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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 674842 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2895 on: February 01, 2020, 01:25:45 am »

Are you not showing the night-creature descriptions in Adventurer character creation on purpose ('cos, "doh I'm a useless blob" is Fun), or is it something you haven't gotten around to doing yet?

And will experiments get variations (skin, hair colour, eyes, etc). It's kind of sad to see their completely blank "Appearance" tab. Even gorlaks get a brief eye/skin description there.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2896 on: February 01, 2020, 04:06:03 am »

Quote from: Witty
You mentioned on Dwarf Fortress Roundtable podcast that you and Zach had a multi-day Transport Tycoon session. Could you elaborate a bit on that? I'm curious as to how you got that started and what the ultimate end result was.

As I recall, it took some 36 hours just to advance from the early 1900s or whenever it started, to 2020 or 2050 or whenever it is set to end, at least if you are messing around in menus or whatever when dead tired.  We got hooked on it pretty bad, just upgrading our buses and etc., nothing special.  But school was on, and we had interleaved schedules pretty much, so at the apartment where we were living at the time, we could always have someone running the game, and it turned into a very long stretch without sleep.  We just played through to the end, and I don't recall anything particularly special about the outcome or anything...  we aren't very good at games.

Quote from: darkhog
With the graphics mode for the steam version, will you make changing tilesets easier so you won't have to basically update all the save games as well so they use correct tiles?

Also, more importantly, what are some optimizations you can do in game's coding so FPS death, if not becoming a thing of the past, can be way less common? Note that I mean performance issues during game play, not anything related to world/history generation (for that I'm a patient person and can let it generate over night).

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8072770#msg8072770

I don't have anything to add to PatrikLundell's post, other than to say that we'll need to rework how mods are bundled in general, along with the graphics.

Quote from: Silverwing235
Not originally by me, just found those lying around and thought you could shed some light. That being so:

1. Do abstract entity populations have any impact on historical figure genetic profiles, or is it limited to the historical figures?

2. Do genes besides colour have dominance or recessiveness?

3. Are personality goals limited to one per creature?

(...Yeah, not entirely relevant, I know. But a lone copyeditor like myself just occasionally runs into something they can't quite seem to verify or fact-check on their own, really.)   

1. Yeah, there are subpopulations with additional data, which is the reason e.g. eyes and skin are sometimes locked into a subset in certain areas.

2. It's very uninteresting as I recall.  The least interesting it could be.

3. Not technically, but effectively I think it only ever chooses one.  That whole system needs to be changed into something more satisfying than just a single top-level dream, I think, though I should probably hold off on that, ha ha ha.

Quote from: Luckyowl
not sure if anyone asked this, but is there a way you can make the rate, and reload time on range weapons a token so we can edit and customize different type of weapons?

It's a combat addition and we'd always been hoping to do a large push on that.  It hasn't happened, and it has been a long time.  I'm not sure when it'll come up.  Next possibility is with the army stuff after Steam/itch.

Quote from: therahedwig
Are werebeasts also among the teleporting (mega)beasts, or do they actually path the world like visitors do?

Yeah, they work like megabeasts, without an army, at least on the way in.  They may have to find their way back to their cave/wherever on foot.  I'm not sure how this'll work with them in the future in particular - I doubt they'd last the journey transformed since it usually takes a few days.  They should probably be rethought generally, though having them come as regular migrants when not transformed is quite cruel.

Quote from: Pillbo
As far as the graphical release is concerned, you've mentioned that initially there will be no Mac version. Does that mean the Mac version will be put on semi-permanent hold, or will there be an effort to hit the three OS versions in some subsequent release pre-Big Wait?

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8073665#msg8073665
Pillbo (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8073670#msg8073670
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8075089#msg8075089

In terms of the Steam release, yeah, I do not personally have the experience to sell a Mac or Linux product.  If I can't easily get the build working, and I can't marshal the expertise in whatever way, then it won't come to those platforms, whether that's eventually paying somebody to help or however it'll work.  I can't afford it now and don't feel comfortable asking for volunteers in this context, and I doubt my ability to put together a 'properly bundled' OSX app that works on whatever version is the latest and to keep it working through future deprecations.  Additionally, I haven't been closely following where the current notarization issues are at, and that might be prohibitive as a separate matter, depending on exactly what's going on.  I know some of my peers decided to leave the platform, but their situation might be different.  Others have struggled through it.  I'm all for getting it worked out, but it'd need to be a solution that sticks and which I can maintain more reliably.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Given the way that adventuring can reveal map features to your dwarves by expanding non-settlement knowledge of the world for the fortress mode world map, can we extract information about places from interrogated prisoners or is it restricted to related rumors only leading you to unmarked areas and tidbits of info about persons?

