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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2602435 times)

sofanthiel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5550 on: July 31, 2023, 01:19:36 am »

As of right now, the player is informed of the outcomes of battles only upon the return of the squads they send out.  In regards to the future release of better diplomacy/military management, you've talked about implementing more conventional total war-ish 4x strategy combat, with us getting a real-time view of entire armies fighting in enemies' settlements.  Is the current approach of information having to travel through the world via messengers and alike going to be replaced by the player being instantly notified of everything as it happens, or do you have some way to mitigate the conflict between these 2 somewhat clashing systems?

I, personally, think the idea of mail pigeons and misunderstandings between civilizations due to an emissary not making it somewhere on time, thus resulting in a great war, would be cool, but either of these methods, if incompatible, will be great!
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Pillbo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5551 on: August 03, 2023, 12:30:41 am »

Elves aren't really much of a threat in the current build of the game. I understand nothing is finished, but it made me wonder-- How do you imagine the elves in some finished version of the game you are working towards? As far as combat and magical abilities, wisdom or intelligence, etc when compared to the other species.

Do you think of them as being more of a threat or will they always be less dangerous in battle than the other species? Or will they be deadly force once magic is in play?


(I'm aware the future of the game is more variety of everything in each world. I'm more interested in how Toady imagines the creatures in his 'head canon')
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dikbutdagrate

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5552 on: August 03, 2023, 06:40:43 pm »

Will any adventure mode glitches be fixed for the steam release? For example, will the glitch where if you fast travel after being transformed into a giant animal by divination dice then exit fast travel you turn back to normal again before the week is up be fixed?

I still remember running across the length of an entire continent in real time as a rhesus macaque, just so I could wait out the transformation. I dunno what it was, but I was determined to deal with the curse without taking the easy out, but man was that horrible, lol. Thats interesting you say it ends early though. For me, it always just crashes the game.

edit: clarity
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 05:40:56 am by dikbutdagrate »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5553 on: August 04, 2023, 01:59:18 am »

Elves aren't really much of a threat in the current build of the game. I understand nothing is finished, but it made me wonder-- How do you imagine the elves in some finished version of the game you are working towards? As far as combat and magical abilities, wisdom or intelligence, etc when compared to the other species./color]

(I'm aware the future of the game is more variety of everything in each world. I'm more interested in how Toady imagines the creatures in his 'head canon')

It used to be the case that elves utilized ents in the earliest iterations. Perhaps it will come into the military arc's end of inflicting curses upon fortressess who shut themselves away but thats all up to Toady. (link to refer back to mention of ents in 2021 using the [MAGICAL] and [VEGETATION] tags)

On elves themselves, often they're a meatgrinder opponent that tests your traphalls by the sheer volume, such as giant animals being too heavy to pull up your bridges or pressure plates, or if you didn't build a couple of trap-halls interlinked on a longer route, sending forward so much warrior and animal fodder that the mechanisms jam and let the rest of the force run past.
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dikbutdagrate

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5554 on: August 05, 2023, 08:38:47 pm »

Will divine metal items be getting their own palette swapped variations in the near future, or is it just something thats not even on the radar?

At present, the color differences are only respected in ASCII mode. And due to how the divine metals populate during world-gen, its not clear, at least to me, whether modders are, or will be, able to assign their individual sprite graphics for all the different different divine metal items, or are at least do so safely. It would be neat to see a wider color palette on these.


edit: brevity
« Last Edit: August 06, 2023, 04:56:28 pm by dikbutdagrate »
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DPh Kraken

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5555 on: August 07, 2023, 12:43:17 am »

Will divine metal items be getting their own palette swapped variations in the near future, or is it just something thats not even on the radar?

Divine items are affected by palettes, but the coloration is set to gray in the sprite due to raw-parsing details not outwardly evident until Premium. Using extracted raws, the issue is that the [STATE_COLOR] tag is placed before the [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE] tag is implemented, thus causing it to be overwritten by metal's [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:GRAY]. From my testing in arena mode in both 47 and 50, the metal template also overwrites the ASCII colors by virtue of being placed after it.
Datamining raws say that rusted metal should be rust-colored and 4:0:0, but DFHack corroborates that its state color is gray and has a 7:0:0 display color. The same bug affects divine silks as well, except with silk's white coloration.
Reflecting that in the unit picture is probably going to be a question of doing palettization at runtime, since divine materials currently don't have consistent IDs to reference.

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5556 on: August 08, 2023, 01:54:04 am »

Quote from: Vanzetti
People have noted that waves breaking on the shore, and the foam they spread around, currently look a lot less impressive in Graphics mode than in ASCII mode. Is there a plan to remedy this?

Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486827#msg8486827
Vanzetti (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486853#msg8486853

It's one of the things on the art list!  It's complicated by the existence of the actual ocean-type tiles, so would have to align with that, making it inherently blocky, but that's been true of lots of things.

Quote from: Nihilich
1) When you say that you plan for everything from the old version to be on steam, does that mean you plan to add the old intro movies back to the game? They're iconic and I love how they set the mood.

2) What is the nature of the code-sharing deal you worked out with the DF hack team? Are you taking precautions against potential copyright issues?

clinodev: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486887#msg8486887
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8486943#msg8486943
Nihilich (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487051#msg8487051
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487083#msg8487083

1) Ha, well those haven't made it back to classic either.  They're still in limbo.  I still think it might be too confusing for people to be hit with ASCII when they explicitly buy something thought to be not the ASCII version of a thing that had been solely ASCII for 20 years, but maybe it's fine.

2) The replies address this.  We haven't been doing anything there, mostly -- I believe there is something involving custom keybindings Putnam sent over, and it's a small enough type of thing and so game specific that I'm not worried about broader copyright sourcing issues as long as the bits themselves are licensed under zlib etc.

Quote from: Majer3RD
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the state of diplomacy and interaction between the other civilizations? Do you intend to expand on diplomacy and maybe even visiting other locations with diplomats? Absolutely love your work on this game and will forever tip my hat to you for such an amazing life project.

Potential thought on the diplomat visiting idea. Could there be a mini-adventurer mini game within fortress mode? Maybe it utilizes squad mode to control your diplomat and navigate the visiting fortress to reach and find said siteís leader, all the while avoiding traps and unruly citizens or other unwanted guests at a location.

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487187#msg8487187

Yeah, as voliol replied, there are a few shorter term (as in army stuff) goals involving peace discussions and raising troops and alliances that should happen before we get to the more complicated rewrites.  As for actually playing them, seeing other sites and interacting with them while your fort is in play is under the multiple viewport part of the map rewrite.  That's more involved but should lead to all sorts of neat interactions.

Quote from: Tekkud
With a military uniform overhaul on the table, I'm curious if it has ever crossed your mind to make it possible to designate some clothing as military only? Surely there's plenty of ways to make it work. Perhaps an 'equipment use' menu akin to the 'stone use' menu, or just rigid priority for the military to claim uniform items before civilians. I bet there's a dozen ways to skin such a cat.

Especially with premium graphics, the idea of having a military equipped with identifying garments is compelling, at least for me. Grizzly bear leather cloaks embroidered with the symbol of our warrior deity, and a helm studded with the visage of each forgotten beast slain by its wearer? Yes please! To less flamboyant ends, lots of players I interact with just want the humble option to give their favorite Dwarf a special shirt.

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487385#msg8487385

Yeah, specific tweaks work better in suggestions, but generally, it would be good to fix up stuff that makes the existing uniform creator not work well, like civilians snatching stuff up that you'd rather they not use, kind of like a noble mandate by the player, with a few grumpy dwarves perhaps if the materials line up with their prefs.

Quote from: Salvadaddy
Would you consider altering the lifespan of the Sponge Man to be more sponge-like? Currently they live between 60-80 years, while regular sea sponges can live for thousands

lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487554#msg8487554

Ha ha, yeah, that's definitely a suggestion.  Generally I'd agree that simple sponge-like alterations make sense if the biology lines up.  Although we've had trouble in the past making sponges too sponge-like, or at least, spongey in some sense that made them less killable.

Quote from: Majer3RD
I canít seem to find a full answer as to why, but is there anyway for me to edit the engraving text phrases used when one makes a custom slab or art description? I would even love it if we could somehow have a custom text fill in option too if that was somehow possible. Mainly I figured we should be able to at least alter the existing phrases to read a little bit different if desired but the only answer I seem to get is, itís hardcoded. Is there a reason this is the case?

A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487788#msg8487788

There isn't a way to do it currently.  I'm not sure why there would be a full answer as to why, since it's just a feature that's not in the game.  It takes time to do things.  I think it's fine though I generally lean toward letting the dwarves decide how they want to memorialize somebody.  As with the custom art though, there's no reason why the player shouldn't be able to do custom stuff.

Quote from: Silverwing235
Given that UI is your current focus: are you aware of certain procgen code shenanigans (gremlin-style lever pulling, I guess) causing disruption in adv character gen, such as this (Kitfox: https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/1049402643342168114/1119264182093758541); also a long-standing calendar ☼engraving☼ that needs attention?

