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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 3027507 times)

Vislar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5940 on: June 28, 2024, 04:12:53 pm »

Now that Steam version has implemented adventurer mode in playable form, can the legends mode players start toying with the hope to see export map/gen info and graphical map files function again?
It would be enormous help for players that focus on legends mode world exploration.


Lack of this function is still keeping me in 0.47.05 and I sometimes feel a little left behind.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 05:36:22 pm by Vislar »
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aSpatula66

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5941 on: June 28, 2024, 05:26:03 pm »

Now that Adventurer mode has made it to the finish line, can the legends mode players start toying with the hope to see export map/gen info and graphical map files function again?
It would be enormous help for players that focus on legends mode world exploration.


Lack of this function is still keeping me in 0.47.05 and I sometimes feel a little left behind.


What do you mean adventure mode has made it to the finish line? Not even a quarter of the missing features have been reimplemented yet. Granted many of them are exclusively graphical in nature and toady doesn't really have as much control over that.
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Vislar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5942 on: June 28, 2024, 05:37:34 pm »

Yup, fixed my bad phrasing.
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xzaxza

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5943 on: July 01, 2024, 07:08:29 am »

Will there be a way to control the number of SUBTERRANEAN_ANIMAL_PEOPLES any time soon? I just tried creating a new world, and I have four of each of the default civilizations for a total of 20 overworld civilizations... and a whopping 755 subterranean animal people civilizations.

Looking at their spread by race I guess cavern settings might affect it, but dunno if it's possible to indirectly control it via them.

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aSpatula66

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5944 on: July 01, 2024, 07:16:44 am »

It generates one layer linked civilization per underground region
That would mean each world has as many subterranean civilizations as it does forgotten beasts
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5945 on: July 02, 2024, 02:10:31 am »

Quote from: dikbutdagrate
Tarn, I correspond with you more than most of my relatives, what's an example of a style of M&M (magical) item effect prohibited by each of the following classifications of effect start-up time?
    a.) Magical item effects which are constant.

    b.) Magical item effects which trigger off a conditional.

    c.) Magical item effects which can be engaged by a creature in game through its behavioral AI once in its inventory, acting as a form of equippable interactions

You already came up with the spider generating object for an item that gets into bad memory territory, and other examples in your original post.  But I'm not really sure how to answer this question, since there are a ton of obviously bad/illegal/should-be-illegal magical effects.  Everything needs ranges and controls.  The stuff you brought up with material state changes are important, and generally hitting the map lots frequently over tiles is gonna slow things right down.  Too much LOS over 3D space would also be bad, similarly.  We'll just have to be mindful, though a lot will slip through I'm sure.  Conditionals are tricky for anything that wobbles, if the effect toggles.  That happens with temperature sometimes, but also weight, and happiness levels, and all that, so we'll have to be careful, in the same way we had to evolve mental stress, pretty much.  Some magic conditionals will probably need to be smoothed out.  AI we'll have to restrict to things we can actually do ha ha, and they have to not think very much, though we can probably amp up some cases as we go that are fun.

Quote from: eerr
It might not be officially stated, but the usual state of the game is thus:
The balance of most gameplay gets changed from hard to easy for a dev cycle, then easy to hard for a dev cycle. Then the process repeats.
I don't mind the contrast, but do you balance this way intentionally?


What is the land speed of a flying ballista bolt?

I don't think it's intentional if that's how it's working out (I have no idea.)  Maybe it's just an indication that I overcorrect?  Or a number of surrounding issues like that.  There are a lot of forces at play so it's not surprising it wobbles around.

looks like a ballista arrow moves in 3 step increments, so about three times as fast as a dwarf walks, but slower than many things run.  but that was set before running existed.

Quote from: Eric Blank
What Is it specifically that allows you to play as an adventurer from any civ?

I ask not because I don't know about the raw file tags that control it, i do, but because of a bug(?) that appeared in the Museum III game a couple years ago; dwarves disappeared from the menu of races you can start an adventurer as, and had to be modified so they are outsider controllable, and a demon called "charcoal brutes" became playable from the same menu. This was weird at the time and still is, because there was still a healthy number of dwarves in the world, including two (now four, resurrected by dfhack) civs.

