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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2717930 times)

Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5610 on: September 13, 2023, 04:57:07 pm »

I'm sorry for your loss, stay safe. :(
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Bralbaard

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5611 on: September 14, 2023, 12:43:23 am »

Best wishes for you and Threetoe, Toady.
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brewer bob

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5612 on: September 14, 2023, 12:59:56 am »

Sorry for your loss. Wishing you all the best and take your time to recover.

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5613 on: September 14, 2023, 02:23:44 pm »

Quote
Quote from: crazy_old_fisherman
At the risk of adding to a chorus, is there any update on MacOS versions. I've seen written by Putnam that it 'could be' as simple as pressing a button. An experienced developer myself I know this to be at the very least highly optimistic. However I would really love to know that it is too difficult to do rather than untried. May I also softly hint that MacOS users comprise about a third of the market (I could find the source but that would be pedantic even for me) and that as MacOS has switched to ARM64/aarch64 it might be prudent to release a version for the mac and linux users on ARM? I know that I at least have not bought a copy yet as it doesn't run on my personal computer. Perhaps this is true for a significant number of people.
Quote from: kipwheeler
I'm in the same boat as crazy_old_fisherman. I really want to try this game on my Mac, but I don't want to muck around with wineskin. Any updates on MacOS versions would be much appreciated. Does Putnam have access to a Mac yet to mess around with for that port?

mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493373#msg8493373
lethosor: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493385#msg8493385
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8494753#msg8494753

We're continue to follow the original plan, as reflected in the replies here.  Linux is nearly done (up on a public Steam beta now, ready to be swapped to the main line once the known issues are settled.)  That gets us through a lot of the compiler trouble, but not through the SDL2/FMod/etc/etc potential issues.  We'll just have to see where we are at once we have our hardware.

Regarding the soft hint, Mac people are more like 1-5% of Steam sales, depending on the game, since they are around 3% of Steam users, and the pre-Steam DF downloads reflected this as well, so it seems to be the general personal computer situation.  Maybe you are counting mobile?  In any case, 1% is enough reason to do a port.  Did it before, doing it now.  It's good when more people are able to play the game, and if they can do so without an emulator.  At some point it becomes a compilation/tech/hardware/virtual machine/etc. burden that's hard to overcome, for systems with fewer users, but 3% is a lot, really.  Same goes for translation/localization if we can ever figure that out.

Quote from: Silverwing235
@Threetoe: What was/is the intended pronunciation of the diacritics in Dwarven, and the other relevant languages, if possible?

mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493910#msg8493910
Silverwing235 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8493971#msg8493971
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8494037#msg8494037

No, there was never an intended pronunciation from us.  Don't even know what kinds of sounds dwarven mouths can make.

Quote from: Bralbaard
Maybe this has been discussed before, but I was wondering what the odds are that saves from the current version will be compatible with the future adventure mode release?

Odds are currently really good ha ha.  Something could come up, but it's less likely this time than it was with the fort mode conversion since the base objects of the game shared with adv mode have already been moved over, and I don't have to worry about active adv mode games the way I had to worry about active fort mode games, since there aren't any (in the versions we're compatible with.)

Quote from: Nihilich
You mentioned the color-matching of cave floors to their stone types being distracting, and that got me thinking: what's up with rock layer generation?
I know in earlier versions of DF (40d?) that the rock generation - or at least the metal generation - used to be different. From a geological standpoint, the generation today is quite strange, with giant ovals of different rock stacking over each other like the biggest layer cake on earth, from the circus to the surface. With every map tile, you basically know what you'll always get: a base square of layer stone, a giant oval of a different layer stone in the middle, and zero to several ores zigging through it.

Why is it done this way? Is this rock gen a holdover from the 23a days or such? Any plans to model, like, igneous intrusion, plate tectonics, stratified rocks, with the rock-tiles themselves in-game? Do geologists ever send you letters?