EDIT: Looks like someone's also taken issue (Kitfox:https://discord.com/channels/329272032778780672/847643850612801536/1133749707257168004) with, IIRC, your marking of the 'Outsider' category for (programmatic) dumping, as it were. Care to remind us just what that was about?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8487802#msg8487802

It's not letting me follow the links for whatever reason.  But if it's a bug yeah, it's better to report it.  I can't track stuff from here.

Quote from: Majer3RD
Any idea on when you think youíll do so more work on the way the text for engravings and artwork is utilized? Will you be adding custom line functions or at least more to the existing lists of current options?

It's hard to say when a given thing will happen, but we have some statues and engraving artwork ready to go.  There will have to be new txt tags for them.

Quote from: dikbutdagrate
YES! Do it! Procedural alchemy is YES! Go for it! Initial release could be full random, and I imagine that would be highly entertaining.
Relevant: Have you ever played Alchemists, the board game?

Nope!

Quote from: hitorigochi
Hello. I am a novice and I have a problem that has been bothering me. How do dwarves write without pen and ink? I see dwarves writing in the library without the need for pen and ink. Will pens and ink be added in the future? Because writing in the library doesn't require pen and ink, it feels like the words written on paper are out of thin air. It feels strange.
Another question, do dwarves not use any tools when fishing? Will fishing rods be added in the future?

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489088#msg8489088
hitorigochi (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489106#msg8489106
SeeSchloss: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489248#msg8489248
etc.

As PatrikLundell replied, many jobs don't use tools and many don't use materials.  There's a certain amount of clutter we can't absorb in fort mode especially.  But I think ink is cool and probably makes sense, since it would be reflected in the final product.  We have some notes about it and several suggestions I think.  I know I also have an old email about it from somebody that studies medieval inks, or something like that.

Quote from: ror6ax
When will the merch be available in Europe?

I have no idea.  Fangamer or Kitfox probably know.  I'll make a note to ask and reply back here.

Quote from: ShiraKage
1a- About future law arc, will we have a bounty system? It would be good if the only way to learn someone's bounty is looking at boards in the towns or with rumors (rumors can be wrong but you will never know until you find the truth). Also bounties can change depending on person's crimes. Also I would love playing as a bounty hunter and compete with other bounty hunters in the world. If you become more and more popular, towns could also ask for help (both for our player and other characters)

1b- If they catch us and put in a prison, will we actually live in a prison life? Like maybe every prison has its own rules, difficulty (easy to escape or more developed and hard to escape), different guardians (some guardians are more friendly, some are more strict) more interactions with people in prison, trade with them etc.
 
2- About myth and magic arc, will we see different kinds of magical systems like maybe a world which only way to cast a magic spell is upgrade items and weapons with runes or other materials?

voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489647#msg8489647

1a- there have been discussions about it.  Not sure when it'll happen.  There's a chunk on this one on the dev page at http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html .

1b- Interesting prisons have been the settings for entire RPGs.  So as long as it's fun, it works.  It's a bit complicated getting the player there with the rest of the world going on, but generally being captured and moved is also one of those things knocking around on dev pages.

2- We're hoping for some variety in the procedural systems.  Hard to say what we'll get on the first pass!

Quote from: hitorigochi
Will anti piracy features be added in the future? I found that the game can be opened without starting Steam.

sofanthiel: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489799#msg8489799
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489848#msg8489848

Yeah, as Putnam said, no plans to add anti-piracy stuff and potentially cause trouble for people.  Things are going fine.

Quote from: Bottle
1. Is still the case that the map rework is required before adventure mode? This means world generation is being reworked, right?

2. Do you plan to add ways to influence world generation beyond parameters? E.g. civ placement, a "pre history" terrain editor, a way to influence the chronology of creation, design a god to be worshipped, way to more precisely choose how many of each type of civ will be added etc.

3. Any plans to add more interactions / consequences based on personalities / beliefs in the near future?

4. I understand Putnam's focus is on multi threading / performance enhancements. Once these are stable and performance is acceptable, what's her next focus? Bugs? new mechanics/New features? Adventure mode/fortress mode? Some combination?

(I know choosing the number of each civ for world generation can be done already by editing RAWS but it's cumbersome)

Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8489988#msg8489988
PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8490070#msg8490070

1. Yeah, the replies are correct here - the map rework will be done after the adventure mode update.

2. In the future, yeah, this is the "editors" side of the myth/magic stuff, which basically just means a bunch of ways to incorporate presets or constrained procedural stuff, in addition or replacing the pure procedural stuff.

