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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1166985 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2910 on: February 02, 2020, 12:41:34 am »


for a long time marksdwarves (I only know fort mode) behave in an, admittedly darven, stupid manner. Even while still having bolts, they actively seek to engage enemies in melee rather than firing from a distance. This can lead to stunning acrobatics at time to even reach the enemy.

Any chance we could see a fix to that behavior? Even if in an open field, I'd expect marksdwarves to first fire all their bolts before running up to the enemy,  unless they're being attacked in melee.


I've noticed that when well trained (legendary in most categories), they tend to work as expected.  My marksdwarves will stand a few tiles back in an open field and just shoot as the melee squad keeps the target at bay.  And my lone marksdwarves will shoot, run away, shoot, and repeat until they are forced into melee. 

How trained are your marksdwarves?
The problem comes when they run out of bolts.
Instead of hanging back and letting the guys with melee weapons finish the job, or going to get more bolts, if there's a clear path they'll charge and try to do it themselves using their crossbows as clubs (fairly ineffectively).

Something for the army arc though when tactics, formations and such are looked at. We might see something with the Improved Sieges improvements coming after Steam, but the main focus is slightly different there.
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Lemunde

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2911 on: February 02, 2020, 01:21:33 am »

This isn't really a question but I read the conversation involving lag in populated areas and thought I could give a couple of recommendations to help with this.  I think it would help to find a way to slow down the conversations,  maybe have NPCs take a turn or two to ponder what they're going to say before they say it.  Another thing that would probably help would be to slow down the movement speed of NPCs in highly populated areas while not in combat.  Maybe have them stroll or creep instead of using they're walking speed. I think both of these ideas would help not only with performance but would also make the gameplay smoother and more realistic.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 02:46:37 am by Lemunde »
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JesterHell696

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2912 on: February 02, 2020, 02:13:29 am »


Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083829#msg8083829
PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8083830#msg8083830

Yeah, the replies there are about all we have, just the current dev notes.  If things like hugging and so forth join, uh, pet animal and spit in the interaction list, that wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it would get incredibly far beyond that in terms of those options in local play.  Having a short 'wait screen' style bar pass for the rest is fine, probably.  Though, yeah, we haven't made specific plans or had Kitfox conversations about this.

Thanks for the answers, as always it is much appreciated. :)

The thought process that lead to this was reading Shonai's question about childhood friends becoming lovers.

  • I read Shonai's question about childhood friends becoming lovers.
  • I wondered if the same was true for battlefield friends.
  • Adventurers party are a type of battle brothers/sisters which should lead to the same type of friendships forming.
  • Not being able to form such friendships in adventure mode is a noticeable discrepancy.
  • If childhood friendships and battlefield friendships result in increased chanced of becoming lovers then adventurer party friendships should too.
  • How do Toady and Kitfox think the issues around adventure mode romance should be handled.

So I did what I've always done and jumps start to the end and forgot about the in-between stuff, I actually wanted to ask about battlefield friendships effect on romance/lovers and their place in adventure mode but got distracted and forgot.   :-[

I guess I'll just ask now for next month ;)


So I forgot some questions I had, I'll ask them now for next month, if they get answered in the mean time no biggie.

-Edit- removed redundant question -Edit-

Do you think Battlefield friendships fit adventure mode party dynamics or is the relationship between the members of a long term adventurer party its own unique thing?

I personally haven't found a case in legends yet but do people seek revenge on the behalf of family, friends and lovers or do they only avenge themselves?

-Edit- removed answered question -Edit-

-Edit- Removed leading question -Edit-


I let my mind runaway again.  :P


Probably in exactly the same way as Fortress Mode (as far as the sex part goes anyway). That is, invisibly. Easily managed while passing time while in the company of a spouse/lover in Adventurer or while retired.

As for actual romance and such, Toady has threatened bad poetry recitals and there are pages of suggestions over in the suggestions forum on procgen cultural courting rituals.

While it's in the dev notes, it's all so far in the future that it's not likely to have been considered in such great detail yet.

