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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2220470 times)

LuuBluum

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4530 on: May 31, 2022, 10:40:38 am »

Since below-ground farming was changed, will we also see some changes to aboveground farming in a similar vein?

On that same note, do you think there would be enough time to work in seasons for aboveground crops, to keep them on-par with the belowground ones?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4531 on: May 31, 2022, 01:32:36 pm »

I feel there will be/is a lot of questions this month, I hope I’m personally not overdoing it...

1. Can you assign non-wearable/non-carryable items to nobles, like furniture, and what happens then? Do they want them in their rooms, or is any deeper functionality left for a more thorough look at nobles at a later point in time (starting scenarios?).
2. Can you assign multiple items to the same position? Like a royal amulet and a royal scepter? Or is the idea that the item is a proof of identity, thereby making multiple items redundant/tricky to deal with?

A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4532 on: May 31, 2022, 02:37:00 pm »

What, exactly, is meant by “irritation” in the most recent devlog?  At first, I read it as “irrigation” but then I noticed it was actually “irritation” and now I’m confused…
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Su

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4533 on: May 31, 2022, 04:04:47 pm »

the latest devpost says that the Z-screen has been removed and replaced with a tooltip.

how are keyboard users going to access this information? i'm becoming increasingly worried that keyboard support is going to become a second-class citizen, with controls going unshown and features becoming outright unavailable without the use of a mouse.

on an arguably more positive note - is there an official link to the updated roadmap? it sounds like things are nearing completion.

What, exactly, is meant by “irritation” in the most recent devlog?  At first, I read it as “irrigation” but then I noticed it was actually “irritation” and now I’m confused…

i assume this is going to be some measure of how much you've changed the area by digging, chopping down trees, and / or killing wildlife.
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BrythonLexi

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4534 on: May 31, 2022, 08:55:17 pm »

Already sent this as an e-mail, because I don't Forums often and forgot this was a thing.  I apologise profusely.

What is presented publicly is that generated sites keep track of what they produce every week, such as milking or woodcrafting.  I would like to know details of how this affects the world in general, but particularly:
- Items that adventurers are able to see and purchase in market stalls and shops of human towns, and trade depots of dwarven fortresses.  Do those, and/or the existence of particular shops in general, get affected by such production?
- Caravans received in Fortress Mode.  Are the products of those relevant civs generated spontaneously based on player need, or resource production and availability of the civilization sending merchants?
- Do those weekly production cycles continue post world-generation?  For this question, that includes the 2 weeks between embarks/adventures, during Fortress Mode, and during Adventure Mode?
I imagine a "No" answer to mean that the items that exist at the end of world generation are all that will ever exist in Adventure Mode - that clearing a Mead Hall of items, then playing 10 years of a fortress, then returning to that Mead Hall in a new adventurer would still result in an empty Mead Hall.

For some reason, this loop of world generation regarding production and trade is something that has been keeping me thinking.  If you wish to provide those details, it would mean a lot to learn how it works behind the hood, and what the consequences are for the rest of the game post-generation.
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Bumber

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4535 on: June 01, 2022, 01:52:40 am »

Several months ago I asked a question about a tile flag check for adventure mode and got a reply:
Quote
In adventure mode, the visible tile flag is the 5th bit.  It cohabitates with some of the dwarf mode digging stuff to save room.  Since I think the dwarf hidden flag might be if you ever saw it, not if you currently see it, where a new flag was needed.

Would you mind sharing what any of the other overlapping flags are?
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4536 on: June 01, 2022, 03:00:21 am »

Is there a reason you are going back to giving us twice-a-week instead of once-every-two-weeks news on bay12games dev blog ?


It's been something like years, (maybe 2014 ?) last time you did this.
I personnally like this way, but i wondered if there was a specific reason for this sudden change ?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4537 on: June 01, 2022, 03:45:32 am »

Is there a reason you are going back to giving us twice-a-week instead of once-every-two-weeks news on bay12games dev blog ?


It's been something like years, (maybe 2014 ?) last time you did this.
I personnally like this way, but i wondered if there was a specific reason for this sudden change ?

Steam release is a big event. Im sure they can answer this well enough themselves but there's a lot riding on this so the Tarn brothers are on their A-game to ensure it goes well. The funds crucially will be going towards Zach's surgery if i remember correctly of a melenoma on his nose and ensuring the game's future security.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4538 on: June 01, 2022, 04:02:08 am »

What, exactly, is meant by “irritation” in the most recent devlog?  At first, I read it as “irrigation” but then I noticed it was actually “irritation” and now I’m confused…

i assume this is going to be some measure of how much you've changed the area by digging, chopping down trees, and / or killing wildlife.

