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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2964240 times)

Silverwing235

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5775 on: January 28, 2024, 06:53:54 am »


I'm also curious if there's an official answer to this, what they are in the current version of the game. Otherwise it should be expunged upon when Myth & Magic drops for real. Are these giant animals monstrosities created by a force of chaos, only similar to normal animals as a mockery of their form? Are they normal animals warped by the magic surging in the lands? Or are they escapees from the platonic realm of beasts? Etc. etc... I imagine that will depend on their procedurally generated past in mythgen.

"Expunged upon" - surely not a typo/AC issue?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5776 on: January 28, 2024, 09:11:45 am »

*Expanded upon, lol. Some combination of typo and second-language brainfart.

DrudeFiegler

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5777 on: January 30, 2024, 11:06:00 am »

Post to follow
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5778 on: January 30, 2024, 08:00:46 pm »

Sorry to hear that 50.12 is delayed, but why do the links to the report and FoTF in the 1/30 devlog point to the ones from last month?
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5779 on: January 30, 2024, 09:08:46 pm »

Sorry to hear that 50.12 is delayed, but why do the links to the report and FoTF in the 1/30 devlog point to the ones from last month?

Probably because he didn't post about them the beginning of january
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5780 on: February 02, 2024, 02:55:47 am »

Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Does this mean that the portraits shown will change variations every time they're displayed (at least until they're linked to fashion-item terms)?

Telgin: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8522215#msg8522215

Yeah, Telgin's got this one.  It's possible to randomize in a consistent way on a per item basis.  This one's slightly complicated since the item can theoretically float between different creature types if it isn't stopped by size (from a human to a 70000 size experiment, for example), so it has to be able to survive that, but that's just a matter of making the text consistent in the different raw layer entries, and having any necessary art available.  (whether size 70000 experiments have portraits with full clothing variations by the first release is a different question ha ha, the art work can really go on forever, in a good way, like the rest of the game)

Quote from: Bumber
Quote from: me
Annie made us cool hoodies in the style of those pig hoodies I wear, with the pigs in a grid, but with the dwarf face in place of pigs.

Pics?

https://bay12games.com/imgs/krumkake.jpg

Quote from: Immortal-D
- Why is the number of custom labor groups limited and with numbers instead of icons?
- Are there plans to allow editing the default labor groups?
- Have you ever considered adding a world painter for precision embarks? (trying to spawn good & evil tiles adjacent is incredibly difficult)
- Do you know if Adventure Mode will be backwards compatible with existing worlds?
Quote from: me
Yeah, the Adv mode stuff isn't directly related (despite me working to have keyboard enabled there), but Putnam's already got some keyboard stuff working in Fort mode on some additional menus.  It's already in progress.
- Does this mean we can fully remap the sub-menus? Like right now adding a hotkey for building a door requires a custom graphic corresponding to said keys.

PatrikLundell: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8522780#msg8522780
Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8522859#msg8522859

- Just didn't have time to do the art before the December 2022 release with the rest that was going on, and I didn't use the custom icons we had at the time since there were only a few the last I worked on it.  The player custom icons between burrows, squads, work details, etc., could be more unified and useful.  I'm not sure when we'll get to it, but it could certainly use improvement.
- This can be done in 50.12 on beta, although the normal restrictions on held-object labors apply.
- The replies covered some of this - if we get back into the map painting in vanilla, it'll be as part of the Myth/Magic editors, where we want to also include things like site maps.  It's an open-ended topic like most of the rest of development - could spend all the rest of dev time on map editors ha ha, but we'll likely do some stuff that goes beyond the current arena and map field files.
- Yeah, Adventure Mode is compatible with existing worlds.  I think certain things like portraits for necromancer experiments, if we get to those at all for the initial release, will be too time-consuming to get in to old saves, and some of the myth/magic stuff will probably require new generated objects, which would need a new world as well.
- We haven't touched the building menu yet so far as I remember.  We're just adding stuff that people want, pretty much, with an eye on getting a full keyboard enabled experience back.  It's not going to happen quickly.

