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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1583373 times)

kontako

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4125 on: July 23, 2021, 06:13:05 am »

I can't recall if I had already asked this at some point, or only thought to. Sorry if it's a duplicate:
Is it possible to breed mega-beasts, supposing there was a viable pair?
In a fort I once had, I captured a giant and was hoping to build an army if I ever captured a giantess.
I ask as in the same fortress I had then captured a pair of cave trolls hoping to do the same, though they never took.
I can see the obscenity in attempting to breed sapient humanoids, though to my understanding, the goblins treat trolls much like this.
I often inadvertently produce little troglodyte-lings in my prisons and was wondering if there was anything that prevented it in other cases.


Whilst writing the above, I had thought of another question:
Do humanoid creatures (such as ogres, giants, and animal people) belong to a civilization, and therefore perhaps have 'cultures' or are they considered wildlife?
If they do, can they become things like heroes, warriors or musicians during world-gen?


My questions have been answered!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 05:42:00 pm by kontako »
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kontako

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4126 on: July 23, 2021, 06:16:25 am »

:

Mage beast and semi-mega beast reproduce during world gen, how do they go about their reproduction? do giants form relationships Off screen/invisibly or is it just mindless mating/reproduction?

Since some animals do form pair bonds for life would it make sense for at least some Mega beasts and Semi-Mega beast to form relationships and track family members so they can seek revenge or render assistance to each other or are they intended to not have such motivations?

:
Intelligent semi mega beasts presumably use the same breeding model as other "wild" intelligent creatures (such as troglodytes), i.e. the animal breeding model. This can be seen when a group camps in a cavern. I don't know if anyone has tried to set up any breeding programs for intelligent semi mega beasts, though, but it has probably been done.

Fully intelligent megabeasts or otherwise for 44.12 rely on marriage rules and it happens offscreen in w.g, only slow learners like 'Giants' rely on animal-level mating given the practices you can partake in to breed troglodytes and trolls by breeding them on a chain or in cages near compatible mates. Though its fully possible now on 47.01 that cyclopian family groups could be introduced to one another in fortress mode through controlled introduction to one another on a chain in the hopes of them becoming lovers, though its not much of a existance.

The purposes for breeding cyclopses would be a difficult lengthy process, that isn't nearly as productive as breeding trolls (putting in pits, slow down siegers, long lifespan for cage exhibits) for albiet a cyclops has much more potential (once a few years has elapsed) to be used as defensive failguard or guardian of a pit. Taking into account megabeast caps too.
  • The civilized concept of marriage not being applicable to megabeasts and uncivilized creatures and thinking about life-bond/relationship status of a mate -monogomy is a nice thought but probably warrants a suggestion thread instead

Would you believe I only had to go back a bit to answer my question, who would've known...
I wonder why my trolls never bred.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 06:38:12 am by kontako »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4127 on: July 23, 2021, 07:10:08 am »

Quote from: kontako
Do humanoid creatures (such as ogres, giants, and animal people) belong to a civilization, and therefore perhaps have 'cultures' or are they considered wildlife?
If they do, can they become things like heroes, warriors or musicians during world-gen?

Answer you may be looking for is [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] which was a token introduced with 44. tavern arc responsible for creating the populations of animalpeople, gorlaks, mushroom men and other weird noncivilized oddities. [OUTSIDE_CONTROLLABLE] creates a single adventurer instance of that animal (any animal) not affilliated to any entity, but [MEGABEAST] and [SEMI_MEGABEAST] always draw hostility because they themselves are very hostile.

On the whole, how megabeasts operate can still change in future arcs, Toady still has eyes on dragon subspecies in development goals and re-expanding ([POWER] to let MB's take over civs been functionally disabled for a time) & how they interact with entities (they can still draw abstract religion-sphere worship, though there's no reprecussions when you kill a particular cults "god", animal sacredness is a goal too)

As for cultures, no, Giants might live in the same "lair" because they're members of a family in a sense, or other creatures inside a "mound" (a night troll earth hut with a few civilized knick-nacks and their loot) but it is no way a cohesive society, it has no entity or structure it's just a common place owned by them. Alternative societies to the settlement tokens and other outlying little social groups may be explored closer to the law arc & scenario's, mentioning in the last FotF nomadic groups of animalpeople etc. Which sounds closer to what you might visualize in your head for ambient [SEMI_INTELLIGENT] wildlife like said troggs and trolls. Far off, after the big wait, 5+ years kind of deal.

Would you believe I only had to go back a bit to answer my question, who would've known...