Without trying to overhype it, making secondary forts beneath your first one probably will need to be a quieter affair.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4539 on: June 01, 2022, 07:17:35 am »

Is there a reason you are going back to giving us twice-a-week instead of once-every-two-weeks news on bay12games dev blog ?


It's been something like years, (maybe 2014 ?) last time you did this.
I personnally like this way, but i wondered if there was a specific reason for this sudden change ?

Steam release is a big event. Im sure they can answer this well enough themselves but there's a lot riding on this so the Tarn brothers are on their A-game to ensure it goes well. The funds crucially will be going towards Zach's surgery if i remember correctly of a melenoma on his nose and ensuring the game's future security.

yeah, but Steam release is on the table for quite a long time, and it actually even slowed dev blogs (from 1/Week to 1/2 weeks) so i don't see any link between the two.
I just wondered. After all it's the role of this topic. But maybe there is not real answer, and i'm fine with this, too !
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4540 on: June 01, 2022, 12:18:48 pm »

so from the 5/30 devlog, if I'm reading it correctly it sounds like there are now settings to explicitly control forgotten beast attacks and what sounds like animal man tribe attacks. Are animal man tribes going to attack in an ambusher style raids, and if so, what are their objectives? To steal items, kill dwarves, or annihilate our fort?

Like goblin sieges, can their demands be satisfied?

And on the topic of goblin sieges, does the new artifact demand happen every time or will they give up on making demands and just attack you after a while?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4541 on: June 01, 2022, 01:40:03 pm »

Are animal man tribes going to attack in an ambusher style raids, and if so, what are their objectives? To steal items, kill dwarves, or annihilate our fort?

Question in a similar vein: 1) Will animal-tribe irritables defined by [LAYER_LINKED] have any soft supportive additions to make them more than a enviromental hazard (maybe even playable on the level of a normal civ)?

2)'ly is the irritation global amongst all underground dwellers, or will the player be taking the Ire of a particular group.


Currently [SUBTERREANEAN LINKED] has mixed pro's & cons, (free layer animals, nobody knows who you are, not even yourself since you're not a civ), I can imagine once the update comes in, modders might want to upgrade the tribe people to less primitive forms (and attempt to emulate them). Its definitely appealing, as the only otherwise thematic entrance of underground dwellers currently appears by a disaster, which is workable for modding means but not always optimal.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4542 on: June 01, 2022, 06:59:29 pm »

Quote
Quote from: Su
in all our time on bay12, we don't think we've ever seen zack post to the main page. what brought that about?
Quote from: Inarius
Is there a reason you are going back to giving us twice-a-week instead of once-every-two-weeks news on bay12games dev blog ?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371175#msg8371175
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371178#msg8371178
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8378420#msg8378420
Inarius (op2): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8378440#msg8378440

We realized late that since Zach has been playing so intently lately, he can start posting his experiences while I was stuck in menu rewrites I was having trouble posting regularly about.  Of course, around that time, my side picked up as well, so now we have a bunch of logs.

Quote from: Bloodwarrior
1 will prophets have more functions in the myth and magic update depending on who they serve.

2 would it be possible when prophecies come out to proclaim your own.

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371744#msg8371744
Bloodwarrior (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371842#msg8371842

Ha ha, this is all very possible.  Gods are going to be a big part of the update, for worlds that have them (and probably those that don't, though not so magically).  The prophecies as they stand are a little strange, since I was using them to test a new language structure, but this is good, since you'll probably end up with something like the image creator to design your prophecy ha ha.

Quote from: Siredeturtle
In the past I remember mentions of adventurer-conquerors and government positions as a possible part of the upcoming Army Arc (the later being possible already with a little dialogue trick, but not very satisfying). After a long time and the current developments in the Steam version, my question is:

What can we expect from the Army Arc regarding adventure mode?

The development page is still current here - we're planning to add an adventure mode portion to the army arc, and the dev page currently has "Gaining civ-level entity positions (e.g. baron) by reputation or intrigue", "Basic command of large armies on travel-scale map", "Giving local combat orders to companions", and "Medical improvements".  We haven't hit the details on it yet, and it's going to intersect heavily with the finishing of the villains release part of adventure mode, since you'll be able to command your lieutenants and such there.  What I don't really expect is a lot of site administration - the worldgen sites just aren't that interesting since the economy turns off when worldgen ends.  Some army raising and such, very likely, but not the actual responsibilities of each position - those will have to come in as their mechanics are intersected in later developments.