Quote from: Ziusudra
Is saving in adventurer mode gonna gain the same options as in fort mode? Such as to save and continue playing or save to a new timeline.

Do you think there's any current features that might not make the initial adventurer mode release? Like the camp building mentioned on Blind's steam.

Are the controls also going to be designed around WASD?

I'm using the same save options, yeah.

I mentioned the camp building a long while ago and also in the latest adv mode update post (which probably was after your question) since it is the largest interface that isn't as core as stuff like inventory.  It'll be in the second feature (i.e. not fix/tweak) update if it's not in the first.

There's diagonal movement so I'm not attempting WASD alone.  I'm not sure what the keyboard option is for people without numberpads - eating up the QWEASDZCX cluster (or equivalent) is really expensive in terms of lost keys that we want for non-movement options.  People can rebind of course, but I'd like a decent default option and am open to suggestions.  I'm currently just using numberpad and/or mouse.

Quote from: uristmctinkerer
Any chance we will have key shortcuts such as "q", "+" and "-" back to fortress mode in the premium version?

We're slowly getting stuff back.  50.12 (up on beta now) has new keyboard controls for the unit lists.

Quote from: Vanzetti
How hard would it be to make the motion graphics of DF more smooth, interpolating the movement of creature sprites between squares instead of jumping discreetly from one position to the next? Rimworld style, basically.

Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524213#msg8524213
voliol: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524343#msg8524343
uristmctinkerer: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524351#msg8524351

Yeah, I've assumed that even at the default FPS this would look torn and broken.  Our creatures move very fast in comparison to other games.

Quote from: TheBeardyMan
Before the premium version, we could change which font to use for the ASCII graphics by changing the font name in the FONT tag in init.txt. In addition to changing the images used for the ASCII graphics, this would also cause map cells to be rendered with the aspect ratio of the font.

In the premium version, changing the font in the FONT tag still changes the images used for ASCII graphics, but the aspect ratio for map cells remains the same as that of the default font.

Will this feature - the font aspect ratio driving the display aspect ratio - be making a comeback?

Ziusudra: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524678#msg8524678
mikekchar: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8524707#msg8524707
Putnam: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8525596#msg8525596

Don't have anything to add except that on top of the fix Putnam mentioned, there's a lot of marked spots in the code where there are assumptions about 8x12 and 32x32 playing together (like unit textures in unit lists) that would also need to be addressed specifically, and non-ugly solutions for some combinations are not obvious.  But it would be nice.

Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Regarding the recent Steam announcement:  will demigod players be able to select which deity is their divine parent, during character creation?  Also, assuming that “demigod” here is used to refer to the child of a deity and a non-deity, will they also be assigned a non-deity parent?

Also, what about elves?  Will they no longer be able to be demigods (or will it be possible for a “force” to be a demigod parent)?

Deity selection, yeah, that's the plan.  I'm not as concerned about the non-deity parents currently - regular adventurers don't get those either.  Deity selection could depend a lot on which options are most viable for an effective tutorial, if you're going for the tutorial aspect of it.  If that ends up being tight, the tutorial side of it might force a selection, but that's not the general idea.

I think whatever myth creation ends up being here and later will have a lot to say about elven etc. demigods.  In the most straightforward, fastest implementation, you'd always be a human or dwarf, yeah, but that situation is slowly going to get stranger and stranger.  We'll also have to tutorialize completely non-magical worlds as well, eventually, or warn the player that full tutorials aren't available on those settings.

Quote from: voliol
Getting a chunk of myth stuff is super exciting, however finalized it turns out it, it really is a sign we're entering a new era of feature development, beyond the different kind of goodieness that graphics and reworked UI has and will continue to be.

