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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1537379 times)

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3975 on: May 01, 2021, 09:09:39 am »

Since you've mentioned there'd be more updates after the steam release but before the myth and magic arc is there any chance any of those updates could add ways for player adventurers to acquire combat magic similar to what sentient undead can use to help tide us over for the big wait?

Everything is moddable, there's already ways to turn yourself into supernatural entities or put yourself in the correct places to recieve the powerful combat abilities (reading custom spells, turning yourself into a class of creature who can access them, good old fashioned necromancy) you can twist the question into parameters wherein more of those supernatural elements are in the game (which really probably if Toady crossed the Rubicon would need to develop the slider, wg, or init controls to settle the "more magic bad" versus "more magic good crowd")
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3976 on: May 01, 2021, 04:40:28 pm »

Quote from: /u/bbkilmister on reddit via clinodev
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265634#msg8265634
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265645#msg8265645

Ha ha, sadly, no, I was talking about buildings generally that currently operate on one z level.  The z-location variable is all over the place, so even rewriting, say, the bedrooms as locations still involves a lot of rewrites everywhere to get them to work.

Quote from: vcd14
Will it be possible to play the older versions of DF to be available to play on Steam and itch? I understand that remaking them on the same scale the current version is being updated, but making them available to play as they are available now on bay12?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265937#msg8265937

Yeah, I dunno - I don't think the hosting becomes an issue, since they'll be letting us host the new Classic version up there as a free branch, so having the old ones as playable selectable branches might be technically possible.  But the support issues might be too much, since we shouldn't be doing support for them, and it's potentially confusing.

Quote
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
If you have an idea at this early stage, roughly speaking, how will the steam workshop handle mods and their compatibility/conflicts? That is, different mods making changes to the same raw files or objects?

Are the graphics raws (ie `[OBJECT:GRAPHICS]`) likely to change much/be made obsolete (compared to now) when the Steam release comes out?

And in general I guess, what sort of changes can we expect to happen in the raw files for the Steam release (and also the accompanying Classic version update)?
Quote from: squamous
3. How will the steam modding workshop function after the steam release? Are there any plans to use it or will mods just remain on the normal uploading websites?

clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8266351#msg8266351
Mr_Crabman (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8267617#msg8267617
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8267625#msg8267625
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8267647#msg8267647
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8271032#msg8271032

I haven't redone the raw loading yet.  I'm going to try to do at least something there with compatibility, and we're going to use steam workshop.  I know that all can get complicated with load orders and all that, so it might just have to reject mods that try to create the same objects, although I might be able to check if the text is identical for a given loaded object and then just pass it over the second time and accept the rest of the mod.  But I don't think I can meaningfully do anything like merges on a single object, since so much can break with that.

Yeah, we'll likely continue to have some information in Meph's thread about the format changes.  The regular creature stuff still looks about the same, I think, there's just a ton of new stuff you can do.

There have been some other non-graphical raw changes, but it's really not something that comes up a lot in the Steam process.  I fixed some bugs with the tree branching that became clearer when they were made graphical, for instance, and recently added colors for all the alcohol materials (since it's the actual verbal/object color, it goes in the raws and not the graphics.)

Quote
Quote from: Relative_Programming
will there be smooth scrolling of the view of the current area in the Steam version?
Quote from: Mr_Crabman
4: I know smoothly moving creatures between tiles instead of blinking from tile to tile won't be happening on the release of Premium (from what you said before), but is it on the table for being added later at some point?

There are some technical difficulties with the custom engine here, so what's normally pretty trivial is a whole thing in our setup.  I'm not sure where it'll land currently.  I don't think I can switch engines before the first steam release - afterward it looks like we might have more resources for such an overhaul perhaps.  But we could still get to smooth scrolling and smooth movement before then.  They have related but different issues, so we could also get one and not the other.

Quote from: Mr_Crabman
Will there be a way to change the positions and/or sizes of some UI elements (buttons, menus etc), either as an ingame option/setting, or via modding?