There are multiple ways to implement romance and reproduction, off screen/loading bar/wait screen, a dance style performance "you make love to Urist mcLover",  I while I didn't really think that a play by play sex mini game was in the cards but it is technically a possibility, Steam does allow pornographic games in their store now so its not a issue there.

I remember reading a suggestion discussion on adventure mode romance/sex and it quickly became a debate about how much abstraction was acceptable and the risks of adding too much detail, mostly because of He who must not be named and how any addition to romance, like hand holding, hugging or kissing would make his inevitable return easier.

I just wondered where Toady stands, do you not have any of these options because of the risk? do you mitigate those risks by cutting some options but leaving a romantic "wasteland" with few mostly "sterile" options or do you just say "fuck it" and go balls deep into the controversy for those click baity news articles because there's "no such thing as bad publicity".

This is why I included Kitfox in the question, as a publisher they'll have a much better understanding of how much detail Toady can put into DF before it becomes a untenable risk to the product, It seems like the direction Toady is leaning is "off screen/loading bar" which is perfectly understandable given the sensitivity of the subject and the risks of getting it wrong in the court of public opinion.


I guess that while I accept that this is how it works I do find it weird that gouging people eyes out, disembowelling them and systematically breaking all their limbs is acceptable but Sex isn't, so I wondered if, given that DF is moving to be more commercial product with a professional publisher, there had been consideration given to this issue.

How do you best handle the implementation of romance and reproduction without burning DF to the ground while still allowing enough options to make romance a fun and engaging enough activity for adventure mode players to actually use? seem like walking a tightrope.  ???


Yes, by the time adventure mode romance is implemented it's likely to be against a backdrop of full myth, magic, and law frameworks.

Given that Toady quoted you as well as  Shonai I'm guessing he also sees it as a long ways off, which is fair and up until he announced steam I would have agreed without question, but now that Steam is getting "DF premium" version I just can't help but wonder how releasing on steam and getting an influx of new players will effect those priorities, I can see a subset of new players clamouring for friendships and romance options/companions as it is something that has become kind of standard for RPGs, hence my short list of games with romance options.





But FotF isn't really the place to discuss this in depth and I'm not going to be the guy that Necros a sex thread, I'll leave that job to the more sexually adventurous of us.  :P
I'll see myself out.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 08:08:05 am by JesterHell696 »
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2913 on: February 02, 2020, 02:36:48 am »

Hi. I answered based on the times Toady has discussed the matter (podcast, maybe dftalk, fotf, etc). And, as Toady said, that's all there is, random speculation.

He also already answered the question about friends becoming lovers.

And Adventurers don't have romance yet. And won't until it's implemented far in the future. Many, many things happen in Worldgen that don't happen in game yet.They all need to make it into the game at some point, romance isn't somehow special that way.
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Silverwing235

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2914 on: February 02, 2020, 03:09:16 am »

(snip)

Summoning and conjuration are insane godsends, but will we see any adjustments before the Big Wait?

Three come to mind for items:

First, temporary item summons to prevent potential clutter. The tag exists for creature summons but not items. This could be a problem for fort mode if you have something that, say, conjures a vast surplus of swords.

Second, equipping items. Behavior tests so far have units failing to grab/grasp/wear conjured weapons and equipment. I surmise this was never meant to be given to non-players, but it could be handy.

Third, summoning items in random/target locations, as with unit summons, doesn't seem to work. They can only be spawned on top of existing units, which has led to only one warfare application so far - conjuring water and lava on top of a creature simultaneously to "obsidianize" them. With point-and-shoot targeting we might see more peaceful uses, like wall building... or some Cask of Amontillado business.

(/snip)
First time I've had to do this for somebody else, your text does however need proper colouring, so the eyes of the One Toad may discern queries from the usual babble around those parts. (Just color=limegreen in square brackets, then close as usual.)
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JesterHell696

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2915 on: February 02, 2020, 03:25:55 am »

Hi. I answered based on the times Toady has discussed the matter (podcast, maybe dftalk, fotf, etc). And, as Toady said, that's all there is, random speculation.

