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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1668190 times)

LordL

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4170 on: August 13, 2021, 02:39:07 pm »

What if players will have some limited access to legends right during their fortress/adventure runs that will only allow viewing events that are known to the player? This would really bring joy of discovery and some order to the information you know (especially useful in adventure mode)?
I believe the past answer for the question about limited knowledge is that it's quite costly to keep track of who knows what and to disseminate knowledge to people properly, so if you ask A about something today they won't know much, but tomorrow, after speaking to B, they know a bit more, but still not everything.

My guess is that the meta info of keeping track of who knows what easily can outweigh the actual information itself, and Legends info can be quite substantial.
Well there is already a menu that has a list of events, people, sites, artifacts, etc. that you are aware of but you can only use it to find these things on the world map. I think it would be great to have more information about them immediately available so that these things become actually meaningful and immersive.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4171 on: August 13, 2021, 03:24:32 pm »

What if players will have some limited access to legends right during their fortress/adventure runs that will only allow viewing events that are known to the player? This would really bring joy of discovery and some order to the information you know (especially useful in adventure mode)?
I believe the past answer for the question about limited knowledge is that it's quite costly to keep track of who knows what and to disseminate knowledge to people properly, so if you ask A about something today they won't know much, but tomorrow, after speaking to B, they know a bit more, but still not everything.

My guess is that the meta info of keeping track of who knows what easily can outweigh the actual information itself, and Legends info can be quite substantial.
Well there is already a menu that has a list of events, people, sites, artifacts, etc. that you are aware of but you can only use it to find these things on the world map. I think it would be great to have more information about them immediately available so that these things become actually meaningful and immersive.
That's on the fortress level, rather than the individual one, requiring a lot less memory to keep track of the state of the single fortress entity. It can be noted that engravings can reveal a lot of info not otherwise available (again, because knowledge about events isn't tracked).
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tonnot98

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4172 on: August 15, 2021, 01:41:13 pm »


What is the biggest embark size that you expect to be stable by the 1.0.0 release? Do you think it might be greater than the current maximum possible of 16x16?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4173 on: August 15, 2021, 04:07:28 pm »


What is the biggest embark size that you expect to be stable by the 1.0.0 release? Do you think it might be greater than the current maximum possible of 16x16?

The 1.0.0 release is decades away. It won't be larger than 16*16 before the Myth & Magic arc, and it remains to be seen if the bugs affecting 16*16 will get prioritized before then. The map rewrite included in the first Myth & Magic release ought to lay the groundwork for additional map feature placements and sizes (by avoiding the introduction of restrictions that aren't deemed necessary), but whether anything of that is actually going to be used for embarks probably remains to be seen.
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Urist mcOverusedJoke

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4174 on: August 15, 2021, 05:10:55 pm »

Hey! While doing random things in the RAW's, I noticed that (according to a wiki page, at least, and I'm inclined to agree with it given that there are no errors when I use them)

Spoiler: Magic spoilers (click to show/hide)


I don't want to build any unrealistic expectations for myself but the hype train is real.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4175 on: August 15, 2021, 05:54:13 pm »

there are goals other than "immortality" that are valid for secrets. Given that they currently do nothing, unlike the Immortality goal, are there any plans to make these functional after/during the Myth and Magic "arc", or are they sort of placeholders for something bigger? Or maybe placeholders for a a kind of "primitive" magic system?

There's probably no reason to hiding it inside a spoiler, its public knowledge that necromancers have a particular life-goal motivation since Toady talked about making it work in the first movements towards the villian system so that necromancers get the apprentices and agents together to expand their schemes/launder money to buy a tower property until they're ready to strike.
  • You can make a sedentary custom-necromancer who makes zombies as a hobby and never does anything as modders have found out by inputting necromancer interaction secrets in the wrong order, showing that the behaviour is entirely hardcoded to trigger in a specific set of steps that don't apply to any of the others.
Villians arc is unfinished, and to above point, these dead tokens are awaiting to be coded on a non-specific schedule as far as any one of us can gather at the moment. Soonest would be post-steam-release tying up loose ends, but it could end up being completely ripped up and scrapped by the time of the map-rewrite for something else if its not deemed relevant anymore.
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Mr_Crabman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4176 on: August 19, 2021, 06:29:03 am »

What's the reason for having APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION? I don't see why the likes of CV_REMOVE_TAG, when defined directly in a creature, couldn't just be applied immediately, and then the same for any subsequent CV_ tokens like CV_ADD_TAG and CV_CONVERT_TAG.

For example, penguin men start out like this:

Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:PENGUIN MAN]
[COPY_TAGS_FROM:BIRD_PENGUIN]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON]
[GO_TO_TAG:BODY]
[CV_REMOVE_TAG:BODY]
[CV_ADD_TAG:BODY:HUMANOID_NECK:2EYES:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:GIZZARD:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:4FINGERS:4TOES:BEAK:TONGUE:RIBCAGE]
[APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]

Why couldn't [CV_REMOVE_TAG:BODY] and the [CV_ADD_TAG:BODY:...] just be applied immediately one after the other automatically? As far as I can tell, [APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON] is applied instantly, it's just the manual "inside the creature definition" creature variation tokens that need APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION.