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496078#msg8496078

I don't think it was much different before, back in the 2D days.  Maybe veins were longer?  When I chopped the world up into 48x48 tiles for adv mode seamless movement and better embark selection, stuff had to be contained in those, without a lot of metadata or a more coherent global noise function or etc.  This is all solvable but hasn't been a priority, especially now while the map rewrite hangs over everything.

Quote from: Lozzymandias
Is there any plans to tighten up the needs system and make dwarfs a little better at satisfying their own needs if given the opportunity. There are good workarounds for everything but the 5 f's I believe: faith, family, friends, Food and... romance.

Bumber: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496372#msg8496372
Lozzymandias (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496405#msg8496405
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496418#msg8496418
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496442#msg8496442
Blue_Dwarf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496471#msg8496471
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496574#msg8496574

I'm not sure we'll be doing much with this until we get through adv mode etc.  It'll be interesting to see what goes into patches parallel to adv mode dev as the gnarlier issues get fixed.  Social issues generally have been an annoying problem for a long while, so it's not entirely off the radar there.

Quote from: Heiz
1. Will new quest system be the only feature we will get for adventure mode or there will be something soon in near future?
2. I heard there will be new starting scenarios one day and i thought that probably pretty big thing to add, so i wanted to ask if it will affect adventure mode as well, except that we will be able to find them in world and interact with npcs there? And will new scanerios be similar to fortress scenario or will it they give new mechanics or change them in any way? Will there be scenarios that you didn't mention or the list that we know is probably all scenarios that we will have?
3. After you add adventue mode will our worlds be able to work with it?

1. We're just trying to get adventure mode together at all now.  After that, there are the villains and army stuff and magic and so forth.  It's not clear what will be in the initial adventure mode release, from a strict conversion with some bug fixes up to some new features, since it'll depend on how long it takes.
2. Yeah, every start scenario is basically a new way for settlements to interact with the world and their own and other civilizations.  I expect that to reverberate through all the corners of the game.
3. If this is a save compatibility question, then that's expected, yeah.

Quote from: sofanthiel
I. Will we see a more fleshed-out and gradual development process with extra intermediate youth stages in the future (i.e., toddlers --> kids --> adolescents --> adults)?  It is quite odd for a dwarf to play make-believe with their toy boat one day and be recruited into the army the next.

II. If not, are there plans to alter either time progression or aging speed in order to balance out the fact that it takes 18 whole years for a resident to mature, making it harder to have fort-born babies grow up to adulthood, resulting in multi-generational fortresses being even less feasible now?

I+II.  I'd prefer to flesh out the process, sure.  I don't expect to change the speed, but it's straightforward to mod the ages to be faster.  The first myth pass will probably be when we start poking at the edges of how days/months/years/calendars/moons/suns/etc. are structured, and that would offer some kind of control, but the creature age progression is probably still independent of that and would just need a mod.

Quote from: Orange-of-Cthulhu
About the Steam release of Adv Mode - I wonder if the intention is "just" to do graphics and fix the many UIs, and then release it with pretty much the gameplay of the pre-Steam version - or if the goal is to streamline it some more before release by filling out some the "holes" in the gameplay - such as the impossibility of geting clothes and armor for very large/small animal people?

Shonai_Dweller: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8496954#msg8496954
Orange-of-Cthulhu (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497427#msg8497427
Bralbaard: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497763#msg8497763
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497794#msg8497794
Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498055#msg8498055
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498793#msg8498793
LuuBluum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498801#msg8498801
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8498810#msg8498810

It's just not clear at this point.  We're aware adv mode is a much rougher and less gamelike creature than fort mode (which is already somewhat rough and somewhat ungamelike), but regardless we're going to have to do the basic conversion, so we're focusing on that.  After the initial release, the plans are all heavily adv mode inflected anyway, so it's kind of interchangeable anyway.  The competing concerns are getting as timely a release as we can (relatively) and having a release that's a bit more polished in some sense.  Same as the fort mode concerns, really, but exacerbated.

Quote from: eerr
Will myth and magic include an achievable source of perpetual longevity? My fortresses in older versions evenually loose 10 dwarves every year to old age. It's kind of heartbreaking. I understand that death is to be accepted in dwarf fortress, but it should not be a third of a fortress for no reason, causing the player to abandon their history.

