- Will there be an option to turn the tutorials off completely? It's a bit annoying that you see the pop-up appear every single time you enter the embark mode, I've accidentally went into the tutorial mode a few times by misclicking.
- Will future updates in addition to new systems also quietly add new "stuff"? As in, not mechanics, but more creatures, minerals, materials etc.
- What is the currently the graphical stuff that is yet to be added and will likely take the most amount of work? Is it ocean waves by any chance?
FantasticDorf:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8562867#msg8562867DPh Kraken:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8563036#msg8563036- Yeah that's reasonable. I've been thinking about it a bit after all the testing ha ha, but haven't changed anything.
- We've had procedural definitions come in as needed, but for raw stuff, it doesn't happen very often! But when I get to dyes, painting, that kind of thing, feel like any alchemy-like bits don't have some things they need, etc., it'll happen. Creatures are odd because I feel like I really need to flesh the current ones out more before adding them, but that's also a whole thing.
- Animal people equipment is a big one, we've got the weapons drawn up and some of the clothing as I recall, and there are also the portraits. This'll involve offsets and other new abilities for layering imags. Legends Mode or image export, just getting the maps and graphics to place nice. Ocean waves are still missing yeah. We also want to do more with procedural creature graphics.
Q1: Healing Magic. Will healing magic need substantial rules constraining use in fighting, for the usage to be plausible with what people would do if that magic was available in real life?
It seems magic healing would normally promote the use of "high alpha" weapons - ones that are one-hit-kill or do a debilitating amount of damage. People would sacrifice other aspects of warfare for a chance to take out enemies. They'd use overwhelming force whenever possible. They'd target healers as a priority. They'd focus on anything that prevented healers from applying healing, including disruptive magics and substances if they existed. On the flip-side, people would prioritise protection for healers, and focus on fetch squads to bring the injured to protected healing areas. The rich and the powerful would have an army of healers monopolising rarer healing resources.
As a real world example, in warfare, sometimes armies use horrible debilitating but non-lethal weapons to try to overload medics, to slow down advances, and stop medics from being free to patch up minor injuries to get warriors back up.
Fantasy stories tend to just focus on the protagonist's party or side using healing, and handwave that the societies' focus on healing and disrupting healing is balanced everywhere. DF has the problem that the opponents side and technology could be anything - even Dwarves, and the player could be in a lot of the possible situations. Plausibility aside, players will take advantage of tatics abusing healing, even if the AI won't.
DF's procedural myth and magic setup is to be different every time, so people can enjoy learning the rules and myth behind magic, similar to the discovery when getting into a new fantasy game franchise for every world...
With this, I can see a situation where people want the same rough procedural setup of myth and magic for multiple different worlds - even if the specifics are different for every world.
For example they might find a setup where powerful people killed the original gods and took their power to become something like gods themselves, and then tried to rewrite history pretending they were the original gods to throw off would be usurpers. Maybe those gods were keeping something at bay and now it's running unchecked. Maybe the gods experimented and opened a doorway into another plane and let in demonic hordes. Maybe a cataclysmic event opened a rift between two worlds in different dimensions with their own sets of gods, and now there's a war - and possibly 2 competing magic systems. Maybe a cataclysmic event let in another type of magic, force of nature, runic or ley line system. Maybe they liked a particular setup of a pantheon and forces.
Big supernatural events don't all happen before year 0. Events like rifts or worlds colliding might be scheduled to happen after X years regardless of what gods and sapients did - so players might want the same event to be scheduled in a different world after some years.
(For those that don't know, IIRC Toady has mentioned the ability to have multiple worlds, different planes, and map changing cataclysms as part of the 3-4 year map restructure, myth, and magic arc. So distinctive setups like mentioned above are on the cards AIUI.)
The exact proc gen capabilities aren't important - what I'm trying to get at is, in a procedural system, there will inevitably be some flavours of myth and magic people really like to recreate. They'll want to keep the rough myth and magic setup, but let the specifics change to keep it interesting - and let the other parts of world generation be different as normal.
