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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1669728 times)

ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3645 on: November 17, 2020, 03:36:05 pm »

Will there be a fix of famously useless professions / workshop entries before Steam release? As far as I am aware it's only a matter of adding some entries in raw files so it should be really easy compared to all the bug-fixing.
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3646 on: November 17, 2020, 04:56:16 pm »

Will there be a fix of famously useless professions / workshop entries before Steam release? As far as I am aware it's only a matter of adding some entries in raw files so it should be really easy compared to all the bug-fixing.
Which are these? The alchemist profession? The liquid fire a mog hopper juice reactions? Asking out of curiosity, and as a clearer question will lead to a clearer answer as well.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3647 on: November 17, 2020, 05:15:18 pm »

Will there be a fix of famously useless professions / workshop entries before Steam release? As far as I am aware it's only a matter of adding some entries in raw files so it should be really easy compared to all the bug-fixing.
Everything is really easy compared to hard things. Problem is there are thousands and thousands of them and some things (like making a UI) have to be prioritized over....whatever you're asking for here. Probably ought to clarify. Things that are "famous" to a niche portion of forum people likely aren't known through subtle hints to anyone else, including the people who make the game.
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MC

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3648 on: November 17, 2020, 06:07:34 pm »

I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.

Honestly I'd rate the fact that migrants can waste their lives learning terrible skills that make even stuff like beekeeping seem good in comparison is probably more subtly impactful to the game's experience than a lot of stuff people complain about, and I'm sure that more players have started cursing and been frustrated at waves of legendary cheesemakers than the wagon despawning bug, or raid based crashing, or the age of goblins or any of bugs that seem bigger on the surface.

Its also probably not good for getting new players in if they see skills like animal caretaking and try to figure out what it does, not knowing that the answer is "pretty much nothing".
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3649 on: November 17, 2020, 10:02:08 pm »

But as long as the information is actually available, which is what this development arc is about, there's no need to change anything.

Step 6 of tutorial, Migrant Wave, "profession=highest skill, not an actual job the dwarf needs to do. Set them to work doing whatever you need".

That's quite a bit quicker than spending years on completing the professions arc before release, isn't it?
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Su

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3650 on: November 18, 2020, 02:56:25 am »

regarding your latest blog post - will the "v-q-t-k look-and-do-stuff command set" be unified into one keyboard command? it's always tripped me up that they all do slightly different subsets of what feels like should be the same thing.

also, don't take this as a complaint or anything, i'm just curious - how often do you update the development page?
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Silverwing235

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3651 on: November 18, 2020, 05:44:19 am »

I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive at their fort to know how useless that skill is.

Honestly I'd rate the fact that migrants can waste their lives learning terrible skills that make even stuff like beekeeping seem good in comparison is probably more subtly impactful to the game's experience than a lot of stuff people complain about, and I'm sure that more players have started cursing and been frustrated at waves of legendary cheesemakers than the wagon despawning bug, or raid based crashing, or the age of goblins or any of bugs that seem bigger on the surface.

Its also probably not good for getting new players in if they see skills like animal caretaking and try to figure out what it does, not knowing that the answer is "pretty much nothing".


Yeah, don't mind me...FTFY?
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ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3652 on: November 18, 2020, 08:43:53 am »

I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.

Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.

On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 09:49:39 am by ror6ax »
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ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3653 on: November 18, 2020, 09:50:54 am »

Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3654 on: November 18, 2020, 10:09:15 am »

Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175041 It already exists. ;)

I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.
Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.

On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.

These are reading more and more like suggestions. Put them over in the suggestions forum for better handling (especially if you have more).

Silverwing235

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3655 on: November 18, 2020, 02:04:52 pm »

Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175041 It already exists. ;)

I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.
Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.

On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.

These are reading more and more like suggestions. Put them over in the suggestions forum for better handling (especially if you have more).

My apologies to all, then, for trying to help - it just seems to be what happens when you try to include proper context to the original question, hence the limegreening on my part.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3656 on: November 18, 2020, 04:16:01 pm »

Can we have a separate thread for Steam achievement ideas?
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175041 It already exists. ;)

I think he's probably talking about stuff like fish dissection. I'm pretty sure most people who play the game have had enough legendary fish dissectors arrive and their fort to know how useless that skill is.
Basically I meant extending extracts made in various workshops - https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Extracts is very empty.

On a similar note, making cooked foods cost less and paper industry products cost more would also be a simple fix, but one that prevents severe imbalance that leads to either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard gameplay experience without any reason whatsoever.

These are reading more and more like suggestions. Put them over in the suggestions forum for better handling (especially if you have more).

My apologies to all, then, for trying to help - it just seems to be what happens when you try to include proper context to the original question, hence the limegreening on my part.
Your original question then was, "Will you expand the workshop extracts system for Steam release (as it seems incomplete)"?

Likely no. Toady's previously answered that the focus of this release is not to add new content unless absolutely necessary (to fit with the new UI, replace the hated labour system, etc). The more new stuff is added, the more likely it is to break everything else. Better he spends the bug fixing phase fixing UI bugs than something he's accidentally broken elsewhere (often happens in as complex a simulation as this that things which seem unrelated all effect one another and break down terribly).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 04:19:12 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3657 on: November 18, 2020, 05:13:04 pm »

Just curious, is there an integration test suite or every release gets manually playtested for not introducing bugs?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3658 on: November 18, 2020, 05:27:15 pm »

Just curious, is there an integration test suite or every release gets manually playtested for not introducing bugs?
Playtested by whom? Scamps?

I don't mean crash bugs (Toady has a set of tools for testing his new features, yes). I mean "adding mugs to the game causes cats to die of alcohol poisoning" bugs. How would an automated system ever know to look for that. Which leaves you with letting Zach and Scamps test the game, or thousands of players. And previously he tried the "closed set of playtesters" thing and bugs were found by the thousands of players anyway. Delay with zero result.

(Steam release will apparently get some closed playtesting anyhow - we'll see how effective that is...).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 05:32:12 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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ror6ax

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3659 on: November 18, 2020, 05:52:36 pm »

Just curious, is there an integration test suite or every release gets manually playtested for not introducing bugs?
Playtested by whom? Scamps?

I'm starting to feel like I'm upsetting people by asking questions to what is supposed to be a AMA thread.
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