The kind of clauses we already have about invisible caves being un-raidable without a rumor leading players there apply for instance (without having the config off and seeing caves all the time), and the existing state of slabs and their guardians having loose oddly broadly known map co-ordinates.

Interrogation doesn't do anything like that currently.  It should do more.

Quote from: Schmaven
Since Steam isn't too keen on version numbers that start with a zero, do you think they'd accept just moving the first decimal point 2 digits to the right but otherwise keep the same version system?  So version 0.44.12 would become 44.12 etc.  I know eventually Dwarf Fortress will drift away from the list of features that helps determine this number, but it's really cool to have some rough percentage of included features so prominently visible like it has been.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8076243#msg8076243
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8076246#msg8076246
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8076400#msg8076400

Yeah, that sounds pretty good.  It would be a silly thing to complain about, if it comes up, given the scope we're dealing with, but if nobody ends up having a problem with the shift that works for me.

Quote from: VineFynn
"(Undead lieutenants) are under the control of the necromancer, but can retain much of their old identity."

What does this translate into gameplay-wise? Can a sufficiently good/strong identity break free from a sufficiently weak necromancer?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077287#msg8077287
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077310#msg8077310
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077433#msg8077433
VineFynn(op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8077569#msg8077569

Quote from: Criperum
Are friendship and grudges depend on personal traits or they are totally random? Like dwarves with opposing personal values are more possible to become rivals than those who have similar.

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078037#msg8078037

Yeah, there are some checks, especially as the relationships become romantic or turn to marriage.  It also uses trait changes as a factor in divorces...  which might put rain as a cause of divorces until any necessary things are smoothed about.

Quote from: Eric Blank
Probably already been asked/answered but when you return to it later, do you intend to add angry mobs to go after corrupt officials? Will we then be able to tell people about the corruption and incite them to do something about it?

Most random npc residents dont even care about invaders conquering their site enough to participate in an insurrection now, in adventure mode at least. How if at all has that changed?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078261#msg8078261
VineFynn: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078451#msg8078451
Egan_BW: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078452#msg8078452
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078474#msg8078474
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8078540#msg8078540

Yeah, the adv mode insurrection mechanic has been heavily undernourished, and nothing has changed currently.  Investigations were going to involve some sort of interaction with non-corrupt officials, if only to provide some muscle to help you out, but it would also make sense to tie in insurrection stuff, especially in cases when there are few non-corrupt people left.  I will note to keep the poor ignored insurrections in mind.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
So, in the world outside the fortress, religious leaders are causing strife, riots, vandalism and all sorts of bad stuff. But in-fortress listening to a sermon you disagree with is a "mild inconvenience". It's a bit contradictory. I assume this is a temporary compromise until stress is working well enough to add more bad stuff and in-fortress strife?

Or just temporary because we ran out of time, yeah.  Guilds and religions aren't supposed to be all good, beyond the issue of having to build a room for them.

Quote from: Criperum
Not sure if it was asked before but what will be the copyrights for game soundtracks? I'm asking because when the game is on Steam I'll start making a series of tutorials as i did before and i used DF soundtrack as background music for it. Will i be able to do it or youtube can potentially ban me for it?

Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8079950#msg8079950
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8079951#msg8079951
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080016#msg8080016
kitfoxgames: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081029#msg8081029

Yeah, I don't think they do auto-takedowns on this score, though I defer to Kitfox on any particulars when it comes to the new soundtrack.

Quote
Quote from: FAA
Does the economy update for the next version mean that items in the game world will finally be made of metals that make sense? As in, mostly of iron/steel and not platinum or gold all the time?

EDIT: Why wonít DF use mapgen system similar to the one in Cataclysm: DDA? Itís very simple and results in hundreds of structure types, each much more believable than anything DF offers atm.
Quote from: Ekaton
The question, I suppose is: can something like that be done in DF, within the constrains of its engine? The way it works in CDDA is wonderful and insanely easy and fast to code. If the simplicity can be replicated, it could make development faster and smoother.

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080409#msg8080409
FAA (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080506#msg8080506
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8080511#msg8080511
etc.

As Shonai_Dweller mentioned, there wasn't an economy update outside of some villain/building ownership tweaks.

I have no idea what system we're going to end up using.  Certainly with the map rewrite and the possibility of map editors, something is going to be different and it's going to have to be editable in some way that doesn't involve C code, but we also have a ton of interlinked constraints from the overlying map/site/civ/histfig data, even to reproduce such maps as we have now, and that'll lead to some genuine complications.  I'm still at the stage of listing all of what I need to support (keeping in mind the magic/etc. stuff also has to work.)