At the other end of the scale, ending up with a completely different myth and magic setup because a player didn't like the shape of the landmasses and re-rolled the RNG makes it hard to get desired generations.
Q2: Is it possible to design, from the start, to separate parts of the myth and magic procedural setup from other elements of world generation? Such that people can use a similar flavour of myth and magic setup on different worlds. Maybe have a combination of parameters outlining the general shape of myth and magic setup, and compartmentalise parts of the myth and magic procedural generation using different PRNG seeds players can copy/paste... Or is everything likely to be causally linked, and un-entagleable?. I'm asking now as it may be hard to change in 4+ years..
Players may like to share interesting myth and magic setups - they may want to view some of the hidden spoilery myth and magic output, and re-roll until they get a acceptable result. Sort of like a "re-generate" button during map generation to get different landmass shapes and types with the same advanced world gen parameters - which also would be a nice feature.
DPh Kraken:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8563036#msg8563036Q1: Magic is supposed to be able to be disruptive, in the spheres where it operates. Yeah, it will take more work for that to seem interesting or proper (free teleportation being even more disruptive than healing, I think), but we'd like to see where we end up if we allow more extremes. We can constrain them for as long as they really make the game suck, when that happens.
Q2: The design as we've articulated it so far ends up doing this, yeah. Starting at the sliders/editors/raws/constraints, then into the creation myth, and into proper world gen, there are different stages where you have a lot of control over similarity and future outcomes (as we can see with the current necromancers or raw files, for instance.) Once it gets deep into proper historical world gen, it does get harder to control, but a lot of the flavor will be determined by that time. Through the slider/editor/raw/constraint etc. setup, there should be lighter weight cosmologies which can be shared, though we're not entirely sure how that's going to be structured and it's likely to go through some iterations.
If I remember it correctly, Tarn said adventure mode will be a life sim at one point because of the updates and features that will come later. Not willingly or deliberatly but It will, eventually.
1-Is this still the way adventure mode will evolve on?
2-If yes, in what update (previously, arc) will we feel like it is a life sim now? myth&magic? economy? entity rewrite? etc.
Now about myth&magic:
3-We know there will be procedural races in the worlds. But will we be able control how many of them will be created? Is it gonna be like a slider or like current advanced settings where you can write the exact number or no way to control how many and they are random with invisible limits on their max and min numbers?
4-Will ''useless'' magics be in the game? For example: a magic that change your outfit's color or create a toy sword etc. I feel like these kind of things could make the world more believable and fun since not everything should be serious or combat oriented.
DPh Kraken:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8564091#msg85640911/2- Elements in that vein, as DPh Kraken linked, are still in the plans yeah. I don't have a prediction for when the feeling will change. Previously elements of the economy and entity rewrite arcs would have opened the door to the dev updates DPh Kraken linked, but I've got, e.g., the cabin stuff to re-add sooner than that, and that already evokes that stuff.
3- Yeah, it's important to us to have settings where it's even less procedural than it is now, and settings (eventually) where it doesn't even use the raw files as they currently stand, even if the latter is obviously gonna be a bit (extremely) mushy. It isn't setup yet, but I imagine sliders will be affecting underlying specific numbers to which you also have access, much like the current sliders vs advanced params for world gen.
4- I think both of your examples sound useful!
1. The public adventure mode roadmap has been fulfilled. Any short-term goals you're looking to hit before the release?
2. Mythical substances have odd names, befitting potions in a roguelike. Are there any requisite mechanics you'd want to implement before swallowing "weird pulp" has a chance to turn you into, well, weird pulp?
3. Out of semantic curiosity - Are you the "Toady One", one who is toady; or is the one ordinal?
Adventure destinies are excellent - they're able to smooth over a lot of the common woes on high while preserving the more open-ended and simulation-based gameplay on low.
4. What happens when the bandage comes off? Is there less incentive to say, overhaul recruitment for Ordinary folks since it works without a hitch on higher destinies?
5. As the myth situation progresses, will we see Chosen being expanded beyond tutorialization and into the realm of godly interactions and a pathway to wielding magic?