3. Aside from what comes up when we do villains/army stuff, not really, though the villains/army stuff includes quite a bit of this.  I'm not sure what else will happen incidentally.

4. I don't have much to add to Putnam's reply here, ha ha.  We don't have a fixed plan for it.

Quote from: falcc
Now that you have a lot more money at your disposal, have you given any thought to paying scholars on things like historical crafting methods (or cooking, the tech tree, farming etc when you eventually revisit them) to consult for future changes to those respective systems?

There's a lot of cool broke nerds out there that would enjoy seeing their niche field of study and related books exposed on steam, especially as academic labor strikes start up again in the fall. But I can also understand if the studying you put in is part of the fun of your job, or if that would throw off your long term calculations for all the staff you've got now. Thanks for the answers and for the game!

A lot of historical stuff is already reflected far beyond what's currently in the game over on the suggestions board.  There's a ton of information there already that's been digested a bit gamewise, though part of the problem is doing that, which I have to do myself at some stage in the process.  So I'm not really sure how this would be structured or what needs to be looked at even more deeply.  I know I've complained a bit about the 'tech tree' - it's not clear to me if some of the current suggestions (I know there are a few extensive ones) would benefit a lot from being looked at.  Probably, but I still feel pretty far away from it.

Quote from: ryno
i was wondering why stone cavern floors arent color palleted per type so they match the walls

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8490792#msg8490792

Yeah, Eric Blank's reply is right - it can be pretty distracting.  We're toying around with trying muted optional colors.  Other mining-type games seem to make it work okay, but we'll see how it looks.

Quote from: Svenor
i was wondering about animal alimentation, after seeing that Pandas eat bamboos in the game. i didn't have bamboo on my embark but i really wanted to have a panda zoo in this fort, so i went to the raw to make them classic grazers.
i commented the specific alimentation token and it made me wonder why animal alimentation is so simple in the game, when the code seems almost complete on this part (there is a token for specific alimentation, it goes a little beyond "grazers eat grass"). apart from grazers (and pandas and maybe other specific animals), they don't need any food or water to survive, in my forts, it often became a empty rock chamber entirely populated by pigs that i open only to bring a few of them to the butcher shop.

1- Do you intend to expend on that in the future, handling carnivors eating other animals, etc ?
2- if so, do you tie it with a major future update in particular or do you class it in a "minor tweaks" group  ?

There's a lot to do, and of course we never got there.  It's definitely all in the minor tweaks group.  The major arcs are kind of set out for years and years.  But lots of random minor stuff gets done during that time.

Quote from: Beag
Will any adventure mode glitches be fixed for the steam release? For example, will the glitch where if you fast travel after being transformed into a giant animal by divination dice then exit fast travel you turn back to normal again before the week is up be fixed?

mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8491690#msg8491690
dikbutdagrate: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8492362#msg8492362

As mikekchar says, definitely some things will be fixed.  I don't have a prognosis on specific bugs.  That particular one has the complication of needing to track syndrome information and advance it properly abstractly for historical figures, which simply isn't done and is difficult because we don't have access to their bodies etc.

Quote from: sofanthiel
As of right now, the player is informed of the outcomes of battles only upon the return of the squads they send out.  In regards to the future release of better diplomacy/military management, you've talked about implementing more conventional total war-ish 4x strategy combat, with us getting a real-time view of entire armies fighting in enemies' settlements.  Is the current approach of information having to travel through the world via messengers and alike going to be replaced by the player being instantly notified of everything as it happens, or do you have some way to mitigate the conflict between these 2 somewhat clashing systems?

I, personally, think the idea of mail pigeons and misunderstandings between civilizations due to an emissary not making it somewhere on time, thus resulting in a great war, would be cool, but either of these methods, if incompatible, will be great!

Yeah, we have the concept of messengers vaguely in the game, and we're going to expand on that.  However, having player participation in battles is also important, just for fun.  So there's a balance between those we're going to try to strike, probably where you can experience battles with your specific squad leaders but if you have more forces where you haven't attached a fort squad, you'll have to hear from those in the normal way.  But it's not quite clear where the balance will land.  Similarly, in adventure land, there's your created party (or single adventurer), and everybody else - you'll probably have more POV options on your created characters.

Quote from: Pillbo
Elves aren't really much of a threat in the current build of the game. I understand nothing is finished, but it made me wonder-- How do you imagine the elves in some finished version of the game you are working towards? As far as combat and magical abilities, wisdom or intelligence, etc when compared to the other species.