I'm starting to suspect the dwarven non-historical population got wiped out, and that's the cause of it. And i suspect that all of the dwarves alive in the save today (400 years after world gen ended) are members of player forts, caravan guards and merchants or adventurers, who are all historical figures, and that, for whatever reason, the game is not counting historical figures among the population that counts towards whether a race is playable. Humans, elves and goblins all have non-historical populations, you can meet them and make them historical figures in adventure mode. Hands of Planesgifts, a necromancer experiment species, also have a healthy non-historical population. Black bear men apparently also do, although I don't recall seeing it in the sites and pops file. And charcoal brutes... no idea how that happened. Maybe from the goblin civ that took over a civ that dug too deep.

But, I've been running an experiment to attempt to add new species to the list: I've been recruiting and breeding animal people from the wilds, and have a population of wolf people and wolverine people that both have had children born into the dwarven civ as naturalized citizens. I also have coyote and kea people that I expect to breed next turn. None of that has resulted in them being added to the list on the front page of the adventurer race selection screen (they're still playable as "intelligent wilderness people" though.)

Which is why I strongly suspect, that the races on the front page are dictated by non-historical civ populations, because all my creatures are fort members and thus historical figures.

But I have no way to confirm that that's how it actually works, hence asking here.

Also, did you intend to re-add the sites and pops file export to the legends mode menu along with the xml export?

There's a lot of looking through site lists for populations and so forth, as I recall.  It wants to find a site for you to start in, and that's a little more restricted in the beta since some non-town sites are pretty confusing to start in.  So I think your theory is correct.

Yeah, we'd like to get everything back into legends mode.

Quote from: MisterR
Do we know how the procedural Magic is going to work?
In the development page of Dwarf Fortress it states "New wizards beyond necromancers: by race, by skill, by object, by corruption, by deal with another power".
The "by skill" is what intriges me. It implies some sort of magic sistem that can be logically understood and exploited.
Would a whole magic sistem be generated at world gen or would it be abstracted so that it only generated spells that are unlocked by leveling some sort of magic skill?
We have spheres in DF, would the magic sistem pull from that?

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8543708#msg8543708
MisterR (op): http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8543715#msg8543715
Inarius: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8543724#msg8543724

It's not 100% clear yet.  I've made a lot of replies around it, and a DF Talk episode or two.  There's a lot out there, but at the same time, the details aren't going to be settled until it happens.  But yeah, I want to generate full systems, linked in to the creation myth stuff and then outward into every element of play.  That includes the skill system.  Procedural skills are not only on the table but guaranteed reasonably early on (whatever that means, but I'll need them), hopefully in a way that coheres with the rest of the generated (and raw) information, rather than just slapped together (though it'll surely have some feel of that as we start.)

Regarding the side discussion about "by object", I don't recall precisely what I had in mind when I wrote that remark.  I don't think it was about learning from slabs (though maybe that counts), but more like an object that grants power while it is held or worn.  But as you know everything's on the vast vast table and we'll see where we go.

Quote from: OdenCriteria
Recently, Ive been engaged in a bit of conquest, so I thought Id ask some military-related questions:

1. Will we be able to draw troops/squads from the populations of our outer holdings? Maybe to reinforce/assist your fortress troops when they are attacking another site?

2. Will armies in the field be able to construct camps/forts/castles?

3. Will we be able to station squads in holdings/other sites, and transfer them around?

4. Will mercenary orders be hireable? Will they be able to form/be founded in your fortress?

5. Will nobles be able to hold administrative positions in the future? My original militia commander ultimately became the duchess of my fortress, and I wanted her heir to inherit both positions. However, I found that even if I appointed the heir to militia commander before the succession, upon becoming duchess she was immediately kicked from all previously held positions. This is obviously an infringement upon her noble privileges and I wont stand for it.