Quote from: GOTOTOTOE
in your gdc 2016 talk, you showed off the creation myth generator that seemed to be a generally separate program from dwarf fortress proper (assumably to be reintegrated into df when myths starts development). would you be cool with sharing it for the community to get a taste of myths long before it comes out or would this fall under code being shared? i would personally just like to play around with it since worldbuildings fun but i can definitely see how it conflicts with the "no code sharing" policy.

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371829#msg8371829
GOTOTOTOE (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8371833#msg8371833

Yeah, don't really have anything to add to Eric Blank's reply here.

Quote from: Fikilili
Not entirely game related, but I've had this question living rent free in my head since the unfortunate and tragic death of Kentaro Miura, who left us with his unfinished magnum opus.
1. With the arrival of the Steam version and the ever growing list of to-be-added features in the Bay12 Development log, do you still feel like you'll be able to one day complete the game? Don't you feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of work it represents, or do you really think you have the time to polish it/finish it completely before... Well, anything unfortunate happens to you?
2. If you and Threetoe were to leave the game unfinished, who would take the lead and keep its development? Would you leave DF to the community like ID Software did with Doom? Or will someone else keep developing it, albeit, in a different form?
Don't interpret my questions as mean spirited, but this last decade has been chokeful of artists who left us or abandoned their work without finishing it, so the slow but steady development of DF sometimes worries me. Although don't worry, I have faith in the two of you.

1. I'm not sure I've ever felt like I'd complete it.  Always more to do!  But that means it's not really overwhelming either.  Polish is the same way - the Steam release will represent a big milestone for DF polish, and who knows what the future holds there as we continue to add things, other than a new minimum bar being set that we have to meet.

2. I have no idea, and it's not really up to us unless we specifically bring people on while the source is closed.  There won't be any point making plans about this kind of thing until we see what happens with the Steam release.  It's impossible to decide until we know what the situation is.

Quote from: BlueManedHawk
What is the "shrouded history" mentioned in the prefstring of kobold bulbs?

Threetoe: "The key word is shrouded."

Quote from: tiresius
Is there a matrix/spreadsheet screen planned that has skills in columns with rows being dwarves?  Many city builders based on DF have this type of screen to quickly isolate/find which citizens are the best at things and it would help build initial militaries and finding the best gem setter in the fortress when needed.

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8372390#msg8372390

It's not planned currently.  The work details and other changes are working well enough for most purposes, and I'm not satisfied with a giant 200x80 spreadsheet as something new players have to interact with.  As something players can opt into, it's probably fine, but I won't have time to do anything like that for the first release while so much stuff is outstanding.

Quote from: BlueManedHawk
Why are fluffy wamblers immune to fevers, despite vermin not getting affected by fevers in the first place?

Ha ha, I have no idea.  Future proofing?  Copy-paste oversight?  If it isn't just copy-pasted, I do try to keep the critters roughly in line with how we think about them, and I certainly don't want fluffy wamblers to be deathly ill, even if I can't stop people from throwing them at megabeasts.

Quote from: voliol
Last December you answered you did not know what would happen with the ASCII intro animation going forward. Has its future been cleared out by now? If not, where does figuring it out land on the road map, roughly?

And also, has the title screen been finished?

Ha ha, you answered your question pretty much - we haven't finished the title screen, but when we do, it'll be in or out.  As usual, many things are just happening to moment they come up, since there's so much to do.

Quote from: Buttery_Mess
With the map rewrite, will you be taking a stab at improved hydrology? Specifically I'm thinking of tides, oceans that don't freeze solid every night, and perhaps icebergs? Will geysers ever be a feature?

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8372673#msg8372673
Buttery_Mess (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8372764#msg8372764

Yeah, Eric Blank is correct - we'd really like to get the freezing stuff fixed, and whatever else we can grab would also be nice.  Tides would be cool but it's a hard problem just to have the water move up and down one level smoothly without causing CPU terror, and it's probably just bad all around to try and do it on the fort mode timescale.

Quote from: Kat
I have a question, mostly to do with things that would be beneficial for creating mods, not entirely sure how useful they'd be for normal gameplay though.

