even debating how the Workshop works - just the fact that being a walled garden that the developer chooses they can end up creating, with other people's choices, a walled garden that makes other consumers into second-class consumers.

I think I know where my personal misunderstanding was. And again I find your argument fallacious. I was specifically stating what barriers there are from the Steam side, of which there are none, because I've seen said lack of barriers for myself. But I believe you're talking about barriers from outside the Workshop. Now here's why I find your argument fallacious: assumption for the worse. You're assuming that every single mod creator on the Workshop will only post to the Workshop. You're also assuming every single mod on the Workshop will be desirable by the wider community, the appeal of a mod is subjective. Not every mod/utility for DF that's out there gets downloaded by the whole community. Not everyone uses the Lazy Newb Pack or DFHack. Plus, if someone ends up being interested in a certain mod that's available only on the Workshop at that time, they in all probability either downloaded the Steam version of DF already or they will ask the creator if they could post it to DFFD. Which with enough demand some might actually do. Not every modder of the Steam version will be aware of DFFD at first, that's an impossible ask due to the new players (and thus modders) the Steam release will attract.

And above all, it all lies with the modders themselves how available they make their mods. I highly doubt it is intentional to create any barriers to access to mods, and to lay responsibility for that at the feet of the developer is a bit of a reach if you ask me since they have no control over the modding community's choices. And to say anyone who doesn't download the Steam version will become a "second-class consumer" is just as fallacious because it's based on the assumptions above. Plus it comes off as trying to start a fight before the Steam release has even happened.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 120 121 [122] 123 124 ... 165