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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 867502 times)

EternalCaveDragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2640 on: November 27, 2019, 10:48:36 am »

I'm too lazy too check if these were asked before, so i'm just going to ask these.
1:If kidnapping is a possibility, will my fortress be able to kidnap enemy leaders (or just historical figures in general)?
2:Along the same lines, will captured enemies/caged sentients be able to get themselves free/take over the fortress from within by using my dwarves?
3:If vampires/necromancers generally become evil by default, will my vampire necromancer fortress end up spawning hundreds of new villains?

Vampires definietly become villains because they have to commit crime to survive, but generally Historical figures become necromancers because they already had a somewhat villainous personality, so making your dwarves into them wouldnt make a difference, the transformation doenst actually change the personality. (It doenst just generate necromancers they come about in worldgen by choices made by hist figs who become necromancers, or in your case a dwarf reading the wrong book) Now if a dwarf was already ambitious (thats a possible personality), it will probabbly just make it more likely.


If you want you can play adventure mode and see how it all works very personally :) rathe rthan making assumptions based on what you see in fort mode

I may be misremembering this, but I think Toady at one point stated that the change from mortal to necromancer/vampire comes with a personality change towards the extremely positive when it comes to scheming, to ensure that they actually create and execute their unique schemes. They don't actually get any better naturally at intrigue, I think, but as this release is themed around schemes, giving them a nudge so players have schemes to read about/take part in/stop seems fitting.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2641 on: November 27, 2019, 10:57:40 am »

I'm too lazy too check if these were asked before, so i'm just going to ask these.
1:If kidnapping is a possibility, will my fortress be able to kidnap enemy leaders (or just historical figures in general)?
2:Along the same lines, will captured enemies/caged sentients be able to get themselves free/take over the fortress from within by using my dwarves?
3:If vampires/necromancers generally become evil by default, will my vampire necromancer fortress end up spawning hundreds of new villains?

Vampires definietly become villains because they have to commit crime to survive, but generally Historical figures become necromancers because they already had a somewhat villainous personality, so making your dwarves into them wouldnt make a difference, the transformation doenst actually change the personality. (It doenst just generate necromancers they come about in worldgen by choices made by hist figs who become necromancers, or in your case a dwarf reading the wrong book) Now if a dwarf was already ambitious (thats a possible personality), it will probabbly just make it more likely.


If you want you can play adventure mode and see how it all works very personally :) rathe rthan making assumptions based on what you see in fort mode

I may be misremembering this, but I think Toady at one point stated that the change from mortal to necromancer/vampire comes with a personality change towards the extremely positive when it comes to scheming, to ensure that they actually create and execute their unique schemes. They don't actually get any better naturally at intrigue, I think, but as this release is themed around schemes, giving them a nudge so players have schemes to read about/take part in/stop seems fitting.

Looking through the devlogs i dont see this. So i think you are misremembering, unless he said it in fotf or some interview. The thing is necromancers as individuals already have problems so forcing their personality to change isnt relaly nesessary to begin with. (And its also weird as heck), he did say eventually they will be tempted and give into temptation but thats different from a sudden perosnality change.

I did see one bit like this:
"that necromancer was motivated purely by her zany sense of humor, which somehow survived the transition.."  So maybe they dont even need to value cunning to be a villain.

Another fun fact, vampires can apparently use their blood to tempt people to help them, so we can actually get vampire bloodlines now.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 11:31:44 am by Untrustedlife »
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FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2642 on: November 27, 2019, 05:18:39 pm »

It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2643 on: November 27, 2019, 05:48:50 pm »

It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?

Have the technical requirements actually gone up at all over the past 5 years? A lot has been added since 2014 (last time people mentioned a noticeable increase in requirements). If anything, it's running faster now thanks to optimizations. Replacing the ancient code with new, better designed code and optimizing over time is likely to keep the requirements stable for the foreseeable future.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2644 on: November 27, 2019, 06:32:26 pm »

It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?

