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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 445917 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2400 on: September 04, 2019, 02:23:51 am »

The mouth wouldnt even be usable for wrestling so, yeah. You'd need to just have it in your inventory, but that would require some kind of change to how transformations work so you don't immediately drop everything you carry when you transformm.
I think you would anyway if you transformed into an owl.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2401 on: September 04, 2019, 03:49:07 am »

How do adventurers turned into animals by bad dice rolls not starve to death?
Unless you're turned into a shrew (complete with the reduction in body size) you won't stare to death during a 12 hour transformation.

Actually this gives me one thought
Would cursed adventurers after turning into an animal and back heal their lost limbs like the werecreatures?
Probably not. I'd expect a basic attempt to preserve injuries into corresponding injuries in the new form, with things returned to the previous state when transformed back. By "basic" I mean major limb/sensory functionality that can be translated with some kind of ease, but not bother with fiddly details (translating arms and legs into legs or legs + wings would be reasonable, but lost digits translated to wing functionality would be harder). I'd also expect injuries sustained while transformed to be carried back using the same limited logic. Things get tricky when there isn't a suitable easy translation (such as 6 or 8 legs vs 4 limbs, or e.g. antennae vs tongue/nose).
If a shape change single time "curse" would restore lost limbs I'd expect a flood of (probably adventurer only) people trying to get cursed to suitable shrines.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2402 on: September 04, 2019, 04:11:59 am »

12 hours?
There's been one example so far (Toady's). He turned into an owl for a week.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2403 on: September 04, 2019, 11:34:16 am »

12 hours?
There's been one example so far (Toady's). He turned into an owl for a week.
You're correct, of course. That's what you get for relying on a flaky memory...

However, even a week isn't enough to starve a reasonably large creature to death.
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2404 on: September 04, 2019, 04:11:50 pm »

Maybe not needing to eat is part of the transformation.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. Was this inevitable (Y/y)?

PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2405 on: September 04, 2019, 05:39:36 pm »

Either that or the grasping system will have to be changed so that mouths and feet can be used to manipulate objects.
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It's actually pretty terrifying to think about having all of your fat melt off into grease because you started sweating too much.

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2406 on: September 04, 2019, 09:24:22 pm »

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Follow up to my question about home towns then:

Do all party members have to come from the same civ, or do we get complete control over their origins? If that's possible, do they react well to being at war with each other?

Nahere: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004271#msg8004271
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=108160

Yeah, it doesn't restrict down the choices at all.  My understanding is that they get along (in some minimal sense) based on the shared 'commander' variable, where their current tie to the player's character squashes other problems as long as it lasts.

Quote from: ZM5
Regarding the fail-safe checks for the dice, I take it there is also a check in place to ensure a fail roll doesn't result in the adventurer's death because they turn into a fish and air-drown? ;p

On a more serious note, is the time limit for summoned creatures a hardcoded part of the interaction or will that be definable?

Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710
ZM5 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004812#msg8004812

Yeah, if I recollect, you can set the summon timer, including to no timer.  And I remembered the fish case when I was writing the divination transform, ha ha ha.  But there are probably some odd ones still.

Quote from: zakarum
1. Regarding new capturing mechanics, if it makes the cut, are you aiming for it to be broad enough so you can capture other creatures, like wildlife or beast such as dragons? What about titans and megabeasts? If yes how would you handle gigantic beasts or megabeasts such as Bronze Colossi?
2. Will the new capturing mechanics and interrogation system spell an end for the indestructible chains/cages that current exist? Will there be prison breaks with the interrogation part of this update or is that far ahead?
3. Will creatures with magical powers (demons, necromancers) use their powers to further their plots? The classic here would be doing a deal with the devil in exchange for something. But a necromancer could raise an intelligent dead to manipulate/infiltrate somewhere.

1. I do not yet know.  Things like cages are notoriously goofy, so once an item like a rope is involved, we'd have to work for it to not also be deeply silly.  But we're not sure yet if it'll involve items at all or just have to be something quick and simple to satisfy our current need (which would mean something more like a modification of the yield mechanic + the new pet leading stuff, etc.)

2. Dunno about fort stuff yet.  Significant modifications to cages is too much to bite off now, but there's some room for a bit, especially as it relates to plots against the fort.

3. One of the necromancer plots is called 'undead animator world conquest' in the code, or something like that, and they use the proper powers there obviously.  But generally, there's not a lot else to work with.  The necromancers do use their intelligent undead and ghostly agents throughout there plots, and demons do that too when they have access to such powers.

Quote from: Death Dragon
With the changes to evil regions, is it now easier to tell if an evil region is a reanimator region or can that still only be found out by making a fort and checking if your butchering refuse comes back to life?

Does <quote from last Fotf> mean you can get a permanent (?) weapon or pet as a reward from the divination dice rolls, or did you mean you can get a blessing that will make your weapon more effective in combat?

Like in the embark interface?  I haven't changed that, though you'll be able to tell sometimes just by seeing a tower at the center of the region now that they are dynamic.

Permanent stuff was actually easier to do than item enchantments (which I haven't revisited yet), but basic quality also.

Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Is there currently any sort of limitation in place for what percentage of the population necromancers/demons will take to experiment on? I could see quite a few settlements getting pretty weird pretty quickly if the bad guy is just allowed to transform everyone (which would be fun, but might also take away from immersion).

The people are all executed and turned into zombies otherwise, so they just go for it.  Because they have zombies, living creatures simply cannot be tolerated, so the humans etc. all have to be affected in some way.  To keep the exposition manageable currently (as we've said before, we're trying to ease into these procedural creatures from the edges), an individual necromancer sticks with one of each kind once they have a successful experiment (that is humanoid, small quad+, large quad+, giant.)  Gives it kind of an Urukhai=Saruman feel.  We'll slowly branch out from there.

