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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 549119 times)

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2190 on: July 02, 2019, 02:52:57 am »

Thanks for the answers Toady

Quote from: squamous
I am wondering, what happens if you generate a world without any procedurally generated demons, but create custom creatures which will inhabit that layer instead? Say, I made my own demonic race that inhabited layer 5 of the underground, would they spawn in the place of demons (and alongside goblins assuming they are present) or are procedurally generated demons an absolute requirement for hellish takeovers of civilizations?
Quote from: toadyone
In the current version, FEATURE_BEAST, TITAN, DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON are restricted tags, and in order for there to be demons, the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tags are used. It might break something horribly if I allow them and modders use them, but I've gone ahead and allowed it anyway.

I think it would be a great opportunity for the modding community to flex their muscles and get a taste of maybe what is to come regarding myth and magic if they could play with the restricted fields a little bit. Writing in your own demon's out of the kind of community creations that probably deserve that praise like the work of ZM5's very unnatural sets of monsters.
  • I've heard of modifications that drop pseudo demon creatures into the same inhabited layer in the underworld via subterranean biome depth leading into a battle royale against crazed demons much of the time in a effort to pad the place out a bit so i do think there's a underlying want from the community for it.
If such a scenario did occur with freedom to write demons on file (at own risk obviously), would we see mainstream integration of tags like [DEMON] on lesser creatures such as fire imps with a bit more context on what defines a demonic leader vs small fry like them by using [POWER] on file, versus other definitions of player created ambient wildlife and intelligent races  that may be demonic themselves?

Summoning a fire imp from a slab would be pretty sucky for the effort to generate it, but summoning multiple vaguely loyal fire imps in a fight from a incantation depending on the attributive cost might actually not be so bad
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2191 on: July 02, 2019, 04:44:18 am »

Thanks for the answers Toady

Quote from: squamous
I am wondering, what happens if you generate a world without any procedurally generated demons, but create custom creatures which will inhabit that layer instead? Say, I made my own demonic race that inhabited layer 5 of the underground, would they spawn in the place of demons (and alongside goblins assuming they are present) or are procedurally generated demons an absolute requirement for hellish takeovers of civilizations?
Quote from: toadyone
In the current version, FEATURE_BEAST, TITAN, DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON are restricted tags, and in order for there to be demons, the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tags are used. It might break something horribly if I allow them and modders use them, but I've gone ahead and allowed it anyway.

I think it would be a great opportunity for the modding community to flex their muscles and get a taste of maybe what is to come regarding myth and magic if they could play with the restricted fields a little bit. Writing in your own demon's out of the kind of community creations that probably deserve that praise like the work of ZM5's very unnatural sets of monsters.
  • I've heard of modifications that drop pseudo demon creatures into the same inhabited layer in the underworld via subterranean biome depth leading into a battle royale against crazed demons much of the time in a effort to pad the place out a bit so i do think there's a underlying want from the community for it.
If such a scenario did occur with freedom to write demons on file (at own risk obviously), would we see mainstream integration of tags like [DEMON] on lesser creatures such as fire imps with a bit more context on what defines a demonic leader vs small fry like them by using [POWER] on file, versus other definitions of player created ambient wildlife and intelligent races  that may be demonic themselves?

Summoning a fire imp from a slab would be pretty sucky for the effort to generate it, but summoning multiple vaguely loyal fire imps in a fight from a incantation depending on the attributive cost might actually not be so bad

I assume the DEMON and UNIQUE_DEMON tokens have already been set to no longer be restricted, so they won’t be in the upcoming version. Exactly how they work, however, ever Toady seems to not fully know. It will likely be chaotic or maybe it won’t. We (the modders) will have to figure that out.

Either way the system will be reworked fully during the Big Wait, so I don’t think any changes to it will be done before that.

PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2192 on: July 02, 2019, 04:49:11 am »

Thanks for the answers, Toady. :)
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2193 on: July 02, 2019, 06:39:47 am »

Thanks Toady!

Especially for opening up those tags. ;D
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2194 on: July 02, 2019, 11:31:16 am »

If you really did open up those tags for the next version, that is incredible and I love it! Been making demons for players to summon/transform into anyway, but now they can actually be treated as such by the game.

I wonder if demon is like crazed and makes them hostile to everything. Hmm, maybe not smart to summon those...
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FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2195 on: July 03, 2019, 04:02:00 pm »

If I understood it well, Dwarf Fortress is currently "three-games-in-one", because each one of them has different mechanisms. For implementing the new villain features, you begun to modify worldgen in first place, after that you'll change some adventure mode things and in last place you'll do the same in fortress mode.
However, I suppose in th future "three games" could melt in one and you could modify anything in worldgen that would make changes directly into adventure and fortress modes (it would be ideal).
So, these are my cuestions:
In what degree are the three games currently connected at the development level?
What elements of the world generation could be reflected in both modes automatically after their modification?
And is it possible to achieve a definitive fusion that could in a way facilitate your work?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2196 on: July 03, 2019, 05:33:57 pm »

If I understood it well, Dwarf Fortress is currently "three-games-in-one", because each one of them has different mechanisms. For implementing the new villain features, you begun to modify worldgen in first place, after that you'll change some adventure mode things and in last place you'll do the same in fortress mode.
However, I suppose in th future "three games" could melt in one and you could modify anything in worldgen that would make changes directly into adventure and fortress modes (it would be ideal).
So, these are my cuestions:
In what degree are the three games currently connected at the development level?
What elements of the world generation could be reflected in both modes automatically after their modification?
And is it possible to achieve a definitive fusion that could in a way facilitate your work?