6. Why don't Ordinary adventurers get the site compass? I recall all adventurers had it in previous versions.
1. I've added quite a bit the last several days, and will continue to do so yeah. Mostly it just has to do with being able to learn the game and getting through the first chosen quest, since we're expecting some new people. After the release we can start worrying about the big picture again.
2. Yeah, I don't want it to feel miserable and unfair, especially when you have a broad set of ways you could theoretical test and observe things, if only there were a few new commands. It'd also be cool if the knowledge were preserve-able in entities/books for future players etc. There's the whole notion of the game becoming aware that it's in a magical universe, which it doesn't really do very well right now.
3. Zach might have a different opinion about this, and we never really spoke through it, when "Toady One the Great Productions" was put in the cement on a pond growing up and in our early BASIC games on the title screens, when it wasn't attached to me as a person at all. I've always thought of it as "one who is toady," rather than something like a lineage or a central actor or hub One.
4. It remains to be seen what sort of traps I fail to avoid, but I'm trying to respect Ordinary as something like the main sandbox mode going forward. This is why the chosen quests turn into temple quests quickly (which are accessible from the Ordinary destiny.) I was even going to have gods speaking to sufficiently worthy or unlucky Ordinary people, but the regular conversation engine is too messy to overhaul quickly to get the replies in (so we still have the weird proclamation system.) Ideally, a very accomplished Ordinary person, who has played the game well and been lucky, should be in some ways indistinguishable from a somewhat earlier Hero level game. For recruitment, it almost works like that now, if you can get your reputations and skills high enough. But I'm sure there are times where I'm going to get sloppy or rushed, since it has happened before. And we'll just keep changing things and seeing how people are playing etc.
5. Yeah, back when I thought I'd have more time in 2024, we were thinking of going into demigods and a few other temple-based scenarios to flesh things out. Those notes are still sitting there. This should including Chosen-style characters that are not the player as well, and into fort mode as dwarves, allies, and antagonists. Which is just a form of the magic stuff starting in earnest.
6. There's a vein of RPG players that don't want to see a compass or other meta guide, although you should be able to ask for better directions. I'm pretty sure what'll end up happening is some advanced settings where you can set up some conveniences/difficulties for yourself in Ordinary, hopefully without anything being hard-linked to the modes anymore.
Hi Toady, how are you enjoying the UK so far? Have you met some nice friends?
It has been fun. I haven't gone out of my way to meet people particularly, mostly just getting situated and eating and shopping and such. I have not had Colman's mustard, but I've had the sausage rolls. There are yummy things here.
Is the ability for adventurers to start from fortresses, mountain halls, and dark pits going to be re-enabled before the update releases?
Nope! Their maps are too confusing. We'll need to do some work on the maps themselves and navigating them before this can be done safely.
1. Is lutefisk hard to come by in the UK?
2. Have you ever toyed with the idea of using large language models (or in this case, very small ones) in the game? E.g. for generating the contents of books, poems, etc.
3. Is the idea of expanding the dev team among long-term members of the community on the table (say, in the long term)?
4. From what I understand there won't be a Big Wait anymore. How did you manage to split the map rewrite into manageable chunks? (I did watch a few interviews so sorry if I missed something) Do you have examples of what sort of chunk-sized features from the map rewrite we can expect in the short term? (apart from the usual suspects like extra-dimensional worlds)
5. The myth generator you presented a few years back was very neat. Is it going to be recognizable in its then-form in any way as you fit it in piecewise in the magic updates?
6. What are long-term plans for fleshing out forces in the game and making them distinct from deities? (or indeed making them do anything in game)
7. As deities get fleshed out and get to intervene more and more in the world (through religions, chosen ones, influencing regions, etc.), is the idea of a third "kingdom"/"deity" mode (not necessarily a formal mode but a distinct playstyle that organically develops from having them being playable and do lots of specific deity-stuff) becoming more realistic?
8. Is legends mode forever destined to be a "browsing" mode or have you ever thought about making it "playable" (aka able to be influenced through player actions)?
1. I'm not sure! Because of all that happened, we're just rescheduling our family lutefisk for January in Washington. And I now get to engage in the time-honored tradition of introducing my partner to the feast ha ha, since she'll be along.