1. Yeah, this is one of the main parts of the former army arc (which is now just army stuff to do.)

2. They already make camps in adventure mode which are absolute junk.  So it should be improved, yeah, and more should be possible.  Additional fortifications won't be a focus at first if they don't come up much in play though.

3. Yeah, I'd expect that with #1.

4. They are in w.g., so it should happen at some point, though it's more purely economy inflected than the other stuff and so harder to do the way things currently are.  "Fortress subgroups" as an aspiration includes everything already happening in w.g.

5. Yeah there are all sorts of weird bugs and conflicts that need to be worked out.  The more people are commanding and holding things as the army stuff comes in, the more this'll get shaken out.

Quote from: Inarius
So i've seen from the Steam report you are moving to a new country ? I hope this is for the best ! Not really a question, just a "good trip and good installation" message

Yeah, it's all good!  I'm getting married ha ha.

Quote
Quote from: ryno
1) there seems to be an odd dissonance between the type of creature that some cavern dwellers are versus the rest of the animal people, for example there are rat men and simultaneously "rodent men" in the caves that are not supposed to be rat men per se. And there are "amphibian men", "serpent men", or "reptile men" again its this nonspecific thing amongst dozens of specific equivalents. but then theres bat men instead of "flying mammal man" and ant men instead of "insect man" haha, so im curious, why are cavern dwellers like this?

2) also, rodent people portraits are drawn with fake clothing instead of real clothing like on dwarves, does this imply anything negative about the prospect of them getting to have equipment graphics? and on that note, what is to be made about the fake clothing on animal peoples unit sprites in general, considering their portraits are drawn naked?

3) on the topic of graphical parity in general i would also like to ask: biomes are far more visually distinct on the world map than on the actual playing field, has the team ever considered the logistics of a minecraft-esque localized grass-color or something like that? im also interested still in what the state of palletized stone/soil floors is!
Quote from: aSpatula66
I think adding separate graphics for dry grass, dead grass, and bamboo as there is in ascii could definitely help improve graphical distinction between biomes.

Also on the topic of graphical parity and cavern dwellers, serpent men have white scales yet their sprites depict them with green scales.

Also why are rodent, serpent, reptile, and amphibian men described as evil in their descriptions? They don't even have the [EVIL] tag.

Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8544523#msg8544523
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8544779#msg8544779
A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8544784#msg8544784
Eric Blank: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8544799#msg8544799

The original non-specific animal people are all supposed to be evil (missing the tag), ever since we added the outside ones, since we wanted a variety of creepy stuff underground in the normal way and our normal newer animal people are all tied to specific species/genera/narrower real world groups rather than being "bad humanoid."

The bat and ant and cave swallow people are special though, since they have subterranean vibes in real life.  They aren't evil.

Nope, the fake clothing on rodent people doesn't mean it's unlikely they'll get equipment graphics.  Jacob has already done a redraw on all the standard animal people, in preparation for equipment graphics.

We have lots of specific grasses, and a few specific grass pictures, but we should definitely do more with it.  Palettized stone floors are on hold since they would be gaudy splotches and so we'd have to make it optional (default off) and so it goes to the back of the queue.  Feels like the voxel games can get away with more here.  We have pebble graphics now that I still need to put in.

Quote from: Beag
1. Since crafting and butchering is soon returning will crafting remain how it was in the old version where adventurers could only make bone jewelry and trinkets etc.? It would be nice and fairly realistic to be able to whittle branches into wooden figurines and make low quality arrows and crossbow bolts from them.
2. Will being a demigod/being a member of a religious origination/just currying favor with a deity unlock magic powers our adventurer's can use similar to sentient undead magic powers? Overuse of them could get the adventurer cursed to balance things.
3. Will preaching about a deity increase an adventurer's favor with them?
4. Will religions ever get doctrines such as values favored by that religion(as opposed to culture favored values)?
5. Will we eventually be able to sleep in castles/fort/monasteries that aren't hostile to us? Would allow better RP or a soldier/priest character.
6. Structurally how different are religious organizations to the type of factions joinable by the player? Would it be a challenge to be able to ask to join them like we can with other factions? Notably currently we can start of as part of these religious factions already when selecting our religion.
7. Will we eventually be able to see the weather again? Knowing the phase of the moon is very useful for guestimating when were beast time is without looking at the wiki.
8. Something that would be nice for bard characters is to mark which instrument skills are used by music in a culture when selecting skills so you don't create a string instrument bard for a culture that has no string instruments. Could this be a minor improvement that could be added in the future?