Quote from: FAA
Will food spoilage make it to the game?

DG: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081370#msg8081370

Quote from: Pillbo
When dwarves talking to each other is working what does that look like in the game? For example when walking past each other in a hall, is it sort of 'Unit1 greets Unit2', 'Unit2 insults Unit1' then they both continue on? Or is it more in depth like 'Unit1 mentions event/histfig/item to Unit2', 'Unit2 responds directly to mentioned thing', 'Unit1 says "it was inevitable"'?

Assuming they actually say things, does what they say depend on what their knowledge/opinions are of each other? Is this different from when they are specifically Socializing?

...

is the way people talk in adventure mode the exact same way they talk in fort mode? Since I've not seen any way to record or observe that these conversations are happening in fort mode I didn't know if they happen the same way or in some a simplified/abstracted way. What are the future plans for how the player will be able to interact with or observe talking in fort mode?

Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081272#msg8081272
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8081276#msg8081276
therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082302#msg8082302
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082310#msg8082310

Mostly, it isn't (or at least, shouldn't be, would be interested to see what therahedwig's dwarves got up to, if it involved events and places.)  The adv mode conversation stuff is too resource intensive - especially when they need to pull a fact about the world, or say some random historical event about some historical figure.  It's not easy to pull that data quickly in some cases, especially in the context of dozens of dwarves running around in real time.  But the stuff you see in combat logs etc. is all using the same code.  I'm not sure we'll ever be able to get at the full adv mode conversations (as those improve), it's just too much data being pushed around.  But there might be some chances outside of combat where the system can work, especially if you are observing a debate or something (or controlling one of the participants, as in the current trade/diplo stuff.)  If fort and adv diplomacy eventually converged on using the same conversation system, for example, that would be good, even if it is in a paused mode in the fort.

Quote from: George_Chickens
Is there a plan for adding in further integration of plots and intrigues to adventure mode? Can we expect more plot-related goodness before the Steam release?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082002#msg8082002

Yeah, the whole feature delay log ( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2020-01-01 ) means after Steam, but before we go off and do the map rewrite/myth/magic stuff.

Quote from: iceball3
Will villain/plotting networks eventually seek non-adversarial means of acquiring certain goals? For example, providing certain services to acquire assets, working together with ideological or political allies to accomplish a mutually desired goal, or exchanging proprietary information or craft knowledge as a service?

It would definitely be interesting if we were able to intercept a criminal network operating out of our fortress, and decide against dismantling them, instead directly negotiating terms with them and/or sponsoring certain operations if we deem their goals or needs useful.

Yeah, part of the idea here was just to set up means for individuals to do things through intermediaries, for any reason.  Hopefully it'll spread out into other parts of the game, whether it even resembles a 'plot' when it gets there.  Similarly, we made a lot of use of 'agreements' here, which started as trade stuff and then turned into the basis for adventuring companions and guides, and then villains.  Things have a way of percolating around.  (For all I know, a retired adventurer will 'confess' to being a companion under interrogation, though possibly I put a check in for that.)

Quote
Quote from: ZM5
In regards to the new summoning interaction, is there a token for summoning a specific creature (or creatures with a specific creature class) or is it only random and token-based for now? Similarly for the summoning area - Teneb noticed that with the random location parameter the summoned creatures tend to fall from the sky and occasionally take damage as a result.

They also seem to poof out of existence when they walk too far away from the summoner, is there a way to prevent that?

Also, what arguments does IE_ITEM_QUALITY in the shrine effects interaction take besides ARTIFACT? Same question in regards to IE_ADD_WEATHER besides THICK_FOG.

Thanks for the update! I'd be a tad disappointed if there isnt a way to summon specific creatures yet, but the new healing tokens, item summoning, edged ranged interaction attacks and the propel abilities definitely open up a lot of exciting possibilities!
Quote from: Untrustedlife
Anyway to add summon interactions for specific creatures? IE by defining a new CREATURE_CLASS ?

Instead of just deciding based on presence or absence of tags?