Are user-definable clothing items something that might be implemented ?
What I mean by this is... I have a modded beastman race, they have horns. I'd like to be able to create clothing (and/or jewellery) that they could wear on their horns. So, being able to define new bits of clothing with a token like[WORN_ON_BODY_PART:HORN], would be ideal for me.

It would be cool.  It's complicated to make things more details though, and the clothing generally feels sort of silly sometimes, because of the amount of calculation that has to go on just to get people to choose their clothing properly.  I'd like to do something sometime though.  I just noted while playing around the other day that amulets are worn on the head even though we have necks now, and I thought about a simple version of your suggestion, looked at the clothing code and was like, "well, some other time..."  We'll have to see.

Quote from: voliol
Are you more decided on the issue of Adventure/ASCII mode making it in the initial Steam/itch.io release, or is that still up in the air?

For that matter, what about Legends mode? It was also included in point 5 of the roadmap, but as something closer to being finished, with only (?) the maps left to be done. Were those maps among the screens that were done this past month? It would be nice to be able to say ”Fortress and Legends modes, maybe Adventure and ASCII modes” instead of ”Fortress and maybe Legends, Adventure and ASCII modes” when people ask what’s coming in the (initial) Steam release.

The maps are still missing, but Legends mode is fit for its primary purpose.  You can look at all the main pages and pop between them with the hyperlinks, and the age chronology is there.

Currently we are leaning toward a graphical Fort mode release - the community votes went solidly that way (about 2:1 as I recall), and the money situation is now slightly worrying though probably okay.  It seems like a first good fort release then doing followups would be prudent and what people want us to do.  As people know, I'm a big adv mode proponent (it's slowly becoming what the original draglay/armok were shooting for), but I don't think doing a series of releases will hurt anything, and fort mode is plenty of game.  It's just a little weird to not have it there to start, for Boatmurdered etc. purposes.

The ASCII part is theoretically faster to do, and I haven't discounted it as a possibility yet - but if I get stuck in a morass of graphics-ASCII button conversions that are trickier than I imagined, it won't help our current releaselessness and the possible problems it is causing.  It also seems like something we can do after people have a big chunk of game in their hands.

Quote from: gchristopher
Will there be changes to cart/track physics or build possibilities? e.g. Impulse ramps are a bug, but a wonderful one that'd be sad to lose without a replacement. Lots of current cart engineering relies on deep understanding of derailment and checkpoint effects. (Which has both good and bad aspects.) Will anything change mechanically?

Ha ha, I'm somewhat aware of the oddities and have thus far decided to just leave it since it's possible to get there stuck there for a long while.  When Roadmap Stage 3 (the focus on bugs) begins, we might address some bits but yeah, I generally don't think we should remove fun/useful bugs if we don't replace them with new systems (e.g. quantum stockpiles.)  And adding new systems is more dangerous as we get closer to release.

Quote from: Buttery_Mess
1. Have the tutorials been finalised? Do they cover everything?

Are starting scenarios/goals incoming in the near or long term?

Does the Steam release include a new intro movie?

Will the Steam release include new music? If so, has the music been made yet?

Will the Steam release include any sound (even if it's just menu clicks or something)? If not, will there be plans to include sounds in the future?

Mr Crabman: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8375491#msg8375491

Mr Crabman addressed much of this.  Tutorials not finalized - I've added a pile of tooltips, I'm going to do instructional popups, and then we'll see if we feel like we need something more interactive or step by step.  Because of the procedural geography of play maps, it's complicated to support in-depth tutorials (we either need a premade map, which has several major issues, or a reactive-to-your-genned-map tutorial, which is probably impossible to safeguard), but if they are needed, we'll have to do something.

Haven't made a new movie.  It's beyond my capabilities to embed something graphical there, even if I had the file sitting there.

Music is in progress!

We have some sounds so far, but not many.  I'm hoping for more, and shouldn't have an issue supporting them if we get them together.

Quote from: Tachytaenius
Hey, I was told I could ask a specific science question in this thread if all else failed, so...
How is exhaustion from firing a crossbow calculated? I know it uses attributes but what's the exact equation for what gets added to the counter value?
Many thanks for bringing DF into the world and apologies for the minor derailment

Exertion is just 20 points it looks like, and then that interacts with attributes when it actually has effects like falling over.  The firing delay is 80 but then it rolls several dice, and if they are less than your skill, it takes off 8 points each.  The dice are 0-2,5,7,15,100.