1. Yeah, it was not expanded.  I'm just trying to get this done.  Expand later.
2. The nethack/roguelike/etc. style way of doing things with divine relationships is a bit gamey but probably not far off where we'll have to start with deity relationship tracking.
3. I suppose this depends.  I'm not sure what'll happen at first.  Not all of them should care.  Some should hate the public attention.
4. The variables are there, but I don't remember if I use them anywhere at all.  Some of the military groups use them but I don't know that the religions do yet.
5. It would be reasonable.
6. They are the same internally, it just hasn't come up.  I think you can start as a generic member of one.
7. Yeah, it's just not done.  On the list of stuff I haven't gotten to.
8. That would be reasonable.

Quote from: aSpatula66
Do divorces happen in fortress mode? I've never seen it happen.

Will visuals for rain be added to graphics mode at some point?

When is glass going to become raw-defined?

Why can't [NO_DEFAULT_JOB] be used for items other than tools?

Why is [STERILE] not usable as a creature token?

Why do animated corpses heal? Maybe there could be a syndrome-applied creature token that prevents healing?

Why are sponges capable of feeling emotions?

Why is hair [HARD]? As far as I know all this does is allow various tools such as jugs and large pots made from hair to be purchased when creating an adventurer and possibly also when embarking.

Similar question but for wood and [ITEMS_WEAPON]. As far as I can tell all this does is cause wooden kitchen knives to available when creating an adventurer.

Why are dwarves liked for their beards? Only half of them are bearded and the ones that are aren't any more bearded than other species that can grow beards.

Are more internal organs going to get actual functions in the future?

Why doesn't the material of a shield affect it's blockchance? Same thing with picks and mining speed.

Why is dragonfire hotter than the surface of the sun? Wouldn't that mean that everyone (and all the terrain) in a large radius should be vaporized instantly when a dragon breathes fire?

Why don't elven civilizations have [OUTDOOR_GARDENS]? They would probably be fine with picking leaves and fruits from plants.

Why aren't any creatures other than than dwarves affected by cave adaptation? It would probably make sense for goblins and kobolds to have it, as well as all cavern creatures that aren't immune to nausea.

Why are maneras the only creatures exclusive to layer two of the caverns?

Is it a bug that goblin civilians don't attack neutrals? Someone on discord said that it was. I don't think it would really make sense for them to attack neutrals though given they are unarmed and unskilled, though they should at probably acknowledge if someone is an intruder.

I think they are technically permitted but it's based only on personality conflicts right now, which is the opposite of why they currently get married, so I don't think it can happen (unless they constantly read the wrong library book?  I don't remember if that stuff is implemented fully outside w.g.)

yeah, graphics should make it back for rain when we figure it out

dunno about glass, it's mostly a save compat issue now, and some workshop ui annoyances, but mostly save compat, since it's not an "inorganic" and would become one, which would need to be found everywhere it matters in saves

tools have lots of extra flags, probably just got stuck to them as they expanded to fill all their different roles

STERILE was added, like NO_AGING, as a property for interactions, as a modifier.  creatures use MATES_TO_BREED and sexes or something like that to indicate they can do that.  every other creature is sterile, even if that have a sex set

just didn't put the not healing thing in

I don't know about a sponge's inner life.  they don't have nerves, but if they have souls or something it's a fantasy game

a hair is hard.  I recently got a sliver from shaving stuck in my palm somehow.  but if you make a hair shape out of the hair material it gets more wobbly.  but it is goofy to have the tag there, yeah.