The below doesn't work:  It doenst error out but it doesn't avoid spawning mammals.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If not (or even if so) what are the limitations? Can it use any token or just certain tokens, etc?
Quote from: pikachu17
Why did you not list in the file changes txt file the new tokens in the interaction examples folder? You didn't list the unhardcodeening of DEMON, UNIQUE_DEMON, or FEATURE_BEAST either.
When does a medium blessing happen?
Why can SUMMON_UNIT be limited by flags, but seemingly not by creature classes?
Can interactions change the weather to something other than HEAVY_FOG?
Is there any way for a modder to make the create item and upgrade item interactions work as a creature action?
What do SKILL_ROLL_RANGE, SKILL_IP, and ATTRIBUTE_IP do?
Also, has anyone put onto the bug tracker where if you make a creature have the HEALING_BLESSING interaction, when they heal someone, they won't appear healed on a 'l'ook or 'v'iew, but will be healed, and on the 'h'ealth screen will show the the various tissues healed but nothing about them? I have no real idea how to use the bug tracker.

For summons, for specific creatures, according to this code you should be able to send in "[CREATURE:<creature token>:<caste token>]".  Using "ALL" or "ANY" or "DEFAULT" for the caste token lets all of the castes in.  But you can't currently use this tag more than once per effect.  So you can do something at least, though it can be improved.  And there is not class support currently.  The flags usually refer to the creature/caste tokens that don't have arguments, and it supports about 180 of those for castes, which should be most of them, but doesn't include anything complicated that involves a number or string (like a class.)

If you don't set IE_TIME_RANGE, do they not disappear?  The default is that they don't have a summon time.  That doesn't make them historical though, so they will likely disappear if offloaded.  Using the pet tag IE_MAKE_PET_IF_POSSIBLE may make them historical and more permanent (if no time range is set.)

For the summoning, if the distance is set (e.g. 5 in the example), it does a flood out from the summoner.  Could the summoner fly?  That might explain why they were in the air.

IE_ITEM_QUALITY can take a number from 0 to 5, aside from ARTIFACT.  There is a bug because you should also be able to send in a range like 2:3 and can't, but that should be fixed for next time.

Weather: Can use IE_ADD_WEATHER, IE_REMOVE_WEATHER.  Tags are FRONT_WARM, FRONT_COLD, FRONT_OCCLUDED, CUMULUS_MED, CUMULUS_MULTI, CUMULUS_NIMBUS, CIRRUS, STRATUS_ALTO, STRATUS_PROPER, STRATUS_NIMBUS, FOG_MIST, FOG_NORMAL and FOG_THICK.  It doesn't control temperature so it can't be used to choose between rain and snow, which of course would be more reasonable - but regional temperature is trickier to change.

Missing file notes:  Oversight.  Also forgot the new init.txt stuff.  Happens every major release, pretty much, and for stuff like unhardcodeening, there's just no easy way to check for it if I don't write it down when I do it, which is not always easy to remember in the moment.  The init thing I should have caught, but I wasn't thinking of 'init.txt' as a 'file' at the time, which is silly.

Medium blessings happen on some set of the faces, as with the rest, but these bigger blessings and curses are on fewer faces, and if a die has e.g. four faces, it might only place minor stuff on there.  There are no major blessings or curses on the dice - this is more the vampire level stuff, though I suppose some of the artifact and pet and healing blessings do feel pretty major despite being medium.  Just wanted symmetry with the no major curses (and of course the dice are goofily overpowered as it stands.)

Dunno what happens if a creature gets an item interaction as a CAN_DO_INTERACTION type thing.

I don't have a better technical writeup of SKILL_ROLL_RANGE etc. than the one provided.  Those are about how skill is applied to the job products, and how the skill is changed when the given job/reaction is performed.  IP refers to improvement points, or the speed at which the skill/att is increased per job.

Quote from: voliol
What does "all creatures w/ spit + animal people variation get it" (line 24) in the new file changes file mean? Is it describing which creatures get the pet interaction?

Teneb: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082257#msg8082257
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2897 on: February 01, 2020, 04:06:14 am »

Quote from: Beag
1. Do any of the profession background skills our adventurer can now possess have any means of using them/training them?
2. Are there any special things our adventurers can do with the new array of possible starting items such as extracts and tools?
3. I played an escaped experiment and went to a necromancer tower, the necromancers and experiments were fine with me but the corrupted ones killed me, is this working as you intended?
4. Will you be releasing small patches for this update in the coming days as bug reports come in?

PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082360#msg8082360

1. Not outside of the existing reactions from earlier versions.
2. Nothing new was added here, as far as I can recall.
3. No, I think they are generally too friendly -- zombies should leave you alone, since you are a night creature.  But anything belonging to the necromancer's group and which is intelligent should theoretically have a problem with you hanging out there without an id check (which would be impossible to satisfy currently due to a bug, see below.)
4. There will be some patches for the crashes and other new crap and some old crap, but we also have to switch gears to graphics stuff in a timely fashion.  But we'll be doing some parallel bug fix releases as that process goes.  I do not know how frequent those will be, but since I need to fix bad stuff (new and old) before the Steam/itch release anyway, there aren't any significant obstacles other than just keeping the graphics stuff rolling (our current problem.)