Quote from: Urist McSadist
1.Once bows and crossbows will get proper arcs, will modders have the option to keep the current firing lines for things like guns?
2.Will cage traps be nerfed before magic?
3.After the magic update, will there be more generic effects? As an example, could there be a spell that turns you into an animal and lets you pick which one?
4.I remember seeing a generated myth where the goblins were a cursed version of the dwarves. How exactly does that work?

1. Ha ha, I think there'll continue to be support for magical projectiles, so I think that's the case.  And I'm not sure how bows and crossbows are going to work.  Arcs there may end up be flirting with various AI/CPU/interface disasters.
2. This is quite possible, since they intersect very heavily with the siege improvement section of the army arc.
3. This also seems quite possible.  One of the goals is to have more player control of vaguer effects.
4. In the prototype, certain 'evil' critters or categories are designated as possible curse outcomes, and it's generally for some major offense like rebellion against the gods.  I expect post-prototype it will be more complicated.

Quote from: BlueManedHawk
What gameplay value does it add to have so many different kinds of stone, wood, vermin, gems, etc. when most of them are, for many practical purposes, exactly the same?  How does this help to make the game more fun?

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377424#msg8377424
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377430#msg8377430
BlueManedHawk (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377487#msg8377487
FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8377506#msg8377506

I like having lots of stuff, and I think it helps with player story creation.  I'd like to differentiate stuff more of course, especially the animals, but even without mechanical differentiation, I think it's still positive as long as the interfaces aren't overwhelmed (as they sometimes are.)

Quote from: falcc
When the second villain release is complete, what will the requirements be for a dwarf that dreams of ruling the world to be recognized as their dream having been achieved?

I guess they'd have to rule the world ha ha ha.  Does that mean a successful puppet leading every civ?  Maybe that's pushing it.

Quote from: voliol
Are the settings ThreeToe talked about in this devlog post the same as the ones in init.txt and d_init.txt, but with some more control over difficulty? Or will those settings have their own (in-game) menu?

It depends.  There are three categories currently.  World gen parameters (set before making a world), embark difficulty parameters (set on a per-fort basis, with settings persisting on unretire but not reclaim), and during-play settings from the to-be-written settings menu.

The current thinking is that difficulty triggers and such live at the per-fort level.  Stuff like popcap, weather, temp, etc. that is more related to FPS/tech concerns will be in the during-play settings.  Nothing should require messing with a txt file anymore, though it'll still read from there if you want to mess with it more permanently.  If we have time, we'll add profiles you can save/load as well.

There's some question about whether certain difficulty settings like wave caps are more of a difficulty or FPS concern.  Right now those live at per-fort, but things may get moved around.

Quote from: EuchreJack
When buying off Goblins with an Artifact, do original books count?

They use the villain rules right now, which cut out books.  Hopefully we can have scholarly villans and rulers in the future that emphasize their book collections.  Then it would be amusing to try to pass off a copy, especially if you copy it after the siegers arrive and make the demand.

Quote from: ZM5
I can't remember if this has been asked before or not - but in regards to the music, is there gonna be support for situational music changes? I.e megabeast fight or siege in fort mode (maybe different tracks depending on the megabeast or sieging faction, same for adventure mode megabeast/night creature fights), fading out when shifting back to "peace" mode?

There'll be a certain number of triggers, yeah, though I'll probably only have time to add them at first for situations for which the vanilla game has a track.  Once we can say more about the music, we'll know how many vanilla triggers there are, but that's all still in progress as everybody is finishing up their respective stuff.

Quote from: squamous
Are there any factors besides ethical differences that impact the size of a civ's armies and/or war frequency? I've been genning a large humans-only world with multiple civs of differing ethics and I've noticed there seems to be a lot less fighting than what the population of civilizations should lead to, and I wonder if there might be any factors that I'm missing.

As for actual fighting, the personality of the leaders matter as I recall (excitement, confidence, ambition, deliberation), and the differences in population.  They make a risk roll based on those.

Quote from: WereDragon
Do undead peasants still show up in sieges? If not, why? If so, why dont they outnumber the actual soldiers considering necromancers probably shouldn’t be sending all soldiers when they’re primarily taking hamlets down.

Why do dragons take 1000 years to mature? They don’t typically survive that long in worldgen and actually breeding them in dwarf mode seems… slow. It just seems odd when compared to rocs 20 years to max size.