Speaking as a software engineer,
The fact that you think a quantum computer right now  is somehow more powerful then a standard computer right now is somewhat misconstrued.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum-computers-struggle-against-classical-algorithms-20180201/
https://www.wired.com/story/the-ongoing-battle-between-quantum-and-classical-computers/
Right now quantum computers are not more powerful than classical computers in general, quantum, computers are better at certain algorithms, not all algorithms. Also claiming that "It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version" is kind of a big assumption ye sit may grow more complex and will but the technical requirements probably wont change all that much. The most demanding things right now are pathing and weather simulation.  Both of which hes either pledged to improve (pathing) or refused to make more complex(and is very old code, that can be optimized) (weather).

Also making the switch to a quantum computer would be arduous for df, many of the algorithms currently present in df would need to be rewritten.
There are a number of technical challenges in building a large-scale quantum computer and thus far quantum computers have yet to solve a classical computation problem faster than a classical computer. Though they have achieved higher speeds on other sorts of algorithms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computing#Quantum_supremacy

(Though I will admit some of the simulation aspects in df could probably be done more efficiently with a quantum computer but right now if df were suddenly converted it would actually run much slower in general)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 06:50:01 pm by Untrustedlife »
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2645 on: November 27, 2019, 06:43:48 pm »

It is a fact that DF will be more complex and bigger over the years. In addition their technical requirements will be increasingly demanding. There would not be a PC powerful enough today to run the Final Version if it existed right now (perhaps the exception would be a quantum computer or a super server).
For a project proposed for long-term development, what criteria do you follow so that each version of DF is consistent with technological progress? Perhaps you consider Moore's law?
How often do you renew or increase the characteristics of your PC or laptop due to the development requirements?

Have the technical requirements actually gone up at all over the past 5 years? A lot has been added since 2014 (last time people mentioned a noticeable increase in requirements). If anything, it's running faster now thanks to optimizations. Replacing the ancient code with new, better designed code and optimizing over time is likely to keep the requirements stable for the foreseeable future.

I dont believe they have.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2646 on: November 28, 2019, 01:00:19 am »

What do you see as the purpose of a guild in a fortress? Without an economy or any real trade competition, they are....what? Social clubs?

From a Dorf point of view temples are a thing, because dorfs have religious needs plus gathering/socializing. Taverns are a thing because dorfs have a need for entertainment plus gathering/socializing. Guilds are a thing....because...demands provide a gameplay challenge (same as nobles)?

Apologies for slight pessimism, I wasn't around when guilds were last a thing.


Oh, and:

Will entertainers have a chance to get together and demand stuff? Seems like with priests demanding better temples and guilds demanding better guildhalls, entertainers lead by the tavernkeeper might demand bigger, better dance floors and especially more instruments for the tavern (put a stop to all that beatboxing). #notasuggestionatall

And, sorry, one more thing:

Are the guild numbers 10 and 25 moddable?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 03:59:29 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2647 on: November 28, 2019, 04:03:07 am »

Well, its mentioned they could be able to share skills same way as military squads, so that'd be a really good bonus imo, along with some actual socialization.

Perhaps it'd allow for some automation of the "practice a craft" need too.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2648 on: November 28, 2019, 04:13:37 am »

Well, its mentioned they could be able to share skills same way as military squads, so that'd be a really good bonus imo, along with some actual socialization.

Perhaps it'd allow for some automation of the "practice a craft" need too.
Oh yes, practice a craft need fulfilled by hanging out with other craftspeople playing with abstracted tools would be good to see.

Maybe take on some of the useless children as apprentices so they can be something better then a peasant when they grow up too.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2649 on: November 28, 2019, 07:38:05 am »

Well, its mentioned they could be able to share skills same way as military squads, so that'd be a really good bonus imo, along with some actual socialization.

Perhaps it'd allow for some automation of the "practice a craft" need too.
Oh yes, practice a craft need fulfilled by hanging out with other craftspeople playing with abstracted tools would be good to see.

Maybe take on some of the useless children as apprentices so they can be something better then a peasant when they grow up too.
The problem with guilds fulfilling needs for crafting is that it goes against the grain of what guilds are: organizations for skilled craftsmen (who'd get their crafting needs fulfilled by their work), rather than the dabblers. However, that's a suspension of belief I'd be quite willing to engage in should Toady's guilds actually include huge hobby crafting sections.
I certainly would like apprenticeships as well (in particular if that would help kids craft "real" artifacts rather than the things they currently produce, as they all mood before growing up to learn a real craft [in my fortresses, at least]).
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2650 on: November 28, 2019, 07:39:06 am »

I don't think historically kids would join a guild, as they would've been too young to understand the concepts. On the other hand, children would probably be stuck doing stuff like hauling part time and they don't do that in DF either and these ARE dwarves...