Uthimienure: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8270818#msg8270818

It wouldn't be too hard to set it up to load that way (all of the elements have single anchor points currently, and the interface reacts pretty well to changes in terms of adapting to changes as long as the overall composition doesn't change), but I'm a little worried that it won't like completely new placements, the way it defines relative to the boundaries of the working area at times (where the working area is either all of or just the center of the screen, mainly for ultrawide monitors.)  Mods would have to be careful about overlaps.  Additionally, there are equations on some of the screens to manage window resizes, where certain interface elements are moved or borders dropped to support smaller and smaller window sizes, within reason, and that sort of behavior is a little harder to put in a moddable format.

But it all seems sort of possible, and I don't think I've written myself into a corner badly.

Quote from: Mr_Crabman
Also, if on a higher elevation layer, can creatures below be seen on the terrain?

We haven't done it yet, but it should be free when I code it in.  Just left it on the to-do list way back then for whatever reason.  Items/buildings/everything else too.

Quote from: squamous
1. What are the factors that cause bandit camps to spawn besides the banditry percentage token in the entity file? I've genned a world that's all mountains/tundra and no water at all, which seems to have prevented them from being constructed. I'm wondering if there's something I could tweak to alter this.
2. Besides being able to create reanimated minions, what are the factors which influence an NPC to build a necromancer tower? I'm trying to create a situation where a creature spreads the necromancy syndrome via a werebeast bite, but the victims never seem to build towers. Is it a matter of having the syndrome alter their personalities so they want to build towers, or something more complex? I know the only people who get slabs in the first place desire immortality, so that might have something to do with it.
4. Are there any pre-Big Wait changes to the armor and weapon raws planned?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8271032#msg8271032

1. The camps are created at the end of world gen from the wandering bandit groups that haven't built forts or found other places to to live.  They pick a random walkable square in the region they are wandering in and it needs to be within 10 tiles of the site they are targeting.  For the wandering group creation, they need the banditry percentage and a town with a population of 50 with a single cultural population of at least 12 to draw from.  Then they require an inhabitated target site.  It looks like it does force this to be a 'city' type currently (that is a human-style market town, though it doesn't need to be humans specifically if there are civs modded to have that site type).  So maybe that's the issue?  The tundra or mountain border should be fine themselves, but of course in vanilla that will stop cities from showing up.  No idea why I have the city type requirement - it might have made sense a decade ago but is probably bad now.

2. Yeah, they require an animated zombie workforce to build it right now, so only animators will do it.  They also need to be in a wandering group.  These rarely come about from refugee groups or disbanded mercenary groups, but the main ways are through banditry or through the typical necromancer path.  The necromancer path comes about from having the intrigue plot 'undead animator world conquest', ha ha ha...  this plot should be given to any animator that has a dream of ruling the world.  The necromancers get a huge boost to anxiety and distrust, which causes them to have that dream more often (this is sort of a hack, as I recollect, since there aren't a ton of other examples like this.)  If the werebeast bite gives them the typical syndrome, they should be put in that category, but maybe something is slipping up - it does reevaluate the goals of everybody in worldgen that receives a 'change personality' effect.  I'm not sure where else it might be screwing up.

4. We don't have specific plans for the more granular 'combat arc' style stuff, but expect that some things will happen there.

Quote from: Spriggans
1. Will the graphical release have keyboard shortcuts ? Asking because it seems slower to use the mouse in certain situations...
2. Will the game have full keyboard-only support, or will you must use the mouse at some points ?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274566#msg8274566
Mr_Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274568#msg8274568

1/2. Yeah, that's the plan.  But moving cursors around for designations, for instance, is unavoidably going to involve lots of presses.  So if the mouse is at all usable for a given player, it'll often be the way to go.

Quote from: falcc
Will universal beards for dwarves ever qualify as an INIT setting? If so, what category of work do you think it would fall under? It's not hard to mod in, but is it a tonal slider kind of thing? Something that's more suitable for the cultural updates when there's generated genders to go around? If it's never in the INIT is there any intention to direct Steam users who really expect one experience or the other from Dwarves to the file where you already tutorialize it?

Rose: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274620#msg8274620
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274631#msg8274631
clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274694#msg8274694
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274710#msg8274710
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274859#msg8274859
Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274864#msg8274864
Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274888#msg8274888
falcc (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8274913#msg8274913

I imagine when we approach gender next time it's just going to be a much broader rethink, and I'm not sure the old tutorialization is going to be a thing anymore, but dwarf settings could very well look that way over in editor/mythgen specs.  It's also harder to get at/think about the text raws for Steam players since they download the games but won't then select open file location and then read through the text files, so we likely won't be going that way when we get to universe gen/slider stuff, and have more UI-based options instead, along the lines of how we've talked about the myth/editor specs generally.  I had wanted to get to a first overhaul before the myth/editor changes, since we were like "Yeah!" 25 months ago, but I'm still stuck over in Steam update land so who knows.