Tutorialization through deity sounds really fun, though I wonder:
1. In worlds without deities, or civilizations without, how will the demigod tutorial work? Will some other being take that tutor position? Or will it be impossible to play an atheist demigod?
2. Will demigods from goblins/dark fortress civs get guidance from the deified civ leader? Will megabeast-followers get it from their patron roc or dragon? What if this physical deity dies?

1. I mean, if there are no gods, there are no demigods, in a technical sense.  And yeah, we'll have to deal with it, but default worlds have them so it won't be a problem unless the player opts for it, at which point not having a full tutorial is not so bad.  But yeah, ultimately if we have to go with a standard abstract tutorial that plays the same role that's fine.  It just won't be as neat and will be missing some cool integration with other features (or be implemented in a flatter way.)  We'll see how this feels when I'm farther along this track.  Elves in forests being strictly left out of the tutorial zone is slightly weird.  The force could work, though the whole point of forces was not to give them personal identities, not at all, and even an abstract "you feel this, you feel that" still does that to some extent.

2. Ha ha, the rocs and dragons don't become deities in vanilla, they are just worshipped by frightened/awed people.  But of course the official introduction of myth/magic changes the possibilities up.  Gonna have to make decisions as I go - I wouldn't expect anything here until I get the basics up.

Quote from: Digganob
1. Will the graphics layering system be expanded or made more powerful? For instance, will more conditions for quality like in portraits, or will conditions for other layers existing/not existing be added to the regular, small-scale sprites?

2. Will a rework of the combat system, or at least the information displayed, be done at any point soon? A lot of things are somewhat confusing, like how "squareness" affects armor penetration and damage, what the chances of penetration and dismemberment are to begin with, how much skill affects things like dodging, parrying, chance to hit, etc. I think that clarity is more important than actual changes, especially considering the newer players.

1. It's like anything else now, slowly expanding.  The conditions we've added for portraits for instance work on all other layer types (like the small full body ones.)  A portrait is just a type of layered image.

2. It was always lurking behind the siege/army update to some extent, and the return of adventure mode brings it back.  I'm not sure what we'll have time to do for the initial release though.  There are a ton of high priority items for new players.  The mode is rough!

Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan
If a (very basic and incomplete) framework of the Myth & Magic system is coming with the Adventure update, does this mean the Big Wait might not be so big after all (at least, not counting the Big Wait we've already had waiting for the Big Wait)?

We're trying to kill the Big Wait dead at this point.  Or, yeah, as you say, the pre-graphics wait was the actual Big Wait and we've already done it ha ha.  Nice surprise if true!

Quote from: Rumrusher
So with the demi-god being converted into tutorial mode is there like an option to have the old demi-god settings? So that future runs aren't just stuck to the two lesser point pool options or risk dealing with the tutorial again?

the force tutorialization stuff kinda threw a monkey wrench in my common demi-god adv runs a bit
that said I wonder what this means for multiple adv party members if one of them is a demi-god? Does that lead to the Tori the goddess of Tutor popping in to explain a feature if a player tabs over to the demi-god?

PlumpHelmetMan: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526052#msg8526052
aSpatula66: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526275#msg8526275
Rumrusher (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526290#msg8526290
aSpatula66 (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526297#msg8526297

Character creation is one of the big menus/screens I have left to do, and this has been on my mind a bit yeah.  Up until now, the point pools enforced some sort of difficulty but didn't have any meaning in the world.  There are different interpretations for how point pools could work for different modes in the new peasant/hero/demigod setup, with the added layers of basic difficulty and roleplaying.  You should be able to play some kind of skilled warrior without having a divine parent or a heroic destiny for sure, with a variety of backgrounds in a way that makes sense.  The good versions of this are out of scope for the initial release (proper background generation/selection, playing historical figures, etc etc), and we'll likely just expand the concept/name away from "Peasant" and support varied point pool difficulty options at first.