Quote from: voliol
Are the experiment/giant amalgamation type creatures bright red Ńs, the color reserved for "constructed creatures" as stated in that old night creature DF talk? Are intelligent undead bright cyan Ńs?

Intelligent undead are bright cyan, yeah, and yeah, the experiments, despite not being exactly Frankensteinesque, were close enough that we went with the bright red N for them.  We still want to do the Frankenstein's-monster-types, but it is harder.

Quote
Quote from: EternalCaveDragon
With the adventurers as villains content, and the new actions necromancers and demons (with the death sphere I presume) can do in creating experimental creatures and undead types, could player necromancers do the same things when it comes time for adventure mode villainy?
Quote from: scourge728
Are player necromancers going to be able to do the corrupting of citizens and other such experiments on things?
Quote from: GeorgeChickens
Will the player be able to perform the twisted necromancer experiments, or is it worldgen only?

Death Dragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017739#msg8017739

Yeah, as suggested in the replies, it's a bit out of scope.  It isn't an 'interaction' in the way the other powers are, because it's presumably occurring through some process that has additional inputs over time, etc.  We'll be sorting these more complicated bits out with the magic stuff.

Quote from: Immortal-D
Do you know if the updated menus of the Steam release will include a revamp of the labor interface?  Or will the Steam menus simply look prettier, but function the same?
You mentioned earlier that stress & memory fixes will most likely happen before The Big Wait, but can you say if you'll be able to look at those before Steam release?

Almost certainly.  The current discussion is the balance between automatic labor style, spreadsheet style and other approaches.  As we've said before, we don't want the spreadsheets to dominate the game, but automatic labor choices aren't precise enough for some people.  Just doing everything is tempting, of course, but we'll only have so much time to work with.  So we'll see.

It'd probably be prudent to take another crack at stress before Steam, yeah, and we'll probably have to keep working on it.  It wouldn't surprise me if tweaks there end up being one of the things that happens *during* the Big Wait, with what we hope to be the new branches etc., since stress/happiness/etc. are so finicky and hard to tune.

Quote from: Death Dragon
Are these summonable "larger, nightmarish beings" basically the typical, random hell dwelling demons, or are they special in some specific way?

I haven't done anything super new here, but they do occupy a size space in between humanoids and gigantic FB/demon types, which we've hardly explored at all up to this point.  The large experiment quads also are sized in this way.

Quote from: falcc
1. Some demons know and intone the names of all things. Do they automatically know the names of all ghosts? Can they identify secret agents any better than average?

2. Is a dead adventurer raised as an intelligent undead after game over playable again? What if someone other than another of your adventurers is the one that raised them? Can they potentially be ghosts, and could you play them as ghosts?

3. What do ghosts do mechanically when it comes to moving from place to place? Are they flying? Do they pass through walls like a late game Larn character? Do the different kinds of ghosts that appear in fort mode now affect the abilities these new ghosts have? Does that mean some can pick up items, and how will their movement effect such a thing?

4. What do summoned beings know if they're intelligent? Are they blank arena mode style vessels? If you summon a mountable animal, can you ride it? If you summon a creature that knows and intones the names of all things can it banish ghosts?

5. With proc gen creatures finally roaming the world at smaller-than-titanic sizes, is there going to be any place in game to see the creature size number? Even picking animal people adventurers is a challenge right now. If I'm a bluejay person coming across a bright green N, which started out as a kea, but is small overall I've already got a pretty difficult time making a threat assessment even before I even know if its size has changed in the transformation.

6. Most importantly, can you pet the large nightmarish beings, and once you get to having feelings about being pet, what are they gonna think about that?

DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004795#msg8004795
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004813#msg8004813

1. Ha ha, flavor text of all kinds always comes back to haunt the living.  Sphere-vault critters are even worse that way.  Nothing yet.

2. I'm really not sure - the flags are all there, and they aren't removed as far as I know, so theoretically they'd be playable, the intelligent undead ones, barring something I missed.  Ghosts have the additional uncertainty of being...  more dead.  More of the death variables are left intact for them (from ghosts in fort mode), so they have a higher chance of not being playable if old advs, I think.

3. They are completely removed from the path-finding checks - liquids, walls, air, whatever.  They haven't been connected power/habits-wise to the old ghosts, since they are kind of different, but I can see that gap being bridged by the metaphysics stuff from mythgen.  I do not recall how poltergeists currently work when picking up items in fort mode...  do they items go through walls or does it change their path model?  Don't remember.

4. They don't know anything.  It is odd.  I haven't tested the summoned mount case, and it depends on a few variables, so it'd need to be checked.

5. I think the comments have more or less addressed this; we'd like to use a different solution, many are available, and they all have issues.  I'm not sure when we'll try to address it, but as noted, the addition of these sorts of creatures places another thumb on the scale, toward doing something about it at some point.

6. ...  hmm...  maybe not.  I don't think a bogeyman can be pet, which is their closest cousin, because they are intelligent.

Quote
Quote from: squamous
You mentioned that the subjects of magical experiments could join populations. Through this, is it possible to introduce non-procedurally generated races into the world? Say I make Race X, and make an interaction so that a wizard type will focus on creating Race X in large numbers (or at least just create them in general), with the intent of seeding the world with this artificial race. Would that all work smoothly? Also, as of now there is a way to have non-necromancer wizards live in towns. By not giving them a "rais undead" flag, they'll hang out in civilizations and even end up ruling them. Could that also have an impact on the spread of Race X?
Quote from: Pillbo
Along those lines: Could a necromancer hide in plain sight in a civ by only raising intelligent undead minions?  If the humans or whatever can't recognize rotting flesh or gaping wounds in a person running around a necromancer with intelligent undead minions would look more like an organized crime ring, gang, or if they are clever enough a performance troup, guild, or cult.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004791#msg8004791

Yeah, Shonai_Dweller is correct about the tags.  And generally, experimentation doesn't currently work through an interaction with an adjustable creature token the way other powers might work, since it isn't used the same way.  The experimentation is a relatively complex pathway, as with FBs and other proc critters, so we'll have to sort out additional syntax later.