The main reason World Gen, Fortress Mode, and Adventure Mode require different coding is because of their scales. World Gen is on the global scale and typically spans centuries of history that has to actually get done in a somewhat reasonable time, meaning the mechanics have to be somewhat simplified and abstracted. As far as I understand, the activated world (i.e. what's happening in the world outside of the vicinity of the adventurer or fortress) is similar to the world gen history, but has to take more complicated data structures generated during play into consideration, and can also afford to have a higher level of detail/complexity because of the slower rate (rather than spending 5 minutes generating each year of history, a year's worth of history in game play is generated in the background over the course of hours).
Differences between Adventure Mode and Fortress Mode are required both because they operate on different time scales and as well as with different focus (a single adventurer -> party versus a fortress entity), although some mechanics can be and have been merged to some extent, and I believe it's a goal to make much of those mechanics (such as crafting) essentially the same in both modes so that introduction of something new can apply to both modes more or less as a result of being introduced and then following the standard template. It can also be noted that the third mode, Legends Mode, isn't the same as World Gen, but rather World Gen PLUS whatever happens during the period fortresses and adventurers are played in the world, both in the background and as a result of player actions.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2197 on: July 04, 2019, 02:29:56 am »

If you really did open up those tags for the next version, that is incredible and I love it! Been making demons for players to summon/transform into anyway, but now they can actually be treated as such by the game.

I wonder if demon is like crazed and makes them hostile to everything. Hmm, maybe not smart to summon those...

That was kind of the direction my question was going towards, differences between on-file entities and usual demons, as incase we don't recieve a fire imp (I mean if the tag can be applied, why not?) tower lord without supporting tags in the usual context of "Oh this creature has [POWER]" rather than the sole arguement of being demonic.
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2198 on: July 04, 2019, 03:57:54 am »

If you really did open up those tags for the next version, that is incredible and I love it! Been making demons for players to summon/transform into anyway, but now they can actually be treated as such by the game.

I wonder if demon is like crazed and makes them hostile to everything. Hmm, maybe not smart to summon those...

That was kind of the direction my question was going towards, differences between on-file entities and usual demons, as incase we don't recieve a fire imp (I mean if the tag can be applied, why not?) tower lord without supporting tags in the usual context of "Oh this creature has [POWER]" rather than the sole arguement of being demonic.

The question is whether the goblins currently care whether their demon overlords have [POWER] or not, or if they simply form their civs around whatever [UNIQUE_DEMON] has struck up a deal with a deity and fled the underworld. If the [POWER] token is irrelevant, then what matters is whether the game picks a random existing [UNIQUE_DEMON] creature for elevation, or if it generates* a new one on-spot, in which case adding it to a creature won’t do much. [UNIQUE_DEMON] is relevant, as not just any underworld-dwelling demon can become an overlord. In fact, the overlord demons can’t be found in the underworld.

The normal [DEMON] token I would suppose is for the initial wave of demons, and possibly to prevent demons from attacking each other.

I also suppose slightly different routines could be used for the original goblin-civs, and the new ones created as a byproduct of dwarves digging too deep.

*From the June reply we know that the demons (in the new demon-civs) are ”created on the spot”. We don’t know whether the leader is generated then though, as ”created” can simply mean that they didn’t have histfigs before that.

FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2199 on: July 04, 2019, 12:09:07 pm »

Quote
It can also be noted that the third mode, Legends Mode, isn't the same as World Gen, but rather World Gen PLUS whatever happens during the period fortresses and adventurers are played in the world, both in the background and as a result of player actions.

Yes, I made a mistake when I said worlgen, I was really thinking in Legends mode.
Thanks for your answer, you're right about this topic. Unless Toady says otherwise, now I am begining to see clearly that is not possible any fusion of the three modes. In any case, after each of them has been completed they will be united like puzzle pieces, I suppose.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2200 on: July 04, 2019, 05:57:59 pm »

They're already connected to a considerable extent, changes made to the world in fortress mode will carry on into adventure mode and vice versa, and of course you can read about those changes in legends mode. But yeah, still a lot of weird stuff and incompleteness that needs fleshing out.
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Felblood

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2201 on: July 08, 2019, 05:15:15 pm »

If you really want to explore the connections between the 3 modes in one world, you can generate one with hidden legends and try to reveal the legends. An adventurer can uncover some legends by chatting with people about people, artifacts and problems, but exploring a retired/dead player fortress and reading the engravings is generally faster.

This leads me to some new questions:

1.Is unlocking hidden legends still going to be one of the ways that you expect players to measure progression?

2. Is there ever going to be an option to hide only part of the legends?

Currently, I have to choose between knowing where every secret artifact was stashed, versus not even knowing if my native civ is at war with anyone.


I can see a number of ways to come at this, from hiding any secret legends and those over 100 years old, to just randomly hiding 50% of all legends data, so players have something to unlock, while still being able to somewhat get their bearings.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2202 on: July 09, 2019, 03:58:07 am »

Surely information available in-game (like who is at war with whom and where all your artifacts were last seen) should (eventually) depend on what civ you're playing, not "player 100%, player 50%, player in the dark".

Legends Mode on the other hand should only really cut info optionally for cpu reasons (cull histfigs). Since you're playing God there (as there's no way for the game to know who you may or may not play during the life of a world).
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 04:02:06 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2203 on: July 11, 2019, 03:24:47 am »

That new devlog is hype. Petting animals is a nice touch - I'm really excited for what comes next.

This brings to mind a question - will non-animal zombies be able to take commands now as well? In order for them to grab and use weapons, armor, etc.

Real_bang

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2204 on: July 11, 2019, 05:34:26 am »

Nice devlog! This brings me one important question to ask:
Can we pet the intelligent undead that we raise aswell?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 05:36:32 am by Real_bang »
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