Quote from: Untrustedlife
Looks like evil regions spread pretty quickly in worldgen, does this mean maybe we can see them change in game?

Nope.  There just isn't the same mass use of the raising power currently in general post-battle situations, and so I didn't implement the change, though some of the disasters that happen in fort body stockpiles would definitely qualify (but don't, yet.)

Quote from: Untrustedlife
It seems to me that a large amount of the "lag" in heavily populated sites (eg human cities when next to a marketplace or highly populated tavern/whatever building) in vanilla dwarf fortress comes from the conversations happening that you dont actually see until they are close enough to hear. Have you ever considered reducing the amount of off screen conversation to speed up traversing these places?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082531#msg8082531
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082817#msg8082817
iceball3: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082822#msg8082822
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082827#msg8082827
nogoodnames: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082850#msg8082850
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082853#msg8082853
etc.

I don't have anything to add (see conversation).  It's often complicated and while there are still some simple changes that come up, sometimes it's an interrelated mess, yeah.  Certainly the general mess of their conversations needs to be cleaned up, even if it isn't an FPS issue.  (and it may be, see dwarf chat response)

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are you going to wait until Premium DF is done and released before getting back to any of the Villains features, or is it enough to set up the graphics framework to allow the artists to test and improve their work before looking at some of the postponed features?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082569#msg8082569
Shonai_Dweller (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082624#msg8082624

The delayed features will indeed have to wait through the entire delay period, until after Steam.  It isn't just the time spent implementing them, but in working on new villain features, the introduction of even more bugs would be an additional drag.  Doing parallel bug fixes, on the other hand, is all good no matter the release.

Quote from: Beag
I've noticed that when I played as an escaped experiment boogey men didn't attack me when I was alone at night, is this intended?

ZM5: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082895#msg8082895
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8082901#msg8082901

Quote from: Untrustedlife
Any particular reason why we get the "you must leave this site before you can rest" (or whatever message it is) when we try to rest in friendly human forts?

If you don't have a rep, it may be a war state, which seem to happen to the mercenaries and bandits (not sure what sort of fort it was.)  It should definitely be more clear about what's going on, even if it isn't a bug (not sure.)  It could also be a mess of what's going on with friendly necros etc., like the fort wasn't supposed to be friendly (for whatever reason), but was.  I'll try to get this cleaned up.

Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
Just curious: why are failed experiments represented by the letter "H" in-game as opposed to the "—/Ů" tile used for other night creatures?

Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083008#msg8083008
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083013#msg8083013

There should be a variety of letters.  I think it uses H for at-least-as-large-as-people humanoids?  This is of course confusing, and the whole reason we went with U instead of H for humans was to have less confusion.  But we are just out of letters now, and — is also confusing because there are many different kinds of experiments in a given tower oftentimes, and they need to be distinguishable (as often as possible.)  The real night creature haunting DF may be the pigeonhole principle...

Quote from: Seagoon
Seem to have a problem trying to ask for quests/report them to my characters superiors, the option is just not in the list. There is a 'hidden' option where the character says they are confused, but other than the usual options thats about it. What am i missing/doing wrong?

I'm not sure you're missing anything.  Bugs with this sort of thing are quite possible.  You'll likely get faster replies in gameplay questions if you don't think it's a bug, and on the bug tracker I can keep track of problems better than in here.

Quote from: Untrustedlife
I noticed you have been doing different updates on steam versus on your own devlog lately? (eg today(1/30/2020) you talked about the new bugs on steam but didn't do a dev log on your website about it and you have done this a couple times now) Any plans to change it so you post the same thing in both or will i have to continue checking both from now on to get all the latest dev news?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083038#msg8083038
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083072#msg8083072
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083075#msg8083075
Untrustedlife (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083078#msg8083078

As it stands, the Steam News stuff is on a two week schedule.  Every other Thursday.  (this was not true at the year change, as with many things)  If something's going on at that time, I'll write it there, where the dev logs are on their normal try-for-a-week schedule.  Since I'd been doing dev logs in a vaguely Wednesdayish way for a time, Steam didn't usually have much new stuff, but when stuff gets staggered (due to release, etc.), sometimes something comes up over on Steam first, and maybe I don't have a natural way to say it on the dev log or just don't remember.  There's is the thing also where if I just devlogged about something on Wednesday, it feels very normal to expand a bit on my previous thoughts when writing the Steam news, or add some detail I remember.  I don't have a plan to strictly monitor this process, but I can mostly continue to try to keep the dev log comprehensive.  The Steam news cycle may change of course when we pivot over there - it won't be possible to settle that until we see how things proceed.