But yeah, I also hope the demonstrations get in, it'd be a good reason to actually foster a craftsguild instead of ignoring them because they might be a vehicle for villainy.

But since it's almost the end of the month...


Are guilds per job type or per job category? (So are we going to see farmer's and woodworking's guilds, or are we going to see pottery and carpentry guilds? Or Both?)
Will trade corporations also make an appearance in player forts? They're separate from craft guilds, right?
Do you think we'll see prophets and religious persecution show up in player forts? Or can we assume all prophets to be hacks?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2651 on: November 28, 2019, 08:04:36 am »

I don't think historically kids would join a guild, as they would've been too young to understand the concepts. On the other hand, children would probably be stuck doing stuff like hauling part time and they don't do that in DF either and these ARE dwarves...

But yeah, I also hope the demonstrations get in, it'd be a good reason to actually foster a craftsguild instead of ignoring them because they might be a vehicle for villainy.

But since it's almost the end of the month...


Are guilds per job type or per job category? (So are we going to see farmer's and woodworking's guilds, or are we going to see pottery and carpentry guilds? Or Both?)
Will trade corporations also make an appearance in player forts? They're separate from craft guilds, right?
Do you think we'll see prophets and religious persecution show up in player forts? Or can we assume all prophets to be hacks?

I originally assumed it was category (because who ever has 10 dorfs of the same job type, let alone 25?). But looking back through the devnotes I see a reference to a bonecarvers guild.

Current fortress has 118 dwarves. I can form a farmer's guild and nothing else, unless the dancers unionize.

Prophets are meant to turn up in the new version. But even the non-spies only give fake prophesies. Mythgen might figure out how to predict the future (and have added apocalyptic events to prophesies about).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 08:08:57 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2652 on: November 28, 2019, 08:36:09 am »

Ah, prophets don't have to give future-telling prophecies, I was thinking they'd maybe give sermons on whatever made them prophets in worldgen and go around converting your dwarves? Because prophets in worldgen only give message-from-the-gods prophecies, right? It's a bit tricky because the word prophet and prophecy are so loaded...

EDIT: to clarify, prophets from the bible are able to tell the future because God is able to tell the future, and conveys that to Their prophets through visions and dreams. And, come to think of it, so this is also how the oracle of Delphi worked(messages supposedly coming from Apollo, afair) This might just not ever be the case for a DF deity, but they do have that kind of relationship with their prophets. I think this is also why we got divination dice in temples now... Oh!

Does using the dice at a shrine count as communicating with that deity in terms of needs?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 08:51:49 am by therahedwig »
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Flying Teasets

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2653 on: November 28, 2019, 11:02:59 am »

Will the guilds restrict entrance to their profession and hide trade secrets like their historical counterparts?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2654 on: November 28, 2019, 11:07:06 am »

Historically kids would become apprentices to masters (who were [potentially] guild members), and I believe that in at least some cases passing a test to become a "real" craftsman was required before you could become a guild member, so if DF would go about it "properly" kids would become apprentices to masters to learn crafts, but I assume it's a lot harder to implement master/apprentice relationships between people that actually do something physical than the abstract one for scholars and performers.

(Craftsdwarf assisted by apprentice doing jobs slightly faster? Would involve the hassle of trying to get both in place at the same time, unless completely abstracted. Setting apprentice to haul stuff for the next job to the workshop? Would require the next job to be "started" before the current one is finished, with the attendant locking of the input items and release if the job wasn't completed. Etc.).

Edit (Flying Teasets posted while I typed):
I'd expect guilds to eventually guard trade secrets, but currently there are no secrets to hide, so it would be room for future expansion. Also carries the issues that you'd get problems with starting a fortress if the crafting knowledge you need are kept by guilds that won't form until you've started the fortress... Thus, any secrets would have to be sufficiently advanced that fortresses without them aren't hampered too much. The making of foreign clothing/armors/weapons would be candidates within the current DF environment.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 11:12:50 am by PatrikLundell »
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