Experimenters don't currently use their own civilians, just conquests.

The necros can't hide in plain site forever because they don't age, and that makes people suspicious, but yeah, the intelligent undead don't yet make people suspicious (which is odd not just because of the rotting, but because they, like, should be recognizable to others that know them before they died...  and they are...  but those people don't care, ha ha ha.  So much to do, later.)

Quote from: Inarius
Will we see our lands transformed into evil lands if an evil force installs itself near our fortress ? Will this process work after worldgen ?

Due to how the local populations are instanced from the regional ones, I suspect you won't necessarily see everything (given that I haven't started fort mode work yet!)  I expect the general process to continue, but certain of those layered parts of it might not be easy to get working right away, though the animals and grasses seem doable.

Quote from: Bumber
How many souls do the amalgamated giants have? Do the amalgamations contain all the souls of the victims used, or are they considered to have died?

Right now it smushes a bunch of non-historical critters to a single historical critter, so the soul problem can be dodged.  I'm sure it'll be more interesting when we start to fully embrace the multiple soul infrastructure that has been in place for like a decade but never used.

Quote from: Beakromancer
Will magical experiments have different traits depending on what creatures they were made from? For example, a creature made from elfs being at peace with wildlife.

EDIT: A better example would be a creature made from dwarves needing alcohol.

EternalCaveDragon: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005095#msg8005095

Haven't done anything like that yet!  The creature generator does understand the input creature (at least on the first humanoid, before it starts defaulting to the same result to save memory), but doesn't use it beyond counting limbs and stuff to see if the output should be humanoid/quadruped/etc. and also the basic size.

Quote from: Pillbo
Are aquatic megabeasts planned for some point? I imagine they are an addition for when boats happen, but it would be cool to have Kraken or monstrous whales drag themselves out of the sea to attack a coastal fort, or lurking in the shallows to ambush.

PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005154#msg8005154

Yeah, we probably won't seem them until then, side from the beaching zombie whales or whatever was known to happen on rare occasion, at least in the past.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Are dwarves fearful of these magical experiments/roughly average to the effect of fighting the undead, or will they cut them down with as much regard to their attitude to battle as wildlife or other sentients?

Experiment doesn't infer that they're actually un-alive, just possibly dorf-centipeded to send alcohol into one dwarf's stomachs when they inexplicably somehow consume a flagon or barrel of booze, then through multiple bodies, then a tantrum throwing sober dwarf sown in there at the end somewhere unable to drink the consumed alcohol who punches the dwarf head at the top with whatever control they have of one arm of the body.

Erm less satirically and more practically they might just get ressurected by a necro or arrive already undead with them if i understand correctly without any further elaboration.

Can 'magical experiments' be revived by necromancer zombie summoning? That sounds messy potentially to have a amalgamated monster of many limbs split off into arm-zombies. Also quite !!fun!!

Fear: It doesn't have an effect now.  With the number of critters out there, I'm not even sure what the proper course of action is without adding a whole new system for exposure tracking and so forth.

My understanding is that dead experiments can be animated, based on the tags.  The experiments don't kill the villagers at the time.

Quote from: Death Dragon
With the villain update, if a goblin from a goblin civ obtains the title of king over a human or dwarven civ through a coup and intrigue, will that civ then start to act more similarly to a goblin one because of the goblin king's values, which originate from a goblin civ? For example, will a human/dwarven civ that is ruled by a goblin from a goblin civ be more likely to declare wars?
Do war declarations, etc depend on the values of the actual ruler or does diplomacy right now depend on the civ's average values instead?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005547#msg8005547

The personality and values of the ruler have a strong influence on decision-making, especially in warfare.  But yeah, the ruler's disposition doesn't spread outward to future rulers or flip the actual civ value meters for all time, unless value books are written and placed in libraries, and those are generally made by others.

Quote from: WordsandChaos
Actually, facetious as my earlier comment about boats was, given that wagons are considered to be creatures, is it actually possible for the procedural body-horror abominations to incorporate wagons?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005547#msg8005547

Ha ha, we really haven't gotten to anything that complicated yet.  The centaur problem has not yet been attempted.

Quote from: golemgunk
Can the ghosts necromancers raise attack people like the murderous ghosts that sometimes appear in forts? Can you physically fight a ghost?

When a fort in worldgen breaches the underworld and falls to demons, do all the demons stay in their new home or is there a chance that some may choose to set out and work on their own schemes?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8006084#msg8006084

Ha ha, no, we were kind and did not give ghostly agents the instadeath powers.  Because indeed, you cannot physically fight them - our intent was to make them actually different from the others.  You need to use their identities to control/banish them.  This will likely change as we get more stuff in later, but we wanted to toy around with it now.

Assuming they don't die in the initial breach attack, they basically become a full demon-led goblin civ w/ some extra demons, and they interact with the world outside just as other gobs do, spreading throughout.

Quote from: Inarius
Have you seen the "Dwaven Language Codifier" here ? And if yes, what are your thoughts about it ?

(http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.0)

Yeah, I've seen it!  I think it's a cool project.