I think the tutorial aspect of guidance will be tied to the party, mostly likely, just for simplicity.  But yeah, it's surely going to get weird as deity relationships build up in the party - I suppose this has always been true, even with regular relationships, since NPCs could hate different party members etc., and that probably led to intra-party stuff that simmered and broke in various ways ha ha.  Happy for it to get totally messed up as long as the tutorial aspects remain intact.

Quote from: Ten_Tacles
Will there ever be a rework of how alcohol is brewed, which is currently really simplistic and kinda boring for a game about alcohol addicted dwarves?
Perhaps procedurally generated, culturally unique recipes?

Is an overhaul planned for other older parts as well?

We've got our fort mode list and one of the big things we're going to do after the initial adventure mode release is figure out how to balance additions going forward, without getting sucked into the language of major arcs we have never finished.  Nice solid additions to fort mode are important, and we're hoping to slowly work through our giant backlog there while we're also expanding into the myth/magic/siege/villains/etc. stuff that we had previously planned in vanish-for-a-year+ arc terms.  That's just not viable now with a team of people, which I think will be good, really.  I've still got some ridiculous larks on lil version controlled branches so I haven't changed all that much ha ha, but they don't need to hold the nice solid bits up.

Quote from: Beag
1. Will peasant characters be able to join temple organizations to get bonuses when interacting with related deities? If so, what would the temple faction expect from the peasant character in return?
2. Will the spheres of a demigod character's divine parent matter in determining their special powers?
3. Since property rights are being overhauled does this mean we can no longer walk into a random warehouse and start stealing goods with no consequences?
4. Will hamlets get a new provider for food for adventurers since they don't have markets or inns? I assume the property rights update will stop us from stealing food from random people's houses with no consequences.
5. Previously characters could talk to their deity and get no response, with the myth and magic stuff coming will there now actually be some form of response to talking to a character's deity?

Silverwing235: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8526247#msg8526247

1. I expect it'll be the same as whatever we get to for everybody else, you'll just have to be proactive about retrieving relics or whatever we end up making easier for demigods (because the deity can short-circuit the being lost and confused part of it all.)  One of the reasons we're going with demigod tutorials to start is that we can't quickly fix the issues in the base game with quest flow and such - it's a larger multi-step project (along the lines of the adv mode villain stuff, which included better investigation.)  So I'd expect stuff here, but it might be hard to accomplish.
2. Depends on how much diversity we have - we have quite a bit available already, so it seems very possible.
3. This is the goal, but there's a lot to police.  We're going to take some steps.
4. Probably not at first!  There's a lot to do.
5. That's the basic idea ha ha.  We thought it would be funny if that option actually worked.

Quote from: Doren I
Hello Toady and thanks for this wonderful game.  I have been wondering if there was any word on a Mac release for the Steam version?

No additional word!  I'm stuck in adventure land with a deadline.  Still need a few computers.  Linux being done theoretically means the hardest part is over, hopefully.

Quote
Quote from: ryno
i have a question about the giant creatures of dorf fortress. Is it the case that they are very straight forwardly giant versions of real ones, or is it more like they are fantastical beings that are simply nicknamed after real ones due to their closest approximated similarities? Are the giant creatures considered to be genetically related to the normal ones? I understand that for their sprites they are simply scaled up versions of the base creature set, but I believe this is in order to save time above all else, and that it's possible that the canonical nature of giant creatures is not so 1:1, but can you clarify?
Quote from: voliol
I'm also curious if there's an official answer to this, what they are in the current version of the game. Otherwise it should be expanded upon when Myth & Magic drops for real. Are these giant animals monstrosities created by a force of chaos, only similar to normal animals as a mockery of their form? Are they normal animals warped by the magic surging in the lands? Or are they escapees from the platonic realm of beasts? Etc. etc... I imagine that will depend on their procedurally generated past in mythgen.