Quote from: zakarum
Can dwarves change/adopt religion? Do sermons make dwarves more inclined to a different religion? Can dwarves lose faith in a god?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083117#msg8083117
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083280#msg8083280

We didn't get to anything interesting beyond what was logged, sadly.  As PatrikLundell says, worldgen has more stuff.  But that is the sort of thing we are hoping to have throughout the modes, and we're a step closer now, anyway.  As voliol notes, adv mode isn't particularly interesting either.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Worldgen relationships question:
Lovers get married, but do childhood friends ever later become lovers? That seems like it should be a thing on occasion.

Hmm, I don't think there's a block on it, but the odd part is that I don't think it increases the chances.  It'd kinda need an extra pass/chance thing - getting people paired off in w.g. at all is involved and necessarily a bulk operation, given the variables involved, and it's hard to change the main loop there, but just adding in a periodic extra check would be pretty cheap among personal friendship-style relationships.

Quote from: Beag
When I was playing an escaped necromancer experiment I traveled around for a few days and didn't get hungry thirsty or tired, do escaped necromancer experiments not need to eat, drink or sleep?

Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083258#msg8083258
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083278#msg8083278
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083465#msg8083465
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083468#msg8083468
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083504#msg8083504
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083515#msg8083515

The entire reason is that they would starve to death in world gen without farms or livestock.  It's similar to the goblins, but even worse, since they are actively trying to kill everything.  It would be somewhat amusing if they started farming failed experiment horned maggots for meat or something, at which point the necromancer would really be more like some kind of scifi terraformer making the planet into an alien world.

Quote from: Atomic Chicken
How does the new RANDOM_NEARBY_LOCATION interaction token argument work? That is to say, what checks are performed to determine whether a particular tile is a valid spawn point? Are creature characteristics (such as the ability to fly) taken into account with regards to summoning interactions using this? What happens if such an interaction were to be performed by a flying creature surrounded by nothing but open space when the unit being summoned is not a flier?

It is a little wonky now because it does a pathing flood out from the summoner.  And this causes exactly the issue you describe.

Quote from: clinodev
Are altars and dice meant to be adventure only, or for both modes? In fortress mode they can be bought at embark, made in the craftdwarf's workshop, and found in reclaimed worldgen forts, but altars at least cannot be built in fortress mode.

Are dwarf necromancers intended to openly arrive as regular migrants in fort mode? I've watched two very funny streams with multiple necromancer migrants, but they didn't end well.

They are adventure mode things mainly, the active parts, but I wanted the furniture available for placement in fort mode to get that side of things started (even if dice rolling would be way too disruptive there for now.)  Looks like the placement bit is not done then, and that's a bug.

No, the necromancer migrants coming openly is definitely a bug, ha ha ha.

Quote from: voliol
What are the requirements for a non-player fortress/civ breaching the underworld? It has been observed to happen multiple times in the same fortress (link), but could this happen to the previously emerged demon civ, without any intermediate take-over?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083376#msg8083376

Yes, it is a bit ridiculous right now.  I mean, technically mining gobs should be able to do it too, but they should know better, one would expect!  Or do the spire thing like the original demons.  This recursive-style demon dig is just odd.

Quote from: Untrustedlife
Gotta get a couple more in before the opportunity closes:

How free-willed are the current intelligent undead? (I remember a long time ago you said one of the big essential things about them is that they could, in fact run off and start a farm, or bandit group etc)

Will we ever see any night creatures akin to a Ring Wraith? Eg a night creature or monstrous magical thing associated with certain artifacts who hunt the current user of it.

Why do the new ghouls and intelligent undead have [SYN_CONCENTRATION_ADDED:1000:0]

What does the [EXPERIMENT_ONLY]interaction token which always appears alongside  [I_SOURCE:EXPERIMENT]  do? You would think [I_SOURCE:EXPERIMENT] would be all thats needed here. So [EXPERIMENT_ONLY] must do something special.

The intelligent undead just have an entity link, which (for the living and the dead), causes them to act against their own self interest quite a bit and be loyal to the civ, absent outside forces (like some of the new villain stuff.)  If the intelligent undead break out of that (after the tower is attacked, etc.), then they are free.  We'll likely opt for other system possibilities later when magic can back it up.

Artifact etc. magical stuff is all on the giant table for the magic release, but no idea what we'll support on the first go.