Since some of the analysis applies to all the languages (since they are underspecified but have a lot of similar characteristics), it's important to note that we're going to end up having to blow a lot of stuff up with procgen, if we can get it to work.  Though I've been wanting to do that for years and haven't had time.  And as with the myth stuff vs. the creature types etc., I really don't know precisely what 'default' is going to mean, or what sorts of vanilla language notions will remain intact.  Presumably, with the editor examples etc., there might even be a more and more fixed version of things.

Quote from: MinerMan60601
Will you add Sand to the embark indicators? Dfhack has it, and you already indicate dirt and clay presence.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8006878#msg8006878

Yeah, it's reasonable, but it's better to suggest it where I won't forget, for the next time I add a bunch of indicators.

Quote
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Now that monasteries have been added as separate structures from temples, is it safe to assume that "monastery" has been taken out of the procgen pool for temple names?
Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Will we be able to designate monasteries in fortress mode?

Do you plan to change the way dead units are handled, so they don't clog up the list (there's an immigration issue there too)?

Clarification: I am referring to Nonsignificant creatures clogging up the dead units list, i.e. having to scroll past all those puppies :-(.

Eschar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008096#msg8008096

Yeah, there were a few word tweaks like that, though it's mostly the same.

I haven't gotten to fort mode yet - how many of the side systems make it in is an open question.

I don't have a specific plan for the unit list aside from combining all the notes that have come up in suggestions.

Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Do existing changes also include the animated furniture? Can you as a necromancer, say, stitch new frankentrocities around a schist cabinet?

When you say you can create new monsters from amalgamating other creatures as a necromancer, can we do that in adventure mode and can we "invent" new creatures or are those just generated from the start?

I look forward to having a ball of various arms rampaging around a castle. Not so much one rampaging around my lever room.

Will the divination games be generated at the beginning of the world, or could new ones appear over time?

None of the animated items or items glued to critters yet.  That'll take a body rewrite, which I've avoided thus far.

The generation of experiments does occur on the fly, but we don't have an interface for it.  The game becomes slowly more interesting, but there's always more interesting stuff around the corners we don't quite reach from release to release.

The divination practices are linked to both the gods and religions, so it'd require a new religion to created, and then also a new shrine.  New cities can be founded and stuff, so new shrines seem possible, but I don't recall if prophets are still actively engaged in forming religions post w.g.  Seems like maybe we still need that part.

Quote from: PatrikLundell
Have you considered splitting the Myth & Magic Big Wait into two Large Waits with a Systems Rewrite release in the middle? It seems to me that the systems rewrites that are going to break save compatibility really is a prerequisite for the actual Myth & Magic stuff, but from the exterior it looks like you'd have to restore the current functionality using the redesigned map (etc.) as a starting point regardless, and it doesn't seem that much of that would have to be torn up again for the magic stuff. Doing it in two steps has the advantages of play testing (i.e. bug finding), and reducing a very uncomfortably long period of no releases into two merely quite uncomfortable ones.
I know this is very much a suggestion, but I'm quite interested in hearing the reasoning behind the decision, as I'm sure you've considered the various options.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008308#msg8008308
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008344#msg8008344
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008419#msg8008419
DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008440#msg8008440
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008601#msg8008601
AliceRed: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008683#msg8008683
PatrikLundell (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008800#msg8008800

Sure, we've thought about it a lot.  It mostly boils down to us never having absorbed the pain of a really large refactor-only release, and not really wanting to do that.  One wait with stuff seems better than a somewhat smaller (but still very long) wait with literally no stuff.  One I can explain, the other I can't easily.  I mean, it might not be a problem, but this is our own form of risk aversion, I guess.  But I dunno, since there's a lot of moving parts.

Take, say, temporary morphing faerie-land border zones.  That needs to be supported in the map rewrite if we're ever going to have them.  I need a test case to test it, or to make the time feel worth it.  So, faerie-land, in some simple way.  All of these simple cases taken together seem to encompass what we're thinking of as the first myth/magic release.  Or else there's just sort of a large swath of untested map code with no visible benefit or mode of testing.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2407 on: September 04, 2019, 09:24:35 pm »

Quote from: Nopenope
Could you give more detail on the exact mechanisms behind tantrums/depression/stumbling around and the resulting insanity? (Not talking about strange moods, which are already extensively detailed) Like, what are the exact stress thresholds to reach, successful rolls to pass, relevant personality traits (beyond the already known propensities), effects of mayoral consoling, and so on?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011121#msg8011121

Yeah, I don't think there's much point.  It's broken.  A giant mechanical rundown will probably take as long as just doing another pass at fixing it.

Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
With the myth release, will the prayer system in adventure mode be changed so that when you talk to your deity in a high-magic world, the deity might actually respond (whether by physically talking back or through some sort of "sign")?

MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011114#msg8011114

Yeah, as MrWiggles says, various such matter is on the table.  Deities might be wandering around, or all the way over to some form of inscrutable half-communication.

Quote from: Kiloku
Will we ever be able to make foreign weapons such as pikes, morning stars, lashes etc. in our fortresses? Maybe a way for the group (or maybe just individual dwarves) to learn how to make them somehow?

MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011170#msg8011170
feelotraveller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8011540#msg8011540

'Ever' is a hard word, as usual - it certainly becomes more and more reasonable, as we now have things like residency petitions and large-sized clothing and all that, such as it is.  But it's not a priority up to the magic release for sure, and beyond that anything is hard to say.

Quote from: seht
What's the current difference between world generation and world activation? As in, what stops with the former?

Will vampires and necromancers automatically be villains, or is villainy something that follows from personality traits?

There's a lot of stuff that still doesn't happen after world generation, the core being world-wide production and trade.  There are tons of numerical stockpiles in worldgen moving around that hardly matter afterward, but once we get to that, it'll suddenly be very useful to have it around.