Over at Steam Workshop, where people are working on the txt files and putting stuff up for download, or over on the wiki, I expect we'll continue to see people working with txt files of course.  And whatever gender options we get in the new format will have mods that spring up.  Modding education generally is something we don't tend to focus on since people take it up on the forum and wiki way way beyond what we could do - the comments we made in the raws were helpful to get some people started, but especially once Steam hides the files by default it'll have to be somewhere else most likely.  There's the forum and wiki, and Steam also hosts guides I think.

Quote from: Mr_Crabman
1: How do you expect multi tile creatures (when they become a thing in however many years) to work?

By this I mean, wagons are 3x3 at all times and cannot change their shape/footprint at all, only rotate (so they're "stiff"), and if they were 2x3 instead presumably they would still be able to rotate, but only still be 2x3 rectangles (ie they don't have limbs that can move separate from the body, and they are basically just boxes shape-wise).

So basically, would other creatures also be "stiff" and non-complex like wagons, and if not, do you expect this do be a problem for the premium version? As an example I can almost imagine a long snakelike creature that can move diagonally (because it's not stiff), but this would be quite disjointed looking in a tileset (though ultimately it would be a worth it even if it looks a bit strange).

2: Maybe a silly question and I expect the answer is yes, but would multi-tile creatures be viewed from the top down (like wagons in the Premium tileset) as opposed to a side profile (like the large creatures are currently)?

3: How big would be big enough to justify a creature being multi-tile?

5: Has the situation with Linux support for the Steam version changed since last time you were asked?

6: When the siege update comes, will siegers have to have a supply line/eat food brought from the outside or with them?

7: Will the likes of clowns and other procedurally generated creatures have some of their generation logic exposed to the raws one day (eg, adding new body types/parts and abilities/interactions that can be had and the like)?

8: You've said you're considering Steam achievements for encouraging players to try new things they might not otherwise ("start a honey industry" for example), but what are your thoughts on achievements for challenges to undertake, like "live on an embark for X years without doing X", or events like "encounter your first X"?

9: To what extent will magic generation be controllable? You've mentioned for example having no deities, or having a slider for "how magical" a world is overall, but how far/specific would this control go? I guess this ties in to question 6 a bit as well.

10: Other than the "stingers" for announcements you mentioned elsewhere, how much new music will be in the Premium release?

1: I've tried a few things back with ASCII, and none of it has been super satisfying.  The boxes are relatively easy but sort of silly, and the stuff with articulated limbs starts to get way over into 3D modeling keyframe animation land and just feels ridiculous.  Specifically on the tileset-diagonal issue, since our creatures can overgrow their individual tiles up to a 3x2 already, we can to some extent hide diagonal edge issues.  Even the spheres sometimes used in tile games for snaky creatures look okay (kinda like Centipede.)

But in the new graphical environment, who knows!  I haven't thought about it yet.  The boxy approach of course doesn't look nearly as bad if you can just draw a giant whatever, though it doesn't add new mechanics like limbs do.

2: No reason why it would have to be top down, I think, though it is a bit ambiguous with the new oversized 3x2 (but single tile) creatures.

3: Technically any creature that gets out of the 2m by 2m cooould be multitile, but that would just be too much.  And of course, using that measurement, once you get to the really big creatures, you pop up to 10 or more tile creatures really easily.  So not easy to answer.  Games without grids just have the advantage here.

5: The linux/mac situation is the same as ever.

6: Supply lines are important, but I imagine we won't be focusing on that side without the economy/resource tracking stuff to back it up.

7: That was eventually the plan, though it seems destined to be a mythgen/editor sort of thing.

8: Challenges seem reasonable, I think, though maybe it leads to a sort of sameiness of stories a little?  Maybe that effect isn't so bad.  Anything we come up with wouldn't compare to the challenges people eventually set for themselves, but maybe there's some set of challenges that would make sense.

9: The prototype lets you set some parameters by sphere (fire etc.), and I imagine it'll just continue to get more complicated.