The SYN_CONCENTRATION_ADDED tag was a precaution after I had one bug with effects not fully manifesting due to low levels.  It may not be necessary, but I decided to give everybody a full dose of the juice until I could get a closer look at it.

EXPERIMENT_ONLY: Rather than just a source, it should probably be mixed with USAGE_HINTS somehow, but it has to be starker in stopping it from being used outside the experiment context.  It's just a cludge for the mix there since I didn't have time to do better.  It stops the use in play and also encourages the usage specifically to create experimental population.  Theoretically, though I didn't check this, if you have an invader in w.g. that does experiments, they should apply any modded effect that has EXPERIMENT_ONLY and an ADD_SYNDROME effect, no matter what it is, to make whatever kind of army (though these armies will probably be treated as less than intelligent/soulless in some contexts since they are expected to be zombieish.)  An "invader that does experiments" here is a UNIQUE_DEMON with deformity or chaos (and the demonic experiments param is set) or anybody with NIGHT_CREATURE_EXPERIMENTER, who also knows a relevant interaction.  I'm less sure about the demons -- they can know lots of secrets since they get them for free through spheres, but I don't know how easy it is to link one of these ghoul-type interactions to them.  Doing it as a deformity or chaos I_SOURCE:SECRET/IS_SPHERE may work.

Quote from: FAA
I don't know how often this persists, but in most worlds I generated in 0.47, other races replaced primary races that built those structures. Most hillocks, for example, are full of goblins, to the point where in my last world, most of them had no dwarves at all, which seems to have caused the problem with no innkeepers spawning in them. Do you plan to introduce harsher restrictions on race immigration? Perhaps xenophilia-xenophobia could be a good civ value as well.

therahedwig: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083568#msg8083568
Untrustedlife: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083569#msg8083569
FAA (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083691#msg8083691
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083725#msg8083725

The goblins are especially bad now with all the too-deep digging, though I agree they should at least refer more to why the demographics are the way they are in a nominally dwarfy site.  I am happy with the mingling over time though, as a basic matter, and don't want to replicate the stark divides often found.  Agree even existing facet/value information could play a role in this.

Quote from: Beag
I played as a necromancer in the new update and raised a pale stalker, the pale stalker then killed me, is this a bug? If not how do I get my undead lieutenants to obey me?

Ha ha, it does not give them an entity link or anything for you in post w.g. currently.  It would probably be nice of me to make it consistent at least.

Quote from: Rubik
I wonder if there's a new age name for a world with only necromancers and their undead slaves alive
The new necromancers are capable of corrupting an entire pocket-sized world so it should be possible

It's in the notes but I had to delay it along with all the rest.  It is something that definitely suggests itself when you see your first fully undead world, and there should be intermediate names as well probably.

Quote from: Beag
Are player adventurers able to assume identities from necromancer groups? I have been on a quest to find the creator of a created race as that race but when I assume an identity I can't pick the group that the necromancer belongs to.

Hmm, it appears to use top-level civs, which they aren't, or the 'discovered' flag...  however that works.  That part seems a bit antiquated, sadly, and necromancers had to use site entities over site entities to manage their conquests to avoid a whole host of pre-entity-framework-rewrite problems (so they aren't civs.)  This may be manageable in this context though, but I'd need to tweak it.

Quote from: janxious
Given you've very recently changed the screen for temples, can you please add two pieces of information to it? Specifically:

    What are the god's spheres?
    How many worshippers of the god are in the fort?

I can get that information from the new location menu but not from the established location menu and it drives me crazy.

That makes sense, yeah, I wanted that myself in testing.  Don't recall if I left a note, but that's easily remedied.

Quote from: JesterHell696
Given that you're going to be selling DF Premium commercially on Steam and have a professional publisher I feel the need to ask, have you or Kitfox given any thought to how you will implement adventure mode romance, relationships and reproduction?

I'm asking this because one of the things I've seen either added in the based game of damn near every RPG or game with RPG-ish elements is the romance options/companions, Mass effect, Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, The Elder Scrolls, Fable, Stardew Valley, Divinity: Original Sin, Crusader Kings 2, The Guild, The Sims 1-4 etc.

I just can't help but feel that there is going to be a clamouring for that option once DF goes mainSteam.

For the record my vote is for the Sims style "Woohoo" but only because I know the very real risks with anything more.... detailed...

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083829#msg8083829
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083830#msg8083830

Yeah, the replies there are about all we have, just the current dev notes.  If things like hugging and so forth join, uh, pet animal and spit in the interaction list, that wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it would get incredibly far beyond that in terms of those options in local play.  Having a short 'wait screen' style bar pass for the rest is fine, probably.  Though, yeah, we haven't made specific plans or had Kitfox conversations about this.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
Are you not showing the night-creature descriptions in Adventurer character creation on purpose ('cos, "doh I'm a useless blob" is Fun), or is it something you haven't gotten around to doing yet?