Hence my asking in FotF if there been any more on the sensitive subject since DF is at least, in part going commercial.

He also already answered the question about friends becoming lovers.

I looked it over again, I thought the response was just about childhood friendships, must have missed it being a general "friendship-style relationships" in my rush to get the answer to my question, I'll edit that out.

And Adventurers don't have romance yet. And won't until it's implemented far in the future. Many, many things happen in Worldgen that don't happen in game yet.They all need to make it into the game at some point, romance isn't somehow special that way.

There is lot that still needs to go in, but I'm pretty sure something was said about how now thanks to the Steam release things are more open to being shuffled around as necessary, depending upon how the Steam release goes and what the major concerns of the new player turn out to be.

Personally I can see the noticeable discrepancy of no adventure mode relationships when they exist in both world gen and fortress mode being brought up, how important it ends up being is questionable but I personally can't rule it out altogether from the post-Steam pre-Magic work, much like making more of the skills usable in adventure mode, some people are not going to want to wait until after a multi-year development arc for their adventurer to finally be able to have a family.

Personally I want skills like farming, animal training, brewing, cooking etc in adventure mode more then relationships but its impossible to know what the masses want until they get here, so I'm speculating and thinking, if relationships becomes a major demand, what is the plan? because unlike most skills there are some rather dangerous landmines with the relationship implementation question.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 03:27:53 am by JesterHell696 »
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"The long-term goal is to create a fantasy world simulator in which it is possible to take part in a rich history, occupying a variety of roles through the course of several games." Bay 12 DF development page

"My stance is that Dwarf Fortress is first and foremost a simulation and that balance is a secondary objective that is always secondary to it being a simulation while at the same time cannot be ignored completely." -Neonivek

PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2916 on: February 02, 2020, 04:13:03 am »

:

Mage beast and semi-mega beast reproduce during world gen, how do they go about their reproduction? do giants form relationships Off screen/invisibly or is it just mindless mating/reproduction?

Since some animals do form pair bonds for life would it make sense for at least some Mega beasts and Semi-Mega beast to form relationships and track family members so they can seek revenge or render assistance to each other or are they intended to not have such motivations?

:

All current mega beasts are of animal intelligence, and so, presumably, breed the same way as animals, i.e. viable male impregnates viable female when opportunity arises. It's worked with the few cases I've had opportunity to try with captured pairs.

Intelligent semi mega beasts presumably use the same breeding model as other "wild" intelligent creatures (such as troglodytes), i.e. the animal breeding model. This can be seen when a group camps in a cavern. I don't know if anyone has tried to set up any breeding programs for intelligent semi mega beasts, though, but it has probably been done.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2917 on: February 02, 2020, 05:49:26 am »

:

Mage beast and semi-mega beast reproduce during world gen, how do they go about their reproduction? do giants form relationships Off screen/invisibly or is it just mindless mating/reproduction?

Since some animals do form pair bonds for life would it make sense for at least some Mega beasts and Semi-Mega beast to form relationships and track family members so they can seek revenge or render assistance to each other or are they intended to not have such motivations?

:
Intelligent semi mega beasts presumably use the same breeding model as other "wild" intelligent creatures (such as troglodytes), i.e. the animal breeding model. This can be seen when a group camps in a cavern. I don't know if anyone has tried to set up any breeding programs for intelligent semi mega beasts, though, but it has probably been done.

Fully intelligent megabeasts or otherwise for 44.12 rely on marriage rules and it happens offscreen in w.g, only slow learners like 'Giants' rely on animal-level mating given the practices you can partake in to breed troglodytes and trolls by breeding them on a chain or in cages near compatible mates. Though its fully possible now on 47.01 that cyclopian family groups could be introduced to one another in fortress mode through controlled introduction to one another on a chain in the hopes of them becoming lovers, though its not much of a existance.