I don't know if something bad happens with elves if wood doesn't have it?  it could be related to that, in some version

must be the double braids

organs, if it makes sense in some consequential way, sure

shields are completely archaic game-wise, but block chance generally is supposed to do with shape and nothing more, though it should be modified variously.  picks are even more archaic.

maybe it's just a very little dragon fire that comes out, enough to do what it does.  I just wanted something substantially different from fire and magma, but it's really very hot, probably too hot.  maybe when we have more magic it can be more magically hot and less normally hot (but still very hot)

"probably be fine"...  I dunno, they are pretty odd.  I'm not sure what goes into forming furniture on the furniture tree vs. picking leaves off a living tree that you just find (which feels very cruel).  fruit seem fair.

the cave adaptation mechanic also lets you become used to the sun, which cavern animals shouldn't have.  dwarves are in between and special in their own weird way.

no special reason for manera placement

yeah, goblin civs are supposed to attack neutrals.  there are no neutrals to them.  there are identified people that belong to the civ, and intruders.  this is demon civ vibes, and some goblins carry it into their bandit groups.  but it's supposed to have more to do with how the demon wants things run than how the goblins organize their society.  but none of this can come through in entity definitions yet.

Quote from: ryno
on the topic of color i would like to attach a few color-related questions to this post

1) birch trees are known to be white and are described ingame as having silver bark, but the trees and all of their byproducts are in fact a dark brown color- what explains this, is it intended, and should we expect it to change?

2) redroot dye turns palletized clothing items into a brown color that is identical to leather IIRC, is this by design, can we expect a red dye, and with the game now being visualized does this as well open the door to a wider spectrum of new dyes?

3) loam is grayscale in the premium version and looks like an error, when i first started playing the game it was disorienting and resembled stone, the raws indicate it is "silver", why is this the case instead of some kind of earth tone? similarly, peat walls are a vibrant red color, but shouldnt it be some kind of high-carbon dark-brown?

4) cobaltite was once prized for its blue color, but changed to black in the premium version, was this a conscious decision that was perhaps based on realism, or might we expect the blue stone to return?

aSpatula66: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8545151#msg8545151

1) we have some specific trees drawn and not yet entered, and more trees to do.  it's work to do.

2) it's supposed to be red.  we want more dyes, yeah.

3) I have no idea where I got the colors from.

4) I gave the artists freedom to draw stuff, and I assume they went with references which are all the realistic colors.  I think it's natural to tend that way, and if we want blue stone, we'll need a blue stone that's blue.

Quote from: Crystalizedmire
Will non-necromancer wizards make experiments as well?
Do Demigod/chosen ones adventurers have to believe in their god or not?
If so, is the god chosen from the beliefs list in the character creation screen?(I'm asking this question because animal people and experiments can't choose any belief)

A_Curious_Cat: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8545158#msg8545158
DPh Kraken: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8545162#msg8545162

Demons with the right spheres already do experiments without being necromancers, so I imagine it'll be possible.

Ha ha, as in the discussion, given what we have in mind, it would be a matter of what "object of worship" means I guess.  But unless we're hardcoding delusions in some way, they'd be obviously just sitting there.

Yeah, it's still an issue that not everybody has a choice here.  I expect it's all gonna get blown up a little bit.

Quote from: Vislar
Now that Steam version has implemented adventurer mode in playable form, can the legends mode players start toying with the hope to see export map/gen info and graphical map files function again?
It would be enormous help for players that focus on legends mode world exploration.

Lack of this function is still keeping me in 0.47.05 and I sometimes feel a little left behind.

I'm still focused on adventure mode until it gets out of beta.  Adventure mode was entirely left behind, more than legends mode, for more than a year, but hopefully now I can get it out of beta and then go back and recover everything else that hasn't yet been updated.

Quote from: xzaxza
Will there be a way to control the number of SUBTERRANEAN_ANIMAL_PEOPLES any time soon? I just tried creating a new world, and I have four of each of the default civilizations for a total of 20 overworld civilizations... and a whopping 755 subterranean animal people civilizations.