Syndrome critters that expect to be persecuted start to form plots, and due to the unnatural aging of both those statuses, this includes vampires and necromancers.

Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Is it going to be possible to send out your dwarves to build tunnels and roads (off the map), or will that have to wait until after the map rework?

What were the parameters for generating the dwarven language (i.e. seed)? Sorry to ask but it would kind of help to be able to err... "fill in" certain... missing words.

Will it be possible for, say, hostile religious cults to take a hold or carry out their conspiracies within your fortress with the upcoming release?

golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8012965#msg8012965
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013252#msg8013252
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013357#msg8013357
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013455#msg8013455
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8013604#msg8013604

There isn't a specific plan to do explicit road building off-map before the other stuff.

The seed doesn't really matter here, since it is reset whenever I generate a few new words at a time, but just the allowable combinations of letters and so forth.  The frequencies don't even matter since we choose the words by hand from among the generated words.  I don't have it handy, but you can probably reconstruct the allowable combinations from the existing word set, and just work from there.  It's not very complex currently.

Cults: Yeah, we haven't gotten to the fort bit, and we're going to try to incorporate what we can of all the villainous activities.  The main thing to do is just to make sure we have the basic interactions and counterintelligence, but the more side systems (like the religion, merc, trade, guild, etc.) bits, the better.  But time will tell, since there isn't a lot of it.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I assume when you get there, Fortress Mode will also be getting some kind of villain knowledge screen, right? Will it be possible for visitors to share their knowledge with the Fortress, somewhat like the info the Outpost liasion gives you? I assume there aren't any other detectives in the world for now, but it'd make sense to be able to get at a retired adventurer's knowledge and perhaps that of previous fortress inhabitants too?

Yeah, we're thinking it's all going to be part of the justice screen, a new counterespionage/intrigue tab or wtvr, possibly administered by the new counterintel position-holders we have from world gen, or else by the sheriff/guard captain.  It'll probably be just like the adventure one, since that's shaping up well.  Information from travelers is important for it, whether rumors or from actual interrogations.  New more-permanent immigrants to the fort would also have data, yeah, and incorporating that seems reasonable enough, and that'll have to be meshed with the fact that they might be one of the bad actors themselves.

Quote from: Novel Scoops
As you increasingly create features that every roguelike would want (a legit combat system, say), can you open-source those particular bits of code?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8014557#msg8014557

Yeah, it's a hard thing to figure out.  Open-sourcing the whole thing is not possible, for a variety of reasons.  If the Steam release works out well enough that some (but not all) of those reasons go away, then releasing pieces becomes slightly more feasible.  The interconnection, as Shonai_Dweller mentions, is still a problem, but it's less of an issue in some cases.  We've been talking about this internally, but no plans have gelled - and it's still too early to assume we'd be able to act on them.

Quote from: acastells
We will see plots against our adventure mode party ? I mean, we are going to expose a lot of criminals so its logic they want to assasinate us.

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8014565#msg8014565

Yeah, as therahedwig writes, resistance against investigation will certainly cause this to happen (and the frameworks for that are already in from all the w.g. plot stuff/vendettas.)  More broadly, I'm not sure what other reactions there will be yet.

Quote from: Jack_Caboose
Since a map rewrite is coming as part of the Big Wait, are there any plans to make sites less-hardcoded as a part of it? For example, having player-defined sites and buildings as options for civs other than hillocks, fortresses, etc., or the option to generate player-defined buildings similar to megabeast shrines that can have custom loot or creatures?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015356#msg8015356

We're going to try to line up the technical side of it, yeah, and that'll probably involve some case studies.  I'm not sure how far that means we'll have to go at first -- rewrites for the game tend to go deep as we yank the mechanics out of the ground and they just keep connecting up to stuff that also has to go.  We've been lucky that stuff like forgotten beasts as played so nicely between the hardcoding and the raws, for instance, but the tough part of hooking them up hasn't happened yet.  We'll be seeing some of the hard work on the sites, I suspect, and it's unclear precisely where it'll end up.  My eventual, difficult goal is to get all the procgen out into text or scripts, somehow.

Quote from: Su
Meph's commercial tileset seems to be coloured by hand rather than using the classic tileset's automatic recoloring.

i'm hoping to create an extension of the classic tileset using unicode symbols, but i don't have the time or energy to make copies for all the different colourations of each symbol, so: will the new tileset features be compatible with the current release's automatic tile recoloring?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015588#msg8015588
Su (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015772#msg8015772
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8015886#msg8015886
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016022#msg8016022

Yeah, it's too early to make promises on this, but the plan is to not lose any existing functionality, just allow the various cool new bits.  All the same, if the recolor were to go, an auto-recolor utility that just made the compatible tileset for you from your grayscale one would probably crop up before long.

Quote from: Phenoix12
1. Will we be able to set plots in motion during fortress mode. Such as appointing a dwarf to something akin to a spymaster and having him go out on mission to create plots for us. Like assassinating the leader of the elves. Or tricking the humans into going to war with the elves.

2. Will we eventually see even more complex and crazy plots and schemes. Love to see some xanatos gambits show up in some grand evil plots someday. Or even plots learning of and taking advantage of other people's plots for their own gains. (Like some 'hero' finds out about a plot to kidnap the son of the king but instead of stopping it he secretly sets his own plot into motion to allow the kidnapping to succeed only so he may later go 'rescue' the prince and return him to gain respect and political favors.)