My stance on the matter is much the same now as it was then for 47.05, gremlins however as the only intentional "intelligent" pet, are still buggy to-date and very hard to integrate into your fort and keep tame, @PatrickLundell particularly has a axe to grind, having captured and trained them before trying to keep to strictly vanilla gameplay.

Though i know its not worth the bother really for all the modding, 3rd party tooling and waiting to make the game feature viable without homebrewing your own underlings, which isnt really as satisfying as knowing the potential reward that can be gotten from the effort of a gremlin trap.



Toady, with the new screens discerning animals & civilians much clearer will a gremlin's UI as a intelligent-feature-creature finally be cleaned to a usable standard to try and fit in with the rest of the dwarves?)

I doubt any improvement with the steam df graphical would be mega-amazing drastic in a rework on release in this area, but anything that is a bit clearer helps, as well as seeing the said gremlins happyness passively in civilian counts if that can be correlated to how likely they are to go and petition for full labors.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4128 on: July 23, 2021, 07:43:04 am »

@kontako:
Your questions are inconsistent:
- Giants (of various kinds) are not megabeasts, but semi-megabeasts. They're intelligent (at least one is only semi-intelligent, like trolls and troglodytes), and so are subject to the intelligence/civilization issued discussed.
- None of the megabeasts are intelligent, and they can be bred (with the exception for the non organic bronze colossus, of course) as far as I understand. However, they're born adult, and so cannot be fully tamed. In addition to that they're also bugged so they automatically go hostile against active military units (your own as well as merchant guards). Toady did something to deal with a loyalty cascade in the latest release, but as far as I understand that doesn't remove the underlying problem.

Regarding conversion of intelligent "wildlife" to become citizens (currently gremlins only in vanilla): I don't see that fixing this rather niche functionality would be more important than a lot of other bug fixing candidates. If the job allocation logic/UI is changed enough and it's a trivial thing to do, allowing DF to allocate jobs to gremlin citizens might be thrown in as a bonus, but an overhaul of the whole complex probably won't happen until "wild" civilizations on the tribal/extended family group level are dealt with, which probably would be Starting Scenarios at the earliest.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4129 on: July 23, 2021, 08:34:51 am »

@kontako: - None of the megabeasts are intelligent, and they can be bred (with the exception for the non organic bronze colossus, of course) as far as I understand. However, they're born adult, and so cannot be fully tamed.

Rocs aren't born as adults, letting the fledglings be fully tamed (and trainable) unlike dragons which need maintenance to upkeep their tamed status from their hatchling-adult forms.

Also Cyclops's & Minotaurs get a free get out-of-jail card with animal offscreen breeding like said before for their full-intelligent status, but their occupation as a megabeast definitely takes up their time squashing towns to be busy doing anything else, other non megabeast full intelligents can breed offscreen in wild counts too just fine to keep the regional numbers of animalpeople/underground people/other stable.

Funnily enough, i feel some of these questions might have been spurred by a recent kruggsmash video in modded settings and the renewed interest around this bug-report on what happens when babies drop not belonging to your fort.

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kontako

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4130 on: July 23, 2021, 08:51:56 am »

Answer you may be looking for is [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES]

I think that may answer my second question.

...gremlins however as the only intentional "intelligent" pet...

At the time, I was satisfied with attempting to keep them on-site as a hostile force. Army was more a euphemism for attempting to weaponise them.

@kontako:
Your questions are inconsistent:

Other than the omission of 'semi', I don't particularly note an inconsistency

Funnily enough, i feel some of these questions might have been spurred by a recent kruggsmash video in modded settings and the renewed interest around this bug-report on what happens when babies drop not belonging to your fort.


It's the first I've seen either of these, there must be a real bad case of Baader-Meinhof syndrome going around because it seems as if the answer to that question is everywhere.
The attempt I mentioned was almost a year ago now, though I've been putting off asking about it as I thought it was a particularly strange question
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"Confederacy of Businesses"?! By Armok's Blood! These Communist animals are CAPITALISTS!
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4131 on: July 23, 2021, 11:30:20 am »

:
@kontako:
Your questions are inconsistent:

Other than the omission of 'semi', I don't particularly note an inconsistency
:
The omission of the semi turns out to be rather important as none of the megabeasts are intelligent, while all of the semi-megabeasts are (I don't think there's any unintelligent semi-megabeast, anyway). This means the distinction becomes important as the intelligence (or lack thereof) is implied by the description.
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4132 on: July 27, 2021, 05:50:37 am »

How is the hit rating (not sure what you call it) calculated for logs that fall after a tree is cut? (Edit: It's a value in the projectile struct.)