Looking at their spread by race I guess cavern settings might affect it, but dunno if it's possible to indirectly control it via them.

aSpatula66: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8545367#msg8545367

Yeah, like aSpatula66 said, it's just a layer link thing, to make them occur in the absence of the game understanding moving underground well.  When we have better underground movement the numbers of civs can be greatly reduced.  It just uses it to see who is in your cavern layer.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5946 on: July 02, 2024, 02:35:50 am »

Thanks for the answers, Toady.  And congratulations on your upcoming marriage!
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xzaxza

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5947 on: July 02, 2024, 04:40:52 am »

Thanks!

And...

Quote from: ryno
on the topic of color i would like to attach a few color-related questions to this post

1) birch trees are known to be white and are described ingame as having silver bark, but the trees and all of their byproducts are in fact a dark brown color- what explains this, is it intended, and should we expect it to change?

Aren't birch trees are white only on the outside, ie., the bark? And the logs and the materials created from them would be light brown.

And...

The original non-specific animal people are all supposed to be evil (missing the tag), ever since we added the outside ones, since we wanted a variety of creepy stuff underground in the normal way and our normal newer animal people are all tied to specific species/genera/narrower real world groups rather than being "bad humanoid."

The bat and ant and cave swallow people are special though, since they have subterranean vibes in real life.  They aren't evil.

So it'd make sense to make two entities for the underground peoples, one for evil ones and one for others. I guess they still follow values and ethics, so those shouldn't probably be same for evil and non-evil entities.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 04:48:27 am by xzaxza »
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Criperum

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5948 on: July 07, 2024, 07:55:07 am »

May be it's a little bit late but I'm curious. Was it an option to release classic version of the game for free on Steam and graphics+sound of premium version as paid DLC?
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DPh Kraken

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5949 on: July 07, 2024, 11:24:21 am »

Adventurers that lead their own group can demand leaders pay homage to them. Is this a prelude to civilizations being able to generate with feudal relations?
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Urist McAllester

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5950 on: July 07, 2024, 05:37:35 pm »

Quote from: Inarius
So i've seen from the Steam report you are moving to a new country ? I hope this is for the best ! Not really a question, just a "good trip and good installation" message

Yeah, it's all good!  I'm getting married ha ha.

!!!!!! Congratulations!
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Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5951 on: July 07, 2024, 06:40:23 pm »

Congrats on the marriage!
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Moradin

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5952 on: July 08, 2024, 06:38:35 am »

Congrats (or condolences) on the marriage!
If the very DF dev managed to get married, maybe there's still hope to be had for the undersigned after all :D
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voliol

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5953 on: July 08, 2024, 01:56:57 pm »

Congrats on the uncoming marriage Tarm! And thank you for this month's round of questions.

@Moradin I don't think Tarn is getting married off, there's no need for condolences.

Rumrusher

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5954 on: July 16, 2024, 12:33:10 pm »

Do Demigod/chosen ones adventurers have to believe in their god or not?
From Rumrusher's experiments with "ensouling" a god into a unit body, any sort of relation-building with a god becomes classified as "worship", rather than "friendship." A godly tavern keeper would gather many followers. So the more you beseech your god for guidance, the stronger the devotion would be even if you start at dubious.
As a fun bit of trivia, gods are hardcoded to use the '' tile, shared with angels. I wager that we might be seeing this a bit often as their Classic portrait...
so the funnier bit is gods were always using that symbol and was a hold over when folks were masquerading as them. so that symbol is the mark of the divine.
though there is one thing I remember in my time messing with gods and it's that they contain and know a whole lot more secrets than they dish out... but none of those secret knowledge gets tossed onto their vessel when slotted in as powers.
so it might be an force an divine being to write what they know into quires and scrolls scenario?
though the day different goals and dreams get added as acceptable for seeking out secrets is probably the day you end up with 'well this world got interesting fast because someone wanted to become a family and decided to seek out the god of life and birth.'
Logged
I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes
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