3. At this time the only reason anyone wants to learn a secret is because they want to be immortal. Will other the other reasons to learn secrets eventually get their day in the sun; like 'wanting to rule the world', etc.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016210#msg8016210

1. PatrikLundell is correct about this - we'd like to implement as many of the plots as we can for players to do in both modes, but there will likely be certain holes just based on random reasons or convenience that we'll have to loop back to later

2. We hope so.  It'll have to wait of course, but we're closer now than we were before.

3. Part of the thing currently is that the game doesn't parse secrets very well or understand too much about what they are for.  So if they have like a combat ability increasing power, it just wouldn't be able to put two and two together on that.  The current new reasoning is in the desire to be immortal; that happens for a variety of reasons now.  This will likely all be blown open once there is more to learn in vanilla DF.

Quote from: Beag
1. Will there be a chance that new races created by demon or necromancer could have inborn special/magical abilities?
2. Will more legit organizations such as site governments, merchant companies and mercenary companies also appear in the organization tab in the intrigue menu?
3. If the player joined a group present in the organization menu would they appear on the graphic?(Currently it is possible to join bandits and criminal groups at least at an entry level).
4. Will special buildings like guild halls also appear in generated human settlements?
5. Will any of the new special buildings appear in elven settlements?(Unlikely I know but I thought I'd ask.)

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016473#msg8016473
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016497#msg8016497
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8016568#msg8016568

1. Yeah, given the undead lt powers, this is sitting right there on the table.  I actually don't remember if I did some minor ones or not, and it strikes me as more fun not to check.
2. They already have the entity tab, but we are considering an additional information bit there as it relates to access, to the extent that transfers over cleanly from worldgen.  It's much harder to enforce access restrictions in adv mode, as the adv and the target are just wandering around, and we don't have a good guard system yet.
3. I think so, yeah.  I don't think there's a check that keeps them off.
4. Yeah, those are done.  They aren't special, but they do have little guild-specific masterpieces sitting around and stuff.  Can still use a lot of work, but it isn't a priority now.
5. They have a 'tree' for them, but it's as half-assed as usual.

Quote from: Bydth
With the Improved Sieges subfeature, will the skills, attributes, and facets of histfig siege leaders affect the behavior of the invading forces?

Elaboration:

So a leader with high Military_tactics will steer their troops around and under marksdwarf fortifications, coordinate and synchronize assaults, manage fighting retreats, and judiciously use sapping/building, while a leader with poor Organizer will have their forces show up piecemeal lacking provisions and equipment? Perhaps a general with high leader and social skills sends their soldiers into battle fed and motivated, rallies panicking squads, and marches troops though narrow passages in formation, while a incompetent moron with high stress vulnerability will delay in extricating their troops from the ballista battery, call a retreat that collapses into a rout, lose half the army to axedwarves while re-enacting Three Stooges routines in the stairwell, take for granted the main gate remaining open, and die  alongside the last of their soldiers in the trade depot as the siege engines finally arrive? Have a system where geniuses can make huge mistakes (Napoleonic invasion of Russia) and mediocre generals can have stunning successes? (Henry V of Agincourt fame)

We're not sure exactly what's going to happen there, but since those skills now exist, and are used off-map, it would be nice to get some use out of them in local play.  There just isn't enough for them to work with currently.  If the added tactics give us enough wiggle room, we'll finally be able to consider it.  Making believable AIs of different skill levels requires a lot of effort, and we don't even have the building blocks yet.

Quote from: alan8325
Couple questions on the map rewrite:

1. Will we get multi-level furniture? For example, grand doors that are 2+ z-levels high and multi-block statues, similar to trees?
2. Will
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
be changed a proper plane of existence?

golemgunk: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017268#msg8017268
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017271#msg8017271
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017284#msg8017284
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017288#msg8017288

1. We have a long list of things we'd like to support, and this is our next big (and perhaps final?) crack at a real good map rewrite, so we'll likely try, or at least see what we really need out of furniture in the long-term (as opposed to just using multiple map tiles and the 'moveable fortress' model.)

2. Depending on the cosmology, it would be a different plane of existence (which would match how it currently works with the change to the sky description in adv mode when you are down there.)  There are plenty of examples of those types of places which are just down below though, so I imagine both will be supported.

Quote from: Renarin21
Will there be "semi-public" organizations? For example, a kingdoms counter-espionage department, which might be publicly known to exist, and might have some members who exist to communicate with people not in the organization, but many of the members are unknown to people not in the organization.

That sort of happens, but it isn't precisely as formal as it would need to be to count as a 'yes', maybe.  For instance, there might be a 'keeper of seals' in a human civ, who is publicly know to be a kind of spymaster/counterespionage official, and then they have agents that operate under identities, and also some schemes in place involving less formally linked characters, and also the power through the guards to arrest people and interrogate them.  But there's something about the (lack of) coherence and certain naming that makes it not feel quite exactly like the 'secret police' or whatever other analog, though it might be a bit closer by the time we're through with the work on the in-play stuff.

Quote from: Thundercraft
Now that we have the ability to retire and unretire a Fortress, will we eventually gain the ability to pick and choose a selection of dwarves, animals, resources, weapons and tools from our current fort in order to chain-embark to go found a new site somewhere else? Will we eventually be able to bring certain animals on embark from our breeding programs that have been painstakingly bred to be, e.g., larger or taller than average or with certain color traits? Could we, one day, even embark with an artifact from our old fort?

Also, in fort mode, will players eventually be able to trade artifacts, at least between sites within our fort's civilization?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017742#msg8017742
Thundercraft (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8018876#msg8018876

With the 'c' screen stuff, we've certainly taken slow steps toward various interactions with the world, and this release is continuing to add to that.  As for those specific examples, I have no idea.

We didn't get to various artifact transfer stuff that's been in the notes for a long while.  Sometime this may happen, but I have no idea when.