10: We've got seasons and a death spiral song so far.

Quote from: Beag
Since you've mentioned there'd be more updates after the steam release but before the myth and magic arc is there any chance any of those updates could add ways for player adventurers to acquire combat magic similar to what sentient undead can use to help tide us over for the big wait?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8275178#msg8275178

Ha ha, similar tide-over additions have come up - it's really up to us to try to restrain ourselves as much as possible, and then when we fail to do so, hopefully the results will be fun.
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3977 on: May 01, 2021, 05:45:05 pm »

Quote from: /u/bbkilmister on reddit via clinodev
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265634#msg8265634
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265645#msg8265645

Ha ha, sadly, no, I was talking about buildings generally that currently operate on one z level.  The z-location variable is all over the place, so even rewriting, say, the bedrooms as locations still involves a lot of rewrites everywhere to get them to work.


Alas! This is one of the things I really hope to see in the "Underground Rewrite!"

Me: "Look up, Urist! Seven z level vaulted ceilings! Engravings all around the center dome! It's glorious, you clod, look up!"

Urist: "I admired a fine seat recently."

Thanks as always for all the answers, and I hope your moving is going smoothly!
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3978 on: May 01, 2021, 06:58:02 pm »

Quote from: /u/bbkilmister on reddit via clinodev
"So, does this mean we can actually make multi z-level tall bed/throne rooms (if their assignment works the same way as with other zones)?"

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265634#msg8265634
clinodev (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8265645#msg8265645

Ha ha, sadly, no, I was talking about buildings generally that currently operate on one z level.  The z-location variable is all over the place, so even rewriting, say, the bedrooms as locations still involves a lot of rewrites everywhere to get them to work.


Alas! This is one of the things I really hope to see in the "Underground Rewrite!"

I dont know whether im just unimaginitive but i thought the first thing a person would probably go to would be bunk-beds to save horizontal space but maybe that's just me. Some sort of ascending ramped barracks with 2 beds on each level for compactness in a continous room or stairs directly next to each sleeping area.
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TranquilRiverGiant

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3979 on: May 02, 2021, 01:39:26 am »

Currently in adventure mode, in large towns it's not uncommon to find characters murdered in the streets from random fights (especially if there are a lot of goblins). Will these events be considered crimes when the villains release is completed, and will it be possible for adventurers to "get to the bottom of it"?
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Mr_Crabman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3980 on: May 02, 2021, 02:32:49 am »

I know that all can get complicated with load orders and all that, so it might just have to reject mods that try to create the same objects, although I might be able to check if the text is identical for a given loaded object and then just pass it over the second time and accept the rest of the mod.

What do you think of a "Minecraft resource pack"-like solution of having a menu where the player can define the load order of mods themselves, such that if a mod tries to create the same object as another mod, whatever mod is on the top of the load order would override the first version of the object? The same could go for mods trying to overwrite the same vanilla object (assuming merging objects can't be done).
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Buttery_Mess

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3981 on: May 02, 2021, 06:02:41 pm »

ThreeToe says,
Quote
children will have menial tasks to perform and keep the fortress running smoothly
, what does he mean by this? Children will help to do simple tasks, like hauling? Does this mean they'll have a limited labour menu? Now that you've taken a look at child labour, does that mean that they'll be able to, for instance, attend educational courses at guildhalls, or something, as well?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 10:16:16 am by Buttery_Mess »
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3982 on: May 02, 2021, 08:09:25 pm »

ThreeToe says,
Quote
children will have menial tasks to perform and keep the fortress running smoothly
what does he mean by this? Children will help to do simple tasks, like hauling? Does this mean they'll have a limited labour menu? Now that you've taken a look at child labour, does that mean that they'll be able to, for instance, attend educational courses at guildhalls, or something, as well?

Place a toy stockpile in one of your guildhalls and open it up to outsiders, and you may be pleasantly surprised at the results!

You might want to revise your color codes. Just add the color tag a second time before the comma after the ThreeToe quote.

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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3983 on: May 03, 2021, 02:57:24 am »

@Buttery_Mess: Like clinodev said, children can already learn from guild hall lectures (I've had a case of a mooding kid make a metal artifact as a result of it). In addition to that, they do some occasional harvesting and hauling. However, I agree it's unclear if Toady meant something beyond what's currently happening.