The value is typically around 1 for the created logs, but I'm not sure what the equation or random number range used is. Falling webs get a value of 0, whereas fired bolts can have a value in the 100's.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 02:00:07 pm by Bumber »
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4133 on: July 27, 2021, 08:38:12 am »

Like, the accuracy?

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4134 on: July 27, 2021, 10:52:41 am »

How is the hit rating (not sure what you call it) calculated for logs that fall after a tree is cut?

Mmm the gravity movement per z layers? Measured in G's, i dont know enough about it really to speak confidently on the matter. Here's the wiki link if it helps you, but aboveground tree logs split apart and fall within ticks away from a single trunk least according to the spread of the branches if i have that right (or slightly offcourse falling from the trunk)

Dwarf falls onto dwarf: transfers force, item falls onto dwarf, cracks skull.

Drop anvils or parabolically shoot things out of minecart, higher angles equals more force but speed is already pretty good, cyclops & giant throwing is generally inconsequential without being literally chucked into the ocean or off a mountain building up g's to crash into a stone floor for anything some adequate armor can't soak up (unless it tears your joints twisting in response to the force.)
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alan8325

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4135 on: July 27, 2021, 01:32:52 pm »

Few questions:

1. If the siege improvements include some kind of digging ability for invaders, could we expect material properties to play a role in ability to dig a tile? For example could iron blocks block the digging or make it very slow (like several fort mode days per block)?
2. Will the Tactician trait provide benefits to on-map dwarves after the siege improvements?
3. Will we see any basic formations for on-map dwarves in the siege improvements?
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Mr_Crabman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4136 on: July 28, 2021, 01:43:45 pm »

How accurate is this page: https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html, as far as planned features goes? Presumably plenty of what's planned isn't listed there, and it isn't accurate about which things are already completed, or what order you're prioritizing what remains; but would some/many of the plans there be scrapped? (even if you don't know the specifics because it's too long to actually check).

What sort of changes if any do you have planned for combat logs for the Premium release?

2. Yeah, I only implemented ARG1 through ARG5 because I was being lazy or rushed way back whenever, but the loader of arguments can keep pulling them in.

5. There's a lot going on there and some examples would help me check more quickly.

2. So to clarify (I may be failing in reading comprehension here), would it be possible for us users to define ARG6 and !ARG7 and beyond in our arguments (and pass in those arguments into the body detail plans and creature variations)?

I'm not sure whether by "only implemented ARG1 through ARG5" you're just referring to your own use of them in the files, or if it's that putting in the !ARG7 (in creature variations) and ARG6 (in body detail plans) just won't work (and that the creature can pass in more args, but they get ignored).

5. So this is what I was talking about:

Code: [Select]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_FALSE:AROUND:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:15]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_FLOATING:AROUND:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:15]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:RHB:BELOW:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_LOWER:33]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:LHB:BELOW:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_LOWER:33]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:ABOVE:BY_CATEGORY:NOSE]
[BP_RELATION:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT:IN_FRONT:BY_CATEGORY:NECK]
[BP_RELATION:BY_TOKEN:RCB:ABOVE:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_UPPER:33]

In some cases there is a number given on the end, representing the coverage (according to the wiki), and in other cases there isn't, so I was wondering what difference this would make; like, do some relations require a coverage while others do not accept one, or is it mandatory for some but optional for others, or is the coverage optional in all cases (with some fallback "default" when no coverage is given)?
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4137 on: July 28, 2021, 01:53:01 pm »

Like, the accuracy?

Not sure. Could have something to do with impact force. It's this value in the projectile struct.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Su

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4138 on: July 30, 2021, 12:18:53 am »

hi toady. i know you've already said that there will be keyboard support, but i'm worried. one of the best things about df classic is that - with very few exceptions - all of the relevant controls are always displayed on screen. i don't have to remember what exact key to press to be able to designate dig tiles, for example, because it's all shown right there in the side panel. it might be clunky in places, and i still have to remember which submenu things are in, but i never have to be confused about which key to press.

none of the new screens you've shown so far have had keyboard controls displayed. in fact, they look completely unusable with a keyboard to me. they're pretty, to be sure, but if there's no way for me to tell what keyboard keys to press, i'm not going to be able to play anymore. i don't have anywhere near the kind of memory needed to remember so many controls.

are you planing on making a second pass to add keyboard hints, or am i shit out of luck?

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Spriggans

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4139 on: July 30, 2021, 08:16:57 am »

How is Scamps going ?

I heard him meow on the last youtube video, I was wondering how our beloved cat goes :)
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