Quote from: AliceRed
You mentioned one of the dice effects is a syndrome which turns your adventurer into an animal. Could this lead to the ability to make creatures which only reproduce by turning other creatures into more of them in gameplay? Curious since aside from Vamps and Werebeasts I believe that only exists in worldgen right now, and is a very common fantasy trope.

These new horrific necromancer/demon creations, are they likely to be one of the things modified by the tone meter you mentioned for future, myth and magic versions of the game? If so, I'm increasingly excited to see what that meter is like turned all the way up in a few years.

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8018316#msg8018316

Night trolls also basically work that way, though it doesn't use an interaction effect.  But yeah, in some technical sense, you could already do this in the currently released version probably, but the game still doesn't understand how to make it consistent and happen throughout, and to abstract populations.

Tone slider:  Yeah, exactly - the basic experiments would definitely be in the 3-4 range, on a 5 point scale, maybe even a 5 if they are described in detail.  Hopefully we'll see some good progress with this after all these years, with the myth/magic stuff on the horizon.

Quote from: voliol
Are vampire/werebeast turning (not by curse) and night troll kidnappings considered "villain plans" that will be properly implemented by these beastly villains post-worldgen? Or have you advanced past the stage of adding villain plans, and they were not added when you did?

Turning agreements are part of the new intrigue relationships (part of the overall additions, but not exactly a plan/scheme specificially right now), and troll kidnappings are still over in pure beast AI behavior.  So the former is more likely to make it into the play modes, though the post w.g. troll stuff is also one of those things we'd been kicking around since we already the pieces in place.

Quote from: Doorkeeper
I hope the FDG conference went well Toady. Do you know if there will be a public archive of your keynote presentation?

We tried to have somebody record it last second, but the lighting and audio just didn't work out.  I'll probably put up my slides in the coming days.

Quote from: falcc
As of right now, rumors get cluttered up with "so and so was attacked by small animals" and the histories are full of "so and so attacked so and so, though the latter escaped unharmed." In the coming releases, will dishonest assassins be bribeable, and will they return with the rumor that they attacked their target, but they got away? I know lies would be extra code, but these rumors are already spreadable.

Also,

To what extent are the endless conversation topics about being attacked by animals that immediately run away used? Will telling these stories to the elves make them mad, under the hood somewhere? Do companions use these attacks to determine if you're taking them towards glory or death effectively enough? And are any filters planned before the big wait?

I haven't done anything with bribing assassins.  It is interesting, though, yeah, about which sorts of lies would have a larger memory footprint than others, and which lies can be easily contradicted or have many, many forms overlapping.  I agree an isolated fake incident lie would be easier to control if it didn't happen too often, though even in this case, we'd need to handle you asking the not-actually-attacked target about it (who would know that the attack did not happen), and then having two versions of events stacked.

Doesn't come up, I think.  And I don't have plans for it in the near-term, though things that are strange or confusing are all on the (very large) table for the Steam release, in terms of usability.  The overall issue is just that combat is treated as an 'incident', and sometimes that matters, even with small wilderness critters, because they in fact might injure you etc., and so the structure needs to be in place, for a nebulous amount of time.  Just need more work sealing them off and deleting them if they come to nothing.

Quote from: Hapchazzard
With all these new fancy intrigue mechanics, do you reckon that adding in proper secret societies won't take too much effort down the road? As I see it now, the main thing that's missing is having them have motivations beyond generically amassing power, and letting them form a more formal hierarchy as a direct evolution of the current agent networks and such.

Yeah, there are lot of things which'll be easier now.  This all branches out into diplomacy and sub-groups and so forth, and we'll just continue adding stuff bit by bit.

Quote from: Severedicks
Will warehouses/trading companies, mercenary companies, guilds and new religions will be relevant in fortress mode (in the form of visitors, religions getting founded at your fort, merchants establishing trading posts, building shrines, etc.)?

Are bandit forts, monasteries or mercenary headquarters considered sites that you can raid, loot, raze or conquer?

Why were castles pulled out?

Can the fortress player make alliances with other civs?

Can intelligent undead arrive as migrants or visitors?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019444#msg8019444
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019446#msg8019446
MrWiggles: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019589#msg8019589

I haven't gotten to fort mode yet, and we'd like to bring in as much of the non-villain side material we added to world gen over to fort mode.  But we won't get to it all.  So we'll see!  This holds for alliances as well as the new entity types/stuff.  But yeah, those sites are all targetable.

Castles removed, way back when?  I don't recall if it was when I added the land-holder position stuff?  It was some minor complication.  Then, after all the changes over the years, that wasn't even an issue when I came back to it.  The code was already in place or totally easy to change, and I didn't even notice what was holding it back before.  This actually happens quite a bit.  Frameworks just get more robust as they are used (is the hope.)

If the intelligent undead is free of its necro entity, then yeah, I don't think there is anything stopping them.  There is a sense that certain strange things will happen, and I guess we'll deal with them as they arise.  It seems fun, but there'll probably need to be a dampenening of certain ridiculousnesses.

Quote from: Nibblewerfer
How do adventurers turned into animals by bad dice rolls not starve to death?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8019988#msg8019988
JesterHell696: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020008#msg8020008
Nibblewerfer (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020018#msg8020018
ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020032#msg8020032
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020033#msg8020033
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020054#msg8020054
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020058#msg8020058
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020246#msg8020246
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020408#msg8020408
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020440#msg8020440

Ah, I put in NO_AGING since there might have been an issue from short lifespans, but yeah, I guess you should be able to root around in the garbage more properly or else not have to worry about it.