Are there any plans for minor raw changes before the steam update? Basically stuff like animal men into animal people. For clarity between a porcupine animal men man and a porcupine animal man woman as an example

I haven't changed this.  They just hand out weapons to the undead pops, it doesn't remember any of their professions from real life unless they were a historical figure (and I don't recall if it uses that information.)  And the necros don't have to source their weapons from anywhere, since we don't have economic data yet.

Long, long ago, I vaguely remember running worldgens 1000 years, though perhaps that era ended before dragons even grew.  It's aspirational.  And maybe after mythgen we'll get some longer numbers again, even if we can't run them all year by year.  Of course, procedural dragons are also in there somewhere, then it won't mean anything.

I'm not sure what all I will get to during Stage 3.  Some bugs and issues are more glaring, though I agree with the change, especially since in interviews/logs etc. we always call them animal people and basically never animal men.  It is the proper name.

Quote
Quote from: clinodev
There's a pretty good current reddit thread about problems with how necromancers work now.

As you're looking at difficulty options, what changes are planned for necromancers?
Quote from: LuuBluum
On this specifically, would it be worthwhile to both make having any sort of undead affiliation (necromancer and undead both) more implicitly hostile to living entities, and also for living undead/necromancer-created monsters to better purge their preexisting affiliations to be more implicitly hostile? I definitely noticed in my campaigns way too many flavors of undead something-or-others milling about casually, which doesn't seem quite right.

For difficulty we've just adjusted zombies to be more in-line with other siege ramp ups (which were also broken, but not as badly.)  But this doesn't address the worldgen situation, or the adventure mode situation, from your thread.  I'm not sure the former is a difficulty question exactly, and we aren't addresing adv mode yet.  But there could be some more changes with the bug fixes since necros/undead do have various problems.  Haven't looked at that closely yet.

Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
A quick question about world-gen…

Why does the line that says “Forming lakes…” change to “Forming lakes and minerals…”?  What is going on there?  I’ve searched both the wiki and the forums, but I can’t seem to find an answer.

It finishes the lakes, and then adds the minerals bit when it starts making the minerals ha ha.  I guess I ran out of y space or something.

Quote from: FantasticDorf
Quick question about the recent devlog

Maybe its too soon to say with the changes to nobles but: Regarding there are 2 types of nobles, [ELECTED] and [LAND_HOLDER] (occasionally a modded instance will mix the two) do [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] & [ELECTED] individuals such as mayors still count towards the caravan changes if you wanted a 'Republic' kind of fortress playstyle or wanted to stall nobles from appearing through conversing with the outpost liason.

The way the dialogue with the liaison works, when you cut off the nobles, you are opting out of ties with your civ, somewhat rebelliously.  We haven't made it more complicated.  You can mod out the nobles entirely and it should be fine.  We'll need to do more complicated diplomacy etc. and really model the relationship to make it better, but we may not have time for that.

Quote from: LuuBluum
Since below-ground farming was changed, will we also see some changes to aboveground farming in a similar vein?

On that same note, do you think there would be enough time to work in seasons for aboveground crops, to keep them on-par with the belowground ones?

Aboveground farming is at least theoretically dangerous or requires the building of a wall, and we figured that was something.  Shallow soil farming allowed you safety for no cost.

Ha ha, I have no idea what the seasons should be for all those plants.  Probably don't have time for the research and data entry.

Quote from: voliol
I feel there will be/is a lot of questions this month, I hope I’m personally not overdoing it...

1. Can you assign non-wearable/non-carryable items to nobles, like furniture, and what happens then? Do they want them in their rooms, or is any deeper functionality left for a more thorough look at nobles at a later point in time (starting scenarios?).
2. Can you assign multiple items to the same position? Like a royal amulet and a royal scepter? Or is the idea that the item is a proof of identity, thereby making multiple items redundant/tricky to deal with?

1. It only lets you pick a sublist of holdable/wearable items, similar to the villian claim list.  The symbolic side of it would only see the items for theft/recovery purposes anyway, so furniture would be wasted there as the code stands.  We've just added a wear/hold function on top of that.  You can always put furniture in their rooms of course.  We haven't incorporated symbols into demands but that's something I can see spreading out into the old furniture demands and such too.
2. Yeah, you can assign as many as you want.  They don't use them for identity purposes, but since faking identities is one of the few lies we are supporting/planning to support in the game, having multiple symbols should be fine as we get further into villainy.

Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
What, exactly, is meant by “irritation” in the most recent devlog?  At first, I read it as “irrigation” but then I noticed it was actually “irritation” and now I’m confused…

Su: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8378287#msg8378287

Yeah, there's an irritation level for every underground feature.  That's been true for a long time, but it was only used by forgotten beasts and there other bits there that made it not matter very much.  Now it matters more tightly for forgotten beasts and also underground animal people.  And there's an aboveground version.

Quote from: Su
the latest devpost says that the Z-screen has been removed and replaced with a tooltip.

how are keyboard users going to access this information? i'm becoming increasingly worried that keyboard support is going to become a second-class citizen, with controls going unshown and features becoming outright unavailable without the use of a mouse.

on an arguably more positive note - is there an official link to the updated roadmap? it sounds like things are nearing completion.

This may be the case.  For instance, there are no keyboard cursors right now.  People generally wanted 50 keypresses to be replaced by a few mouse clicks, and I don't think there were any general proponents of the keyboard in this case.  There are some specific concerns, like with macros and stuff, but those would probably be better replaced by interactive blueprints etc. as in Factorio and etc.  I'm all for hotkeys of course, and being able to pull up various information and get things selected quickly with the keyboard, but I've been leaning against replacement cursors and haven't heard a case for them.  I've never seen a similar modern game use keyboard cursors, because it requires so many keypresses, something people have hated and mocked about DF for many years.  And once we admit the mouse at all, wealth display being a hover etc. isn't a concern (although arguably it works as a hotkey for speed purposes.)  But perhaps mouse use is a barrier generally for you - I haven't really heard from the keyboard-only side since they were the only side we'd been supporting to this point.

We haven't been updating a roadmap - it's just that one news post ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174112.msg8354566#msg8354566 ).  And we've only just gotten through the first part, with the big question being whether we first release after Stage 3 or 4 or 5 or 6.

Quote from: BrythonLexi
What is presented publicly is that generated sites keep track of what they produce every week, such as milking or woodcrafting.  I would like to know details of how this affects the world in general, but particularly:
- Items that adventurers are able to see and purchase in market stalls and shops of human towns, and trade depots of dwarven fortresses.  Do those, and/or the existence of particular shops in general, get affected by such production?
- Caravans received in Fortress Mode.  Are the products of those relevant civs generated spontaneously based on player need, or resource production and availability of the civilization sending merchants?
- Do those weekly production cycles continue post world-generation?  For this question, that includes the 2 weeks between embarks/adventures, during Fortress Mode, and during Adventure Mode?
I imagine a "No" answer to mean that the items that exist at the end of world generation are all that will ever exist in Adventure Mode - that clearing a Mead Hall of items, then playing 10 years of a fortress, then returning to that Mead Hall in a new adventurer would still result in an empty Mead Hall.

For some reason, this loop of world generation regarding production and trade is something that has been keeping me thinking.  If you wish to provide those details, it would mean a lot to learn how it works behind the hood, and what the consequences are for the rest of the game post-generation.

It's a whole huge thing, way too big for what it does, so I can't really go into all of it here.  There's a division of labor, lots of migration, the crops are tracked week by week, town expertise is tracked which results in the various shop divisions, and every resource and product is also tracked, including its source.  This is why people in the market stalls in adv mode can yell about where the stuff comes from - all of those statements are factual.

As I recall, this includes not just all the purchaseable items in towns, but most of the furniture and food in buildings.  If I recall, the dwarf forts only have beds in some of the bedrooms because their bed resource stockpile from worldgen had that many to provide.  But of course there are a lot of cut corners too, especially for newer stuff - shrines for instance, with their statues and dice, are all generated rather than pulled from resource piles, and I believe that's also true of all doors.

Caravans are continuously arriving and new stuff isn't made, and it's a lot more stuff than the typical adventurer will grab, so their stuff all has to be generated.  The goods do take local materials into consideration.

The weekly cycles stop after world gen.  That's basically where I stopped way back during the caravan arc as far as I remember.  Got world gen production in as a model for post world gen, but didn't start post world gen.  And yeah, if you clear out the categories of objects that come from the worlgen stockpiles, they won't return.

Quote from: Bumber
Several months ago I asked a question about a tile flag check for adventure mode and got a reply:

Quote
In adventure mode, the visible tile flag is the 5th bit.  It cohabitates with some of the dwarf mode digging stuff to save room.  Since I think the dwarf hidden flag might be if you ever saw it, not if you currently see it, where a new flag was needed.