And will experiments get variations (skin, hair colour, eyes, etc). It's kind of sad to see their completely blank "Appearance" tab. Even gorlaks get a brief eye/skin description there.

Ha ha, that was again one of those things where during testing, I played an experiment, curious as to what sort it was, and then when I got to the blank page, I said to myself "ah, that sucks" and went to look at my description after I started, and noted down that chargen should have at least the basic description available.  But I didn't get there!

Yeah, I forget the frills oftentimes with the generated critters, and there are a few annoying complications to hooking them up (keeping track of whether they have skin or scales or eyes or whatever and which tokens, etc., which is already done for basic tissues and attacks, but just a little irritating to manage.)  We'll get there at some point, especially now that generated creatures are way more apparent than they were before.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2898 on: February 01, 2020, 04:23:54 am »

Interesting replies, thanks Toady.
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2899 on: February 01, 2020, 04:35:45 am »

Thank you for the answers as always! Looking forward to this DevLog!
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2900 on: February 01, 2020, 05:05:57 am »

Thanks for the answers. I feel extremely stupid for having tried a bunch of convoluted stuff with summoning when the answer was just the [CREATURE] token you posted.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2901 on: February 01, 2020, 05:06:33 am »

Thanks for the answers!

It's been nice to see here and over at Reddit for the past couple of days that despite being still ver .01, a lot of people are managing to play and enjoy all the new weird and wonderful features, especially in Adventurer.
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ZM5

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2902 on: February 01, 2020, 07:54:43 am »

Hate to ask another question so soon after the last one, but is there a token for summoning a creature onto a specific tile rather than randomly? Been trying with CONTEXT_LOCATION and CONTEXT_CREATURE_OR_LOCATION but it always seems to pop the summon onto the caster's tile - not sure if I'm setting things up correctly or if thats a current limitation.

EDIT: Before I forget - whats the token that marks a creature as a necromancer experiment? I don't think I've seen it in extracted raws yet.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 11:09:05 am by ZM5 »
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Molay

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2903 on: February 01, 2020, 08:10:22 am »


for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.

Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy,  unless they're being attacked in melee.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2904 on: February 01, 2020, 08:42:50 am »

Thanks for the answers!
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2905 on: February 01, 2020, 10:22:02 am »


for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.

Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy,  unless they're being attacked in melee.


Probably won't happen until the Army dev arc. I suppose it could be fixed during Steam release if it causes a big enough problem for newbs.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 10:26:16 am by Bumber »
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2906 on: February 01, 2020, 02:19:34 pm »

Thanks for the answers, Toady. And for the release, even with the missing features it's a lot of fun so far. :)
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EternalCaveDragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2907 on: February 01, 2020, 10:46:42 pm »

Thanks for the new release and the answers, Toady! I'm especially glad to see summoning is a lot simpler than it was appearing to be in the modding thread. Best of luck on the bug fixes!
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Warlord255

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2908 on: February 01, 2020, 11:15:54 pm »

Great and merciful Toad, this humble servant of Modding beseeches your wisdom!

Summoning and conjuration are insane godsends, but will we see any adjustments before the Big Wait?

Three come to mind for items:

First, temporary item summons to prevent potential clutter. The tag exists for creature summons but not items. This could be a problem for fort mode if you have something that, say, conjures a vast surplus of swords.

Second, equipping items. Behavior tests so far have units failing to grab/grasp/wear conjured weapons and equipment. I surmise this was never meant to be given to non-players, but it could be handy.

Third, summoning items in random/target locations, as with unit summons, doesn't seem to work. They can only be spawned on top of existing units, which has led to only one warfare application so far - conjuring water and lava on top of a creature simultaneously to "obsidianize" them. With point-and-shoot targeting we might see more peaceful uses, like wall building... or some Cask of Amontillado business.

Forgive this servant of modding for his hubris! Do as thou wilt, o master of the Great Work!
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Schmaven

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2909 on: February 02, 2020, 12:18:03 am »


for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.

Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy,  unless they're being attacked in melee.


I've noticed that when well trained (legendary in most categories), they tend to work as expected.  My marksdwarves will stand a few tiles back in an open field and just shoot as the melee squad keeps the target at bay.  And my lone marksdwarves will shoot, run away, shoot, and repeat until they are forced into melee. 

How trained are your marksdwarves?
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