We don't have a theory for most things.  We'd rather generate canon on a per-world basis.  Of course we've had to make various decision for the default world, but here we didn't make any decisions at all except for the fact that there are "wild" regions with giant animals which are tied in some nebulous way to animal agitation and elves and forces and titans and big trees and sharp plants.  We'll have a complete set of giant creature sprites with the adventure mode release (they are almost done!), and we've been conceptually vague with their art as well (though no longer so pixelated!).  They are bigger, with the occasional emphasized feature.

Ideally, the magic release will give us all kinds of options, and they could have in-game repercussions.  Animal people are explicitly created in the prototype through whatever random incident, and giant creatures (and every other kind of creature) should also have some kind of explanation eventually, with procedural emphasis.

Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Sorry to hear that 50.12 is delayed, but why do the links to the report and FoTF in the 1/30 devlog point to the ones from last month?

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8527138#msg8527138

Yeah, I was just super late.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 01:23:08 am by Toady One »
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FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5781 on: February 02, 2024, 05:00:11 am »

Hello Toady.

Thank you very much as always for this FotF.  I just wanted to let you know that the links in the new message on the main page are wrong.  They lead to the previous month's posts.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 05:09:04 am by FrankVill »
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5782 on: February 02, 2024, 05:33:22 am »

@FrankVill no he is not wrong. He just forgot to link the previous (January) FotF & report, and did it on the 30th.
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edwahjr

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5784 on: February 02, 2024, 02:49:49 pm »

Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5785 on: February 02, 2024, 03:14:36 pm »

Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?

Welcome to the forums edwahjr!
In this thread we use lime green text to ask our questions to Toady. Like this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?[/color]=>
Will there be non-player demigod characters? Like, will they show up in legends as just the children of whatever god and influence the world?

FrankVill

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5786 on: February 02, 2024, 04:08:11 pm »

@FrankVill no he is not wrong. He just forgot to link the previous (January) FotF & report, and did it on the 30th.

Sorry, I did not notice that before. I made a mistake. Thanks.
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Ziusudra

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5787 on: February 02, 2024, 05:16:44 pm »

Quote from: Ziusudra
Are the controls also going to be designed around WASD?

There's diagonal movement so I'm not attempting WASD alone.  I'm not sure what the keyboard option is for people without numberpads - eating up the QWEASDZCX cluster (or equivalent) is really expensive in terms of lost keys that we want for non-movement options.  People can rebind of course, but I'd like a decent default option and am open to suggestions.  I'm currently just using numberpad and/or mouse.
I'd say it depends on: How much are the other controls changing and are any of the current ones are merging?

Like with the old roguelike scheme of a different button for each action givs us several different keys being used to interact with inventory that could be done in a single inventory screen, so d, p, w, and I at least could be in there, and maybe t  (but that's more time to design and code and some of those options can also act on things outside the inventory, like eat or remove).

Meanwhile, a bunch of other options could be moved to the current x action menu, like opening the building menu (when it makes it in), interacting, starting climbs, the various info displays, the various preferences keys like for speed, sneak, movement, combat, etc. D, O, P, and W are all used pretty rarely and could really just be one function or a sub-menu in actions.

I currently play .47 adventurer mode on a 60% keyboard with out any keypad function keys, with custom bindings based around ESDF with WRXV for diagonals that works quite well. (WASD but one key to the right so I can hav both hands in the proper home position.) So either way I'll probably be rebinding anyway.
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Button

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5788 on: February 02, 2024, 09:59:00 pm »

Ah shoot, just missed him.

Hey Toady! I assume by the time you read this the bug tracker will be fixed; but in future, who should we contact/how should we let somebody know when the bug tracker is broken?

It's out of temp space & preventing any new bug reports
« Last Edit: February 03, 2024, 01:17:24 pm by Button »
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5789 on: February 02, 2024, 11:56:23 pm »

Ah shoot, just missed him.

Hey Toady! I assume by the time you read this the bug tracker will be fixed; but in future, who should we contact/how should we let somebody know when the bug tracker is broken?

It's out of temp space

Might want to mention that it’s only affecting logged-in users.
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