Edit: After reading ThreeToe's post in the May'21 report (which is what Buttery_Mess actually quoted, but my addled brain interpreted as being by ToadyOne), it seems clear kids will work more than they currently do. Hauling is a menial task, and so ought to qualify (if the things aren't too heavy, but I doubt DF will go that deep into the simulation, and dorfs just haul slower when things are heavy anyway. All those seeds, though...). Cleaning is another task that kids could logically do (I don't know if they will, of course). Since kids harvest, they might be entrusted to sow as well (should be OK with the current system, but when agriculture is overhauled to actually be a challenge you may want to have skilled dorfs sow and tend to the plants).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 07:53:51 am by PatrikLundell »
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3984 on: May 05, 2021, 05:51:35 am »

I know that all can get complicated with load orders and all that, so it might just have to reject mods that try to create the same objects, although I might be able to check if the text is identical for a given loaded object and then just pass it over the second time and accept the rest of the mod.

What do you think of a "Minecraft resource pack"-like solution of having a menu where the player can define the load order of mods themselves, such that if a mod tries to create the same object as another mod, whatever mod is on the top of the load order would override the first version of the object? The same could go for mods trying to overwrite the same vanilla object (assuming merging objects can't be done).

Or Morrowind-like, yeah. A third-party tool like Wrye Bash to be run after everything that merges all the various mods' permitted reactions or whatever isn't ideal but would be doable if mods could be folder'd up at the bare minimum, and would go a long way.

leastannoyingman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3985 on: May 11, 2021, 11:38:16 am »

  • With the myth/magic update, is there anything planned regarding evolution or corruption of different races and species (sentient and non-sentient)? This could include either initial mythical origins, "natural" evolution and mutations, hybrid species, or unnatural/magical forces and experiments.

    A famous LotR example would be how a deity corrupted Elves in order to create Orcs, or how a spirit/wizard bred Orcs to create a new breed of Uruk-hai.

    The lore in the Warcraft universe also has interesting examples - Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes all descend from Titan-forged creations made from stone and metal. However, these Titan-forged armies were afflicted by the Curse of Flesh, which was cast by the lovecraftian Old Gods who had previously been occupying the planet. Some of the now-fleshy Vrykul (Human ancestors) suddenly devolved further and shrunk from muscular 10ft+ to average human proportions, and those shrunken human babies were either exterminated or banished to another continent, where they started their own civilizations. Many of the banished Humans preserved some myths, deities, and names from their Vrykul ancestors and homeland.
    Elves in Warcraft gradually evolved when their Troll ancestors settled near the Well of Eternity (the primal magic source which later exploded), which made them wise, graceful, immortal, and kickstarted the first advanced and magical civilization (which exploded along with the Well). There's also countless examples of "corrupted" races making trades with cosmic forces and entities for great powers (or to keep their previous powers), but gradually becoming addicted, vulnerable, or deformed.

    This gets covered here and in many other Warcraft lore summaries on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmhO1LldIQw

    What's interesting is when many of these earlier/later races and civilizations continue to persist in the world and encounter each another, or form new hybrids. Sadly, I could hardly imagine how complex such branching would be to plan and implement.
     
  • Studying and accessing magic sources, or swearing allegiance to cosmic entities (or their servants) in order to magically summon/teleport creatures from other planes of existence would be badass. This includes either summoning actively in battle, or by constructing large structures/portals in order to summon/transport large amounts of such creatures, or even avatars of the cosmic entities. Of course, tapping into these forces would have huge costs or drawbacks, etc...
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3986 on: May 11, 2021, 01:12:19 pm »

1. With the myth/magic update, is there anything planned regarding evolution or corruption of different races and species (sentient and non-sentient)? This could include either initial mythical origins, "natural" evolution and mutations, hybrid species, or unnatural/magical forces and experiments.
[...]

Yes. It's been mentioned a few times, and also shown in the demo versions of Myth generator. DF Talk #24 had a mention of it:
Quote from: Toady One
[...] [The abridged version of dwarven myth] doesn't cover kobolds at all, right. Unless dwarves were made from kobolds, which can happen.
And if you open the spoiler below there's a myth demo screenshot showing goblins being cursed forms of dwarves (from this interview).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Regarding corruptions, you could consider the current experiment night creatures to be an early go at that.