2. Nope. I always want my outputs to be linked to game elements so I have control of what they mean and refer to, even if they don't sound as varied. Aside from the copyright issues, which bug me, the training sets would likely bring things in I don't want, or even if they stay in universe well, they'd draw connections the game doesn't back up and doesn't understand.
3. Putnam, most of the artists, and Simon had a pre-existing connection to the community and the game. It seems to be how things go!
4. I was worried about a lot of things, but mostly about how old site maps would react, or pieces of them, if new elements are introduced. After some experiments, I feel like I can split off pieces of the world well enough, so that new features that don't play nice can be kept away from old ones, even in old saves. It seems fine. The other part was just getting anything interesting in place in a short period of time, anything that could really back up what we wanted to do. But since everything's gone de-arcy, that isn't quite as important.
The important non-extra-dimensional bits are basically world map features, underground features, and site maps. (ie, everything else ha ha.) Being able to approach these are separate small additions will be nice.
Sort of in-between extra-dimensional and non-extra-dimensional we have world map structure (like wrapping or weirder stuff.) Initial experiments have also been good here. It's probably the trickiest thing to do in a short burst - like, if the world is shaped like a giant pillar, you'd have to rework map displays, army movement, general connectivity, area generation, what down means, trouble with infinitely falling objects, all in one go, or have done some piece-meal work to get you to that point.
I think this points to a general approach we're going to need to develop in a mindful way for remaining de-arc'd. Which is, what are the evolutionary steps the game has to undergo to reach some of these pinnacles. How can each be "adaptive" in its own right (ie, make for a fun game), while still heading where we need it to go? Of course, the whole DF dev process has been like this, but without arcs, it's suddenly more granular and there's less room for error. Or at least it feels that way. It's still early, and we'll see how it goes and what we learn.
5. I think so. The current remnants are almost analogous to the first sentence of every myth we had there (e.g. "In the beginning, there was an endless expanse of salt." <-> "primordial salt" remnant), and as the current local pantheons for each civ turn into various other coherent ideas, other similarities will arise. We're also aiming at being able to produce a few core paragraphs the same way the prototype did, and this shouldn't feel too different, though they'll likely feel more relevant since they'll be more mechanically linked to the game world.
6. There are a number of ideas here, that sort of smear out the notion of how conscious or personal a thing is, and then what the point of interaction is for the player or whomever is interacting with it. Whatever the elves and/or animal people are doing is probably going to be the starting point for some of it, and that's sort of arbitrarily personal or non-personal, but that'll also probably feel small at first. Then we have those good/evil regions which are fully unexplained/random/arbitrary, and the idea that somehow savage regions have a connection to their inhabitants (ie agitation.) Linking that in to whatever an e.g. forest spirit actually means all seems to be part of the same initial exploratory process. So getting some links in there is probably the first of the long-term plans, something that can be articulated to the player as a coherent procedural notion (or not, depending on whatever is driving mystery vs exposition by this time.)
The myth generator also had the more abstract forces, and ways of tapping them, which is sort of way on the other end, just labeling a previously unlabeled magic type and calling that connection a "force", which has some rules and coherence with attached objects, enough to merit a name, leaving it completely apart from a deity concept (aside from any explicit connection case by case.) Those might come in pretty quickly, and gives us some grist for the mill.
7. Yup! We've been discussing this now in more and more concrete terms as it begins to just sit right there. Once it feels like there's enough, we'll just go for it I think. The NPCs not having schedules or broader reactions is something that's hampering it I think, since zooming the camera around and messing with people (something we could already do in the internal world debug mode with the Manifestation etc.) wasn't very compelling. But the possibility of a deity-style mode might even drive some of these additions as it gets closer, and also tie in to various out-of-body etc etc spells/effects.
8. Is this Legends Mode as distinguished from World Generation (or Restarted World Generation)? I'm not sure what making Legends Mode playable on its own means. But guiding or interacting with world generation in some way would be variously amusing. I think maybe once we have enough additional ways for the world to really change it would be more fun to consider.
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Topic: Future of the Fortress (Read 3183692 times)