Quote from: Real_bang
Would cursed adventurers after turning into an animal and back heal their lost limbs like the werecreatures?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8020054#msg8020054

Ha ha, in this case I think PatrikLundell is giving us too much credit.  It's hard to map one-to-one wound transfers, or we would have done it way back in the werecreature case.  We did ponder what this would do to the frequency of supplicants, the 'worth it' healing of doing the transform, but didn't actually tackle the matter.  Just another note which may or may not be acted upon.  As with many things in hindsight, I think at least saving the wounds for the transfer back was actually not such a hard problem, so that could still happen, and would likely affect werewolves as well when it's done.  If it gets done.
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2408 on: September 05, 2019, 02:37:09 am »

Thanks for the answers :)

PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2409 on: September 05, 2019, 10:24:52 am »

Thanks for the answers, Toady. Really cleared some stuff up for me. :)
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Button

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2410 on: September 05, 2019, 01:56:57 pm »

I do not recall how poltergeists currently work when picking up items in fort mode...  do they items go through walls or does it change their path model?  Don't remember.

As of 0.34.something when I last had a ghost carrying stuff, they had to use proper pathing when carrying items.

Speaking of which, the context for that was a ghost who was continuing to perform his Animal Trainer duties from beyond the grave: he was carrying meat to tame a caged creature. Do you intend to preserve/formalize the previously-unintentional Helpful Ghost behaviors in fort mode, or are those on the chopping block?
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AliceRed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2411 on: September 05, 2019, 09:42:07 pm »

Thanks so much for the answers!

I know this is pretty far into the mythical and magical future, but you bringing up soul mechanics just filled me with such curiosity I have to ask, even if the answers will probably be pretty lightweight. It's pretty cool just to see your vague plans for the future either way.

Do you think certain generated Underworlds will be filled with the ghost/spirits/bodies of those who end up dying and going there, as some Mythgen slides mentioned certain Dwarves going to the "wild world" upon death with the same text color as other similarly ominous sounding places in other slides?

For that matter, what do you hope the variance of generated realms to be? Could there be realms which are essentially massive buildings when it comes to environment, ala some interpretations of Hell? Likewise, could some unpleasant dimensions like the Underworld be focused on darkness or cold rather than heat and flame like the current underworld in your vision? I'm curious, since across fantasy and especially real world mythology, evil planes can be so unique and varied - even different interpretations of Christian cosmology say Hell is hot, dark, bloody, etc.

Since reincarnation also seems to be a thing in Mythgen, would a sort of spiritual "history" be possible? Like where a Dorf or other entity's past lives are chronicled historically, I think it could be pretty neat. Possibly something that could be tied into divining-type magic whenever worlds generate with it.

Finally, will high-fantasy worlds where races are unlucky enough to be generated with mortal souls have a greater desire for immortality among individuals? Or at least more of their personalities generating with a fear of death?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 09:43:33 am by AliceRed »
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EternalCaveDragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2412 on: September 06, 2019, 12:23:37 am »

Thanks for the answers Toady! Got a bit of a question that refers back to a devlog, but one I felt needed asking after remembering the details.

Will the sphere of a secret affect the type of area it spreads, if it spreads influence over the surroundings at all? Like how necromancer towers spread reanimating (I would assume) evil areas, would a secret with the blight sphere kill vegetation, and deformity evil creature populations like the described freed demon spheres? Or is the reanimating region spread part of some specific feature of the necromancer code itself?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2413 on: September 06, 2019, 12:59:52 am »

Thanks for the answers Toady! Got a bit of a question that refers back to a devlog, but one I felt needed asking after remembering the details.

Will the sphere of a secret affect the type of area it spreads, if it spreads influence over the surroundings at all? Like how necromancer towers spread reanimating (I would assume) evil areas, would a secret with the blight sphere kill vegetation, and deformity evil creature populations like the described freed demon spheres? Or is the reanimating region spread part of some specific feature of the necromancer code itself?

The devlog for anyone wondering:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Note that it doesn't mention whether these sphere-related effects apply to secrets (i.e. necromancy) as well.

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2414 on: September 06, 2019, 03:32:05 am »

I do not recall how poltergeists currently work when picking up items in fort mode...  do they items go through walls or does it change their path model?  Don't remember.

As of 0.34.something when I last had a ghost carrying stuff, they had to use proper pathing when carrying items.

Speaking of which, the context for that was a ghost who was continuing to perform his Animal Trainer duties from beyond the grave: he was carrying meat to tame a caged creature. Do you intend to preserve/formalize the previously-unintentional Helpful Ghost behaviors in fort mode, or are those on the chopping block?

I personally think ghosts in general will recieve a rework to be properly manifested by the time of the magic arc given the current development goal objectives of having planes where the dead amass and obviously need to appear in some tangible form along with other creatures, (to mourn or run around with glee in their afterlife) and Toady's recent reply about banishing them using identities for the limited scope of the interaction in the mortal world may just mean they are interesting adventure mode quest targets right now.

Quote from: ToadyOne
Ha ha, no, we were kind and did not give ghostly agents the instadeath powers.  Because indeed, you cannot physically fight them - our intent was to make them actually different from the others.  You need to use their identities to control/banish them.  This will likely change as we get more stuff in later, but we wanted to toy around with it now.

Ghostly raised intelligent undead not-withstanding, i assume you can bash those since they are not the same kind of implied actors as singular agent ghosts from what i've read, unless its just part of the game to banish your enemy ghost siege leader by finding his name on the slab list and putting it down before they float through your defenses and murders all of your very un-magic/un-artifact weapon wielding dwarves.

Ghosts are usually satisfied by making a slab for them, will we have flexibile choices for how to handle semi-scripted events like "please banish the ghost from my house" to do what is expected normally, or twist the quest to ask and fufill what the ghost wants in order to let them rest for good?
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