Quote
2. Studying and accessing magic sources, or swearing allegiance to cosmic entities (or their servants) in order to magically summon/teleport creatures from other planes of existence would be badass. This includes either summoning actively in battle, or by constructing large structures/portals in order to summon/transport large amounts of such creatures, or even avatars of the cosmic entities. Of course, tapping into these forces would have huge costs or drawbacks, etc...

Absolutely, though there are always questions of which features are making it in first, and when. For more insight, I recommend reading some of Threetoe's stories, as the concepts that form DF are more or less shaped in them. Warriors of the Dead or Moclem are probably the most relevant to your question about summons, though for a lengthier read involving most aspects of magic I can't help but recommend Cado's Magical Journey.

And, finally, DF talk #24 (audio, transcript) is an 1-hour podcast touching on most aspects of the upcoming DF myth generation.

leastannoyingman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3987 on: May 11, 2021, 06:58:15 pm »

loads of stuff
Thanks bro. The DF Talk about myth generation blew me away.

The sphere magic suggestion thread in your signature is also really cool, and should definitely be a part of the future system:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.0

It made me think about another idea - customizably linking spheres to create new groupings. This would offer more control over primal forces and their respective deities, realms, worldly manifestations, creatures, schools of magic, religions, and their followers' motivations. Connecting these groupings to particular DF personality traits would also offer additional control.

Here's yet another Warcraft example overlaid on the DF spheres:


For example, If I want to group some spheres to match the Warcraft order of "Light", I'd connect Light, Fire, Healing, Justice, Valor, Courage, Duty, Discipline, Loyalty, Oaths, Charity, Generosity, etc. If I want a touch of zealotry, I could add Torture.
The opposing grouping of Shadow would include Darkness, Night, Nightmares, Trickery, Lies, Jealousy, Misery, Torture, Revenge, Theft, Lust, Depravity, Rumors, Thralldom, Caverns (and the Forgotten Beasts inside of them, presumably), etc. As the vast majority of spheres within the Light and Shadow groupings would oppose each other, so would the forces, deities, magics, and individual followers of the groupings. The individual followers would also oppose each other because their respective groupings' associated custom personality traits would also often clash.

It would make sense for these custom groupings/linkages to function on some additional level above the spheres, which would allow for overlap between different groupings - such as two custom groupings sharing the same sphere. Also, being able to select one or a few certain spheres as the absolute most important within the grouping - for example, with Light it could be: Light, Sacrifice, Justice, Valor. Same goes for one or a few key personality traits that followers would possess or aspire towards.

The followers of the Light grouping/deities would use fiery, light-based attacks and healing spells. They'd be associated with DF personality traits such as LAW, LOYALTY, FAIRNESS, SELF_CONTROL, SACRIFICE, PERSEVERANCE, HARMONY, TRUTH, Low CUNNING, and they'd worship and follow the spheres associated with Light.
The followers of the Shadow grouping/deities would use magical attacks based on darkness, madness, Forgotten Beasts, and abusing people's worst personality traits. They'd often have DF personality traits such as POWER, CUNNING, Low MERRIMENT, Low SACRIFICE, Low SELF_CONTROL, Low FAIRNESS, Low TRUTH, Low FAMILY, Low LOYALTY, Low FRIENDSHIP, and they'd worship and follow the spheres associated with Shadow.

What might potentially get confusing is if two opposing spheres are put under the same grouping. For example: a grouping that includes both Death and Healing, or both Revenge and Forgiveness. Would a user of both magics have them contradict each other, or would they complement and strengthen each other?

I could go on, but suffice it to say that such additional control would be incredible, and I think it would make a lot of sense for organizing sphere magic.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 05:06:24 am by leastannoyingman »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3988 on: May 15, 2021, 02:13:23 am »

@leastannoyingman: I, at least, would find it less annoying if you added "Edit:xxx" comments to the end of a post you edit, in particular a large one, summarizing what the changes are so people don't have to scour the text in order to try to find what might have changed.
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3989 on: May 15, 2021, 02:47:21 am »

@leastannoyingman

It looks like this has wandered off to Suggestions territory.

Toady answers questions here, but he's said many times that if you want him to remember an idea when it comes to putting something in the game, it needs to go in Suggestions.

Most of us are guilty of this from time to time, alas.
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