Do you think of them as being more of a threat or will they always be less dangerous in battle than the other species? Or will they be deadly force once magic is in play?

(I'm aware the future of the game is more variety of everything in each world. I'm more interested in how Toady imagines the creatures in his 'head canon')

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8492407#msg8492407

Yeah, they used to be more magical.  I remember the arrows that would turn into wood spike balls and make chunks pop out.  I'm not sure if that's still the plan though.  I think more friendship with animal people should make them more dangerous certainly.  I'm not sure they'll ever be great at sieging the interior of a fortress but they should be able to lock you in their tighter by squeezing you with nature in some manner.  And they ambush and eat people.  So that should feel scary in a way it doesn't now.

Quote from: dikbutdagrate
s
Will divine metal items be getting their own palette swapped variations in the near future, or is it just something thats not even on the radar?

At present, the color differences are only respected in ASCII mode. And due to how the divine metals populate during world-gen, its not clear, at least to me, whether modders are, or will be, able to assign their individual sprite graphics for all the different different divine metal items, or are at least do so safely. It would be neat to see a wider color palette on these.

DPh Kraken: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8492899#msg8492899

Yeah, if there's a bug there's a bug (per DPh Kraken's reply), and for equipped items, I have an art file with palettes ready, I believe.  Just have to implement.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5557 on: August 08, 2023, 02:50:37 am »

Regarding the character art intro, an idea might be to include it but default it to off, so players would have to opt in to get it, as opposed to the normal standard of having to disable intros you don't want. Those who miss the intro would mostly be assumed to be capable of enabling it, and new people interested in it would be able to turn it on after having gotten to know about it.
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dikbutdagrate

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5558 on: August 08, 2023, 02:58:44 pm »

People have noted that waves breaking on the shore, and the foam they spread around, currently look a lot less impressive in Graphics mode than in ASCII mode. Is there a plan to remedy this?

For sure, and just moving water in general. But yeah, Toady is a master ascii artisan.
Sparkling effect when viewing moving water from a height of +2z levels was especially neat.

Gif of water doing water things:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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mikekchar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5559 on: August 08, 2023, 07:01:47 pm »

I feel the same way with the tree flowers falling at the end of spring/beginning of summer and the tree leaves turning color and falling in autumn.  Cherry blossoms being washed down the river, just like they do in real life, is truly incredible.  I do a lot of above ground fortresses just because the ASCII graphics are incredible.  As much as I like premium's graphics, for things like that, it's not even close to the original ASCII.  In fact, I don't think it *can* be as good.  There is something about your brain interpreting the symbols vs looking at a real pictoral representation that is very, very different.
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ryno

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5560 on: August 08, 2023, 10:02:06 pm »

on the top of graphics- thanks for answering my question and i for one pray for palletized stone cavern floors, i think they would look amazing! i relate to everyone's recent comments about the immersion that ASCII brings, and regarding the stone floors i just feel like it breaks my immersion for the same material to be 2 different colors Wall Vs Floor.

@dikbutdagrate thanks for making the gif for the ascii water. There's a video on youtube that i really like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8pV6UQybfw

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crazy_old_fisherman

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5561 on: August 09, 2023, 04:06:17 am »

At the risk of adding to a chorus, is there any update on MacOS versions. I've seen written by Putnam that it 'could be' as simple as pressing a button. An experienced developer myself I know this to be at the very least highly optimistic. However I would really love to know that it is too difficult to do rather than untried. May I also softly hint that MacOS users comprise about a third of the market (I could find the source but that would be pedantic even for me) and that as MacOS has switched to ARM64/aarch64 it might be prudent to release a version for the mac and linux users on ARM? I know that I at least have not bought a copy yet as it doesn't run on my personal computer. Perhaps this is true for a significant number of people.
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kipwheeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5562 on: August 09, 2023, 05:35:00 am »

I'm in the same boat as crazy_old_fisherman. I really want to try this game on my Mac, but I don't want to muck around with wineskin. Any updates on MacOS versions would be much appreciated. Does Putnam have access to a Mac yet to mess around with for that port?
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5563 on: August 09, 2023, 11:03:35 am »

Iirc there was discussion of working on Linux and Mac versions in the Blindirl interview with Tarn and Putnam recently, on Youtube
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5564 on: August 09, 2023, 03:28:25 pm »

When will the merch be available in Europe?

I had asked Alexandra Orlando at Kitfox about this a few days ago, and she messaged Fangamer (the merch company), and just got a reply.

Long story short, it's in the works, but there's no fixed date. It sounds like it depends almost entirely on Fangamer.
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