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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 862169 times)

GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2535 on: November 04, 2019, 02:03:24 pm »

With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode.  Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2536 on: November 04, 2019, 06:33:40 pm »

With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode.  Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.
Coins can be minted in fortress mode: They just don't have any use. As far as I understand the economy was disabled because it was a buggy mess that would require too much work to fix, and I would expect the work required hasn't decreased, while the Premium release probably has a rapidly approaching last release date.
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Codyo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2537 on: November 04, 2019, 08:08:36 pm »

Fortress mode question!
The blog mentions being able to "track down" and "send somebody after them" when it comes to villains. Does this mean sending one dwarf, or a military squad to capture a villain? If they can be captured, will they be escorted to one of your dungeon cells?
I'd find it really fun to capture my fortress's nemesis and put him on display somewhere. To ultimately give him some creative dwarven justice.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 08:14:24 pm by Codyo »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2538 on: November 05, 2019, 05:15:35 am »

With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode.  Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.
Coins can be minted in fortress mode: They just don't have any use. As far as I understand the economy was disabled because it was a buggy mess that would require too much work to fix, and I would expect the work required hasn't decreased, while the Premium release probably has a rapidly approaching last release date.

We aren't talking about the economy, as coins and the use thereof is not the economy.  The rest of the world could still remain economically static after world-gen and all the goods bought by our dwarves would simply magicked into existance the same way that caravan goods are.  Coins actually work better than way because we do not have to worry about the external supply of goods for sale actually having a basis.

The main question though was how bribery is going to work in fortress mode without coins or if bribery is not going in for that reason. 
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2539 on: November 05, 2019, 06:17:29 am »

With bribery now a thing, it seems to make sense to (re)introduce coins and the use thereof into fortress mode.  Is there a specific reason you are not doing so, the development does not require the economy because the goods the dwarves buy with their money can simply be conjured into existence in the hands of visiting peddlers the same way the caravan's goods presently are? Is bribery going to be ruled out in fortress mode altogether or do you instead intent to have non-money based bribes by which actual goods are given to dwarves; that would seem to require gift-giving to exist normally so as to provide cover for this mechanic.
Coins can be minted in fortress mode: They just don't have any use. As far as I understand the economy was disabled because it was a buggy mess that would require too much work to fix, and I would expect the work required hasn't decreased, while the Premium release probably has a rapidly approaching last release date.

We aren't talking about the economy, as coins and the use thereof is not the economy.  The rest of the world could still remain economically static after world-gen and all the goods bought by our dwarves would simply magicked into existance the same way that caravan goods are.  Coins actually work better than way because we do not have to worry about the external supply of goods for sale actually having a basis.

The main question though was how bribery is going to work in fortress mode without coins or if bribery is not going in for that reason.
I imagine they'd just use abstract accounts for now, same as everyone else. Would be odd to introduce coin exchange just to facilitate bribery. Still I guess we'll find out in a few weeks.
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recon1o6

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2540 on: November 05, 2019, 02:12:35 pm »

I would like to point out coins are a fantastic projectile for debris drop traps in DF and are also good for improving your supply of metal. 10 bars forging and 11 returned when melted
killed a forgotten beast made of rose gold this way- dropped 800 or so coins onto it and mangled it

Speaking of traps, will Villains be able to start making lairs in our fort if they corrupt including traps, documents etc?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 04:52:20 am by recon1o6 »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2541 on: November 05, 2019, 03:37:21 pm »

I imagine they'd just use abstract accounts for now, same as everyone else. Would be odd to introduce coin exchange just to facilitate bribery. Still I guess we'll find out in a few weeks.

That would make sense at is actually all that money is good for, in the real world as in dwarf fortress.   :)

In world-gen it works fine to use abstract accounts since it is all abstract anyway and it glosses over the cultural details.  To have your dwarves bribed with imaginary wealth is rather strange/confusing so I really hope we do not go down that route.  As I see it there are three decent options, introduce the use of money in fortress mode, prevent fortress mode dwarves from being bribed at all or introduce gift-giving in general as a cover for bribery in specific terms.  I do not consider imaginary bribes a reasonable fourth option. 
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2542 on: November 05, 2019, 03:45:05 pm »

I imagine they'd just use abstract accounts for now, same as everyone else. Would be odd to introduce coin exchange just to facilitate bribery. Still I guess we'll find out in a few weeks.

That would make sense at is actually all that money is good for, in the real world as in dwarf fortress.   :)

In world-gen it works fine to use abstract accounts since it is all abstract anyway and it glosses over the cultural details.  To have your dwarves bribed with imaginary wealth is rather strange/confusing so I really hope we do not go down that route.  As I see it there are three decent options, introduce the use of money in fortress mode, prevent fortress mode dwarves from being bribed at all or introduce gift-giving in general as a cover for bribery in specific terms.  I do not consider imaginary bribes a reasonable fourth option.
Since only nobles are targets, it's easy to imagine a source of off-site wealth for bribes to fall into. "Promise of wealth on completion of mission" too. Still, not a big deal if bribery doesn't make it at all.