The purposes for breeding cyclopses would be a difficult lengthy process, that isn't nearly as productive as breeding trolls (putting in pits, slow down siegers, long lifespan for cage exhibits) for albiet a cyclops has much more potential (once a few years has elapsed) to be used as defensive failguard or guardian of a pit. Taking into account megabeast caps too.
  • The civilized concept of marriage not being applicable to megabeasts and uncivilized creatures and thinking about life-bond/relationship status of a mate -monogomy is a nice thought but probably warrants a suggestion thread instead
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2918 on: February 02, 2020, 08:20:49 am »

It can be noted that Giants aren't actually slow learners, while Ettins are (outdated knowledge from last week, i.e. the very end of 0.44.12, but I doubt the raws have changed). I was also under the impression that the (semi)megabeast caps were for world gen, and their numbers weren't controlled once history starts, but that's certainly not something I've had confirmed.
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FAA

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2919 on: February 02, 2020, 09:50:13 am »

Item materials - as there are seemingly no restrictions on item materials, the game creates immersion-breaking gold, silver or tetrahedrite barrels in taverns, and every table/chair is made of different material. Even kobold forts have golden tables, even though there is no other loot to speak of - they lack weapons and are semi-naked. Do you plan to restrict materials used for things like chairs or tables to materials that are appropriate, and make them more uniform?
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2920 on: February 02, 2020, 11:00:48 am »

Item materials - as there are seemingly no restrictions on item materials, the game creates immersion-breaking gold, silver or tetrahedrite barrels in taverns, and every table/chair is made of different material. Even kobold forts have golden tables, even though there is no other loot to speak of - they lack weapons and are semi-naked. Do you plan to restrict materials used for things like chairs or tables to materials that are appropriate, and make them more uniform?

The answer to such questions is usually "Yes, at some point in the future."
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2921 on: February 02, 2020, 03:58:12 pm »

Item materials - as there are seemingly no restrictions on item materials, the game creates immersion-breaking gold, silver or tetrahedrite barrels in taverns, and every table/chair is made of different material. Even kobold forts have golden tables, even though there is no other loot to speak of - they lack weapons and are semi-naked. Do you plan to restrict materials used for things like chairs or tables to materials that are appropriate, and make them more uniform?
Hi. You've now asked the same question with variations 3 times. Why don't sites have realistic furniture/materials?

Rather than asking repeatedly here, how about making a Suggestion? How do you think we can apply balance to a game in which a huge variety of resources are available (to make the site management part of the game any fun at all) with "realism". Take a search there first of course, you'll find many detailed threads on resources and the economy for when it's introduced far in the future.

That is if "Realistic Fantasy" is a goal at all? If dwarves are pulling more tetrahedrite out of the ground than they know what to do with, why would you not make a table out of it? One player site seems to be able to pull out enough material to decorate every surrounding dwarf, elf, human and kobold site. And there are hundreds of dwarf fortresses operating throughout the world.

--edit
Kobolds live in caves which are generally full of loot. Your kobolds probably took over an empty fort (they don't build forts themselves) which already had a golden table.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 04:09:32 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2922 on: February 02, 2020, 04:41:58 pm »

-
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 04:59:35 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2923 on: February 02, 2020, 04:48:53 pm »

Hi. You've now asked the same question with variations 3 times. Why don't sites have realistic furniture/materials?

Your version of the question is overly vague. The original gives 3 examples: Tetrahedrite and other ores are stone, which make large pots in DF, not barrels. The material selection for furniture is hodge-podge (more an aesthetics issue than realism.) Kobolds don't have access to masonry (but as you mentioned, the prior owners of the fort built the furniture.)
I don't have a "version of the question". I could dig out and quote the other questions he posted on the topic, but that might make me seem a bit more stalkerish than I already do.  :)
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2924 on: February 02, 2020, 04:59:21 pm »

I don't have a "version of the question". I could dig out and quote the other questions he posted on the topic, but that might make me seem a bit more stalkerish than I already do.  :)
I hadn't noticed he was the one who posted before, which Toady already answered. Thought you were talking just about the most recent post.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 05:03:39 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?
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