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497365#msg8497365
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8497372#msg8497372

I'm not sure what you mean by no reason.  Eventually it'll be the whole fort, since people die.  In fantasy etc. settings, and tales, etc., perpetual longevity usually comes at a cost, etc. etc., and I expect the myth/magic release will variously grapple with this.  The current necromancers being a simple version (and also a solution to your problem, if you get a book in the library, though of course there are all sorts of issues with that.)

Ultimately, if you want longevity as a technical addition to your playstyle, I'd just mod dwarves to be immortal.  The in-game stuff we offer later is generally going to be messier I think.

If your question is more pointing to something about how natural deaths are spaced out in a buggy way or something, that's a separate matter.  Maybe that would be because of migrant demographics being lumped with the fast waves up to 200?  Then there'd be an initial band of death but it would smooth out over time.  Like, a long time, a very very old fort.

Quote from: kontako
G'day Tarn. I vaguely seem to recall there being a 'smell' sense in adventure mode, and I was wondering if it applied in fortress mode.
Dogs are mentioned to have ...a keen sense of smell, but they look like they lack the SMELL_TRIGGER token. Is it important?
Are dogs in any way better at spotting sneaky intruders than any other animal? The wiki mentioned that hunting dogs have an improved observer skill, though it didn't seem to find it when I looked.

No there's nothing in fort mode generally for smell.  Hunting critters get a 50% increased view range for spotting sneaking people.  I'm not sure if it affects things in practice, since the function may have become unrelated.  Hunting creatures also sneak when accompanying a hunter, which should help with prey being spooked as they approach.  But I'm not sure.  Hunting units are very old.

Quote from: Kyo1995
Do you plan on messing with forgotten beasts' behavior for the villains update pt. 2? It would be cool to have scheming monsters trying to turn your fortress into a cult or something.

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8499731#msg8499731

There's a lot to do here, but the humanoid villains that can interact with civilization have more levers to pull so they'll continue to be the focus.  We did have a whole megabeast AI section as I recall up on dev, at least an outline of sorts.  Would still be good to make them properly troublesome in various ways.

Quote from: clinodev
I wonder if you could give us a quick "near term" summary of the things you plan on working on for the next 2 months or so? Not asking for any predictions of what will get done, just a plan like we used to get in the DevLogs of what you'd like to work on!

I'd like to work on adventure mode, mainly!  It is overdue.  This just involves converting menus one at a time, and finally getting to those travel pictures to start.

The Linux release is on a Steam beta and once that's clear of crashes and major problems, we should have that up everywhere, including here on Classic.  This opens the door to Mac work.  I imagine we're nearly to the phase where a new Mac computer enters the scene.

We also have a parallel track of interface widgets going on which should help not only with adv mode menus but in getting keyboard support up back in fort land.

We're also working on bugs in parallel.  Patches should continue while adventure mode progresses.  It's important for me to actually get through adventure mode, so I'm not going to prioritize fort mode balance or features until that's done.  But changes/fixes like the ones you see for the 50.10 patch notes (announcements, ammo, rotten food in rooms, stuck in trees, etc.) will continue to be addressed.

As an additional fourth parallel track ha ha, we have some graphics ready that I need to get typed in from my end, and that's ongoing.  I'm the bottleneck on this and most everything else, not much to do about that, and when life is rough or strange, as it has been, stuff is slow.

Quote from: uioped1
Is there a particular reason that you can only occupy already occupied locations?

FantasticDorf: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8499731#msg8499731

I think it has to do with the reclaim mechanic, and that sending off the squads to raid or occupy depends on there being civilians for tribute or to be the government etc.

But there's no core reason why you shouldn't be sending off settlers or caravans etc., other than it being some work to implement.

Quote from: kontako
I was inspecting the images on an artifact my dwarf had created and thought:

Will we see coherent multi-scene images across engravings or other depictions in the myth update, similar to how coherent, story like events will be used to construct a mythology?