Would you mind sharing what any of the other overlapping flags are?

Yeah, 4 through 9.  4 is 'lit', 5 is 'visible', 6-8 are that green memory map thing, and 9 is 'original cave', which impacts what name is displayed at the bottom maybe, maybe some placement stuff too though I don't recall.

In dwarf mode, 5-9 are used for designations (digging and smoothing.)  4 is for stockpiles.

Quote
Quote from: Eric Blank
so from the 5/30 devlog, if I'm reading it correctly it sounds like there are now settings to explicitly control forgotten beast attacks and what sounds like animal man tribe attacks. Are animal man tribes going to attack in an ambusher style raids, and if so, what are their objectives? To steal items, kill dwarves, or annihilate our fort?

Like goblin sieges, can their demands be satisfied?

And on the topic of goblin sieges, does the new artifact demand happen every time or will they give up on making demands and just attack you after a while?
Quote from: FantasticDorf
Question in a similar vein: 1) Will animal-tribe irritables defined by [LAYER_LINKED] have any soft supportive additions to make them more than a enviromental hazard (maybe even playable on the level of a normal civ)?

2)'ly is the irritation global amongst all underground dwellers, or will the player be taking the Ire of a particular group.

Currently [SUBTERREANEAN LINKED] has mixed pro's & cons, (free layer animals, nobody knows who you are, not even yourself since you're not a civ), I can imagine once the update comes in, modders might want to upgrade the tribe people to less primitive forms (and attempt to emulate them). Its definitely appealing, as the only otherwise thematic entrance of underground dwellers currently appears by a disaster, which is workable for modding means but not always optimal.

Underground animal people want to shoot you with poison darts and stab you and have their mounts and beasts chew you and things.  There's no negotiation or theft as it stands.  They've always been sort of evil and non-specific compared to the aboveground ones.  And we don't have time to do anything complicated with playability or anything.

Irritation is measure for each layer of the fort separately, and I don't think there's more than one civ per layer locally, though I don't recall precisely how they divide space up.
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Rumrusher

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4543 on: June 01, 2022, 11:56:53 pm »

Currently we are leaning toward a graphical Fort mode release - the community votes went solidly that way (about 2:1 as I recall), and the money situation is now slightly worrying though probably okay.  It seems like a first good fort release then doing followups would be prudent and what people want us to do.  As people know, I'm a big adv mode proponent (it's slowly becoming what the original draglay/armok were shooting for), but I don't think doing a series of releases will hurt anything, and fort mode is plenty of game.  It's just a little weird to not have it there to start, for Boatmurdered etc. purposes.

-snip-

This may be the case.  For instance, there are no keyboard cursors right now.  People generally wanted 50 keypresses to be replaced by a few mouse clicks, and I don't think there were any general proponents of the keyboard in this case.  There are some specific concerns, like with macros and stuff, but those would probably be better replaced by interactive blueprints etc. as in Factorio and etc.  I'm all for hotkeys of course, and being able to pull up various information and get things selected quickly with the keyboard, but I've been leaning against replacement cursors and haven't heard a case for them.  I've never seen a similar modern game use keyboard cursors, because it requires so many keypresses, something people have hated and mocked about DF for many years.  And once we admit the mouse at all, wealth display being a hover etc. isn't a concern (although arguably it works as a hotkey for speed purposes.)  But perhaps mouse use is a barrier generally for you - I haven't really heard from the keyboard-only side since they were the only side we'd been supporting to this point.

Glad to see advmode is becoming what armok 1 was suppose to be, though kinda wonder how is the whole mouse changes with fort mode going to relate to adv mode? I know there some mouse control in the adventure mode's item crafting menus in the current build but like is the idea also to do away with keyboard controls also there? or is Adv mode going to have a mouse and keyboard set up  like I can see some stuff that could be done with mouse like the painting and drawing designations but only mouse feels like it could lead to a different set of wrist and hand issues than the repeated keystrokes caused. like I'm down for more accessibility options with the mouse but I feel like removing keyboard controls would bring up a different set of accessibility issues.

that all said I'm really glad you added in the means to retire forts to dwarf fortress toady, that open up playing fort mode in several different ways right down to being able to move in non dwarven folks into the fort outside of visitors and guest petitions, and as someone who mostly play adventure mode it pretty much granted me more time to check out that game mode for at least putting in adventurers to defend the place.


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