It doesn't really matter, nothing in the game is complete and we ignore abstractions in fortress mode every day. "Was bribed, abstractly" isn't any more immersion breaking than "was trapped in a wooden cage (dragon)".
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2543 on: November 05, 2019, 06:30:35 pm »

Fortress mode question!
The blog mentions being able to "track down" and "send somebody after them" when it comes to villains. Does this mean sending one dwarf, or a military squad to capture a villain? If they can be captured, will they be escorted to one of your dungeon cells?
I'd find it really fun to capture my fortress's nemesis and put him on display somewhere. To ultimately give him some creative dwarven justice.

Carrying on this question: "Can people who have been marked for arrest prior to leaving be pursued across the world map? As in to locate the identity of a were beast or fleeing vampire/villian/opportunistic artifact theif and then return them to the fortress in custody or otherwise."

I guess the devil is in the detail to how informal/formal the accusation whether player set on meta-evidence they know (saw the werebeast transform into the identity they're chasing or discovered the vampire by some means) or deduced from your dwarves witness statements and interrogation are credible to use.
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Su

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2544 on: November 06, 2019, 11:22:57 pm »

targeted assassination/'arrest'(kidnap)

will we be seeing armies demand to have specific residents of the fort turned over to them / executed on the spot?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2545 on: November 07, 2019, 03:57:19 am »

targeted assassination/'arrest'(kidnap)

will we be seeing armies demand to have specific residents of the fort turned over to them / executed on the spot?

Lets hope that the Mountainhome can probably settle to be placated by putting the loyalty cascade leader on trial.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2546 on: November 07, 2019, 02:39:15 pm »

Since only nobles are targets, it's easy to imagine a source of off-site wealth for bribes to fall into. "Promise of wealth on completion of mission" too. Still, not a big deal if bribery doesn't make it at all.

It doesn't really matter, nothing in the game is complete and we ignore abstractions in fortress mode every day. "Was bribed, abstractly" isn't any more immersion breaking than "was trapped in a wooden cage (dragon)".

That may be so but these are not things that add to the game, they are things that are annoying and make the game look incomplete.  Yes the game may be incomplete, but it is not an advantage for the game to look so.  :)
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Death Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2547 on: November 08, 2019, 07:16:27 am »

Thanks for the answers, Toady.
Actions like flattery can increase trust but decrease respect, for example, depending on the personality of the NPC.
Does that mean we can flatter and flirt with any random person in adventure mode?

Quote from: Toady One devlog 7th of november
You can fill these jobs yourself with any worshipper you like - we thought it would be too cruel to randomly take one of your best dwarves away.
I think this is too bad. 1: Because I was hoping for entities like religious organisations and craftguilds to be factions inside your fort that you don't have direct control over. 2: The question of if the ruler gets to assign a religious head or not is a classic conflict in history. 3: Because I think it gives your dwarves additional personality when they themselves decide they want to apply for a position like this.

Does manually assigning someone to the priest position cause a negative thought in your religious population similar to how overruling the vote for mayor does when you just manually assign a new mayor, or does assigning a priest work similar to how assigning a barkeeper works with no strings attached?
I assume you're intending to put off the work on the power and influence of these uncontrollable factions inside your fortress to when you get into the status/laws/etc update after magic, right?
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Vivalas

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2548 on: November 08, 2019, 01:47:28 pm »

To add to that:

Is it possible that certain organized religions may petition to install their own priest instead when a petition is put through? This would possibly be an additional cool way in which outside agents can weasel their way into your fort, too. Also: what options or actions do villains in charge of a religious organization undertake to further their evil plans. Would an evil Cat Pope or whatever install agent priests all over in an attempt to start a cat uprising or some such ridiculous mischief?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 01:49:21 pm by Vivalas »
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"On two occasions I have been asked,"Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2549 on: November 08, 2019, 03:00:21 pm »

Oh yeah, I totally forgot religious persecutions/riots were a thing now in WG. I wonder if they'll come to fort mode, but my gut says the loyalty cascade bugs will make this a pain. I guess I'll ask when the month is nearly over, in case it's addressed in the next three devlogs. Similarly, I am sorta wondering that if decorations are what makes the temple, what makes the crafts-guild. A fancy office? Dedicated workshops? A stockpile? but I'll wait for the next few logs.

Quote
we thought it would be too cruel to randomly take one of your best dwarves away
So priesthood is a fulltime occupation? Do priests do anything in the fort(sermons, consolation, I guess other religious rituals are out of the question for now), or are they like barons and other nobles, in that they are not supossed to work but do because that nowork tag is currently bugged?
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