I get that systems like this are planned to enter the game eventually. Really, I thought of asking the question as the myth system seemed like it could be multipurpose in that way, although admittedly, I understand very little about how any of these systems would work.
I imagine something like repeated use of particular icons, or after mentioning a list of various independent images a concluding statement that the scene depicts a particular site or event.

It's sort of related and sort of not, in its way.  The new myths attempt to be coherent, but the current history generation is already coherent, in its vast simulationish way, so we could have been doing multistep stuff already.  Were there chapters to in-game biographies...  I remember toying with this, picking a few chronological events related to a given subject, anyway.  Don't recall if that made it in.  But certainly more can be done.

Quote from: ryno
has the team considered the logistics for additional sprite overlays on artifact items, such that more of their materials / adornments are rendered

We had this for a time, for all of the furniture.  Had to scrap it with the big scrap, but it's certainly doable - many of the items are already built from layers and get pixel-wise recoloration etc.  Spikes and rings and such definitely within grasp.  It's a little harder to get them reflected on creature equipment.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5614 on: September 14, 2023, 08:20:31 pm »

Thanks for the replies, sir.  Iím sorry for your loss and I hope that you get over your illness.

I personally havenít played DF for months now.  The main reasons are that I only have a machine running Linux and Iíve never used Steam before so Iím concerned that, if I were to get the Steam version, Iíd have to download and install the Windows version on a machine running MS Windows and get that running before I could either switch to running it under Linux using Wine or switch over to the beta branch and use the native Linux version.  Also, I canít run the older pre-Steam versions because the Linux distribution that Iím on now  doesnít provide libraries for versions of SDL prior to SDL2 (and the maintainers have said that Hell will freeze over before that ever happensÖ).  Iíve tried installing Wine and running the Classic versions, but all that happens is that DF crashes on startup.  Iím really looking forward to there being native Linux support on the main branch.  Hopefully then I can start playing DF again!
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mikekchar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5615 on: September 14, 2023, 08:53:17 pm »

A_Curious_Cat, you can install steam on linux, then claim your steam key, set the version to the beta version, and download it.  It will work with no other changes.  A bit of a pain (and I admit that it took me a bit of time to figure out how to run Steam on my Arch machine), but it's really not so difficult.  Once you have the game downloaded from Steam, you can just go to that directory and play it directly without using Steam at all.

The Classic version requires that you install an additional DLL (msvcp140_atomic_wait.dll) if you have certain versions of Wine.  Someone told me that they got it to work without that DLL using wine 7.x, but I haven't tried it.  To be honest, while I got it running, it didn't work properly for me.  The latest premium windows one works fine, though.  It's a bit tricky to install that DLL, and the Linux beta version works *much* better anyway, so I recommend just expending the effort to get steam working on Linux (it's not that hard).
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elilla

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5616 on: September 15, 2023, 05:35:05 am »

Thanks for the replies, sir.  Iím sorry for your loss and I hope that you get over your illness.

I personally havenít played DF for months now.  The main reasons are that I only have a machine running Linux and Iíve never used Steam before so Iím concerned that, if I were to get the Steam version, Iíd have to download and install the Windows version on a machine running MS Windows and get that running before I could either switch to running it under Linux using Wine or switch over to the beta branch and use the native Linux version.  Also, I canít run the older pre-Steam versions because the Linux distribution that Iím on now  doesnít provide libraries for versions of SDL prior to SDL2 (and the maintainers have said that Hell will freeze over before that ever happensÖ).  Iíve tried installing Wine and running the Classic versions, but all that happens is that DF crashes on startup.  Iím really looking forward to there being native Linux support on the main branch.  Hopefully then I can start playing DF again!

Like mikekchar said, you can install Steam directly on Linux, switch to the beta channel, then rescue the DF folder from Steam's clutches.  For personal/ideological reasons I don't want to have a Steam account, so I'm waiting for the Linux version to be released on itch.io.