Also, why does CV_ADD_TAG need to exist anyway? If BODY has already been removed, surely it could just be re-added directly as [BODY:...], and the same for every other possible tag that could be added?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4177 on: August 19, 2021, 07:45:49 am »

CV_CONVERT_TAG needs to be applied alongside the subsequent CVCT_MASTER, CVCT_TARGET, and CVCT_REPLACEMENT tokens, so it makes sense to have them use the existing creature variation code instead of copying it over. I’m assuming that’s what APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION does. CV_ADD_TAG and CV_REMOVE_TAG probably went along for the ride, even if the former should have no use, and the latter wouldn’t require many lines on its own.

squamous

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4178 on: August 20, 2021, 03:21:24 pm »


1. Are there any plans for larger cities than currently exist? Something like huge metropoli akin to Rome or Constantinople for example, taking up multiple world tiles.
2. Moving fortresses/fortress parts have been mentioned, but are there any plans to eventually add mechanisms for things like airships in addition to sea vessels and the like?
3. I've heard that there are plans for ruined civilizations and such. Are there plans for modders to be able to make ruins of their own, with custom loot/squatters/monsters?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 06:51:55 pm by squamous »
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4179 on: August 20, 2021, 03:29:27 pm »

2. Moving fortresses/fortress parts have been mentioned, but are there any plans to eventually add mechanisms for things like airships in addition to sea vessels and the like?
At least one of Threetoe’s stories has a flying castle in it. I don’t know what the stance on aerodynamics and balloons and the like is, but at least the magic path should be accessible at some point to those who wish to make fortresses and fleets in the sky.

FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4180 on: August 20, 2021, 05:32:34 pm »

Feels odd, but the topic for the addition of a hospital occupation has put me and probably a few other people in a wierd spot, because it makes anything said flex the thin veil of suggestionhood if its all very prematurely formed at this stage. Ill stick my neck out, assuming we don't see a steam-post before the end of the month.
Quote
1) Ill quickly say that anecdotally i've set up small taverns to ensure visitation inside hospitals by friends and loved ones, and keeping the alcohol tap flowing for the benefit of longer term residents. Since this would be awkward to overlap with two occupation zones, will there be any degree of revision change of the hospital's "rules" if nessescary to discriminate between public and private hospitals?

2) Is there a expected "flow", prioritizing fortress mode outwards into adventure and worldgen in mind or will each area for medicine affected by this occupation zone and permancy change be respectfully stalled to their appropriate arcs after the big wait?


Though i wonder how many visitors would willingly let your dwarves do surgery on them if they had heard about your inhouse hospital. Its not like they can pay you for your trouble, so im not sure what a player could even possibly get out of it besides their imparted gratitude and that character lives to survive another day. A good deed in high places makes all the difference i suppose.
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FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4181 on: August 21, 2021, 07:17:35 am »

If hospitals are now a location, does that mean that we will see hospitals in different parts of the world both in adventure mode and in world gen? Or will we have to wait until later for that?
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4182 on: August 22, 2021, 09:57:21 am »

My biggest concern with the new labour system is that it addresses the opposite of my own concerns. The new labour system allows you to easily prevent e.g. non-stonecrafters from doing stonecrafting jobs; I don't mind if low-skill stonecrafters do stonecrafting, but what I really want is for miners to only mine and not do any other jobs.


With the new labour system, is there an easier way to prevent e.g. miners from doing non-mining jobs, than from making every work detail selected-dwarfs-only, and then assigning every dwarf that isn't a miner to every not-mining work detail?
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Mr_Crabman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4183 on: August 25, 2021, 09:37:17 am »

How does CV_CONVERT_TAG work with target selection? That is, take this example:
Code: [Select]
[CV_CONVERT_TAG]
[CVCT_MASTER:BODY]
[CVCT_TARGET:BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]
[CVCT_REPLACEMENT:HUMANOID_NECK:3FINGERS]

In actuality `BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK` are the very first 2 arguments in BODY everywhere this pair is used, and they are beside each other, but in principle, do they have to be directly beside each other to be detected and replaced? Like, would this be detected here?:
Code: [Select]
[BODY:BASIC_2PARTBODY:FRONT_BODY_FLIPPERS:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]
Or does it need to be immediately consecutive?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 01:10:24 pm by Mr_Crabman »
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4184 on: August 25, 2021, 10:47:07 am »

How does CV_CONVERT_TAG work with target selection? That is, take this example:
Code: [Select]
[CV_CONVERT_TAG]
[CVCT_MASTER:BODY]
[CVCT_TARGET:BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]
[CVCT_REPLACEMENT:HUMANOID_NECK:3FINGERS]
In actuality `BASIC_2PARTBODY:BASIC_HEAD_NECK` are the very first 2 arguments in BODY everywhere this pair is used, and they are beside each other, but in principle, do they have to be directly beside each other to be detected and replaced? Like, would this be detected here?:
Code: [Select]
[BODY:BASIC_2PARTBODY:FRONT_BODY_FLIPPERS:BASIC_HEAD_NECK]Or does it need to be immediately consecutive?

They need to be immediately consecutive, or rather it's a plain text-replace.
So you can do
Code: [Select]
[DESCRIPTION:This is an example creature. It is ATTRIBUTE_STRING. Very, very ATTRIBUTE_STRING]
[CV_CONVERT_TAG]
[CVCT_MASTER:DESCRIPTION]
[CVCT_TARGET:ATTRIBUTE_STRING]
[CVCT_REPLACEMENT:fast]
[APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION]
and get
Code: [Select]
[DESCRIPTION:This is an example creature. It is fast. Very, very fast.]
I don't know the answer to the second one, but there's a lot of modding knowledge floating around the community which is poorly or not written down at all. Asking first in one of the modding threads is always better because it 1. offloads Toady, 2. probably gets you a quicker answer, and 3. brings up the topic in case it is under-researched, and the subsequent !science! can either solve the issue and advance modding, or home in on a less broad question which is quicker for Toady to read through and answer.
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