Meanwhile I was playing the Windows version from itch, with wine 8.x.  It generally works fine, but sadly every so often it crashesórarely enough that I get to run a fort for 3 or 4 years and then suddenly I lose a season's worth of work.  That happened with both wine 8.0 (current stable) and 8.15 (stage), so I gave it a rest for now.

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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5617 on: September 15, 2023, 06:55:17 am »

For personal/ideological reasons I don't want to have a Steam account, so I'm waiting for the Linux version to be released on itch.io.

As a person who hasnít used Steam before and therefore isnít really familiar with them, Iíve got to ask:  why, specifically, would I not want to use Steam?
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elilla

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5618 on: September 15, 2023, 07:30:45 am »

For personal/ideological reasons I don't want to have a Steam account, so I'm waiting for the Linux version to be released on itch.io.

As a person who hasnít used Steam before and therefore isnít really familiar with them, Iíve got to ask:  why, specifically, would I not want to use Steam?

You? I don't know. I have no idea what are your values and practices regarding choosing a service.  As I mentioned before my reasons are individual and political, and I cannot talk about it without derailing the thread into a rant, so I'll put it under a spoiler tag.  If you want to discuss the topic please DM me rather than expanding on the thread (though to be honest I don't want to discuss it either.)


Spoiler: rant (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 07:32:17 am by elilla »
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sofanthiel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5619 on: September 15, 2023, 12:39:21 pm »

why, specifically, would I not want to use Steam?

Developers get a larger cut of the money on Itch (90%) rather than Steam (70%), so it's better in terms of supporting Toady and the team!
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5620 on: September 15, 2023, 03:42:08 pm »

Early on, Kitfox said that that the two purchase methods were about equal, as Steam would get much more attention to the game, while itch.io would provide more income.

The game was a fantastic success on Steam, but it's not likely to be a top 5 game showing up on the front page until some future super update, so an itch.io purchase is probably objectively better at this point in time for everyone.

An itch.io purchase also includes a Steam key, providing access to the betas and the Steam Workshop
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Listyg

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5621 on: September 17, 2023, 04:12:18 am »

Any chance we will get to see other export options back in the steam game anytime soon? Like the option to export historical figures or terrain info. Currently we can only export main xml file but that's only like, only a part of everything. A lot of people are still waiting for full functionality as it was in the pre-steam version.
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mikekchar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5622 on: September 18, 2023, 03:54:06 am »

Steam thread derailment :-)  I actually admit that I tend towards sofanthiel's point of view regarding Steam.  It's a service that tries to coral every game into it's service platform rather than being a vendor of a game.  Basically their business plan is antithetical to my values.  To be fair, though, their influence on Linux gaming has been incredibly beneficial, even if I believe their interest is purely self serving.

The other thing to consider is that even with an itch.io purchase, it's likely that activating the Steam key results in Steam getting a small amount of money (likely in the $5 range if my information is correct).  So if you want to avoid giving money to Steam, then best to stay away from it.  On the other hand, Tarn has chosen Steam as his platform of choice for betas.  So... I feel like it's a matter of deciding if you want to participate in the betas or not, knowing that some small amount of money will go to Steam.  For me, I felt the best value was to participate (not that I've found *anything* on the beta.. It's been rock solid Ha ha ha)
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clinodev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5623 on: September 18, 2023, 01:32:05 pm »


The other thing to consider is that even with an itch.io purchase, it's likely that activating the Steam key results in Steam getting a small amount of money (likely in the $5 range if my information is correct).  So if you want to avoid giving money to Steam, then best to stay away from it.


Moral issues aside, developers don't pay for Steam keys, they're provided for free (as a means of maintaining customer lock-in).

They don't even ask questions until after you've requested 5000 keys, and it's perfectly fine for the developer to sell them.
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Kyo1995

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5624 on: September 20, 2023, 11:07:02 am »

Hello, Tarn! Glad to see you're doing well.

Will the army update include formation movements for militia/soldiers? Do you plan on generalizing such a feature to include more group behavior, e.g. families hanging out together, friends going in groups to the tavern etc?
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