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Author Topic: Embark Profiles and Why  (Read 5781 times)

Rogue Yun

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Embark Profiles and Why
« on: March 12, 2018, 12:04:57 am »

I feel somewhat pleased with myself and all the trial and error leading me to these embark profiles. I thought I'd share it and explain why I selected these specific items and attributes and not others. If you are like me and take pride in your suffering to finally find something that works feel free to post your own! If you are new or would like to make a better embark profile I'm sure you will find some of these tips helpful!

The Profiles:

Basic Min Start Profile:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is the absolute bear minimum that I would recommend. All my profiles usually have these basics.
It allows for better distribution of attributes based on "Hidden" knowledge of characters strengths and weaknesses that one might know from outside programs like Dwarf Therapist.

Advanced Min Start Profile: Or how to arm an early militia.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dwarf 1:
Dwarf 1 is the noble dwarf, the expedition leader, the broker, the manager, the book keeper. And that makes him the most expendable.
Dwarf 1's skills enable him see prices and be a good trader when the caravan comes. Should he manage to survive he makes a good engraver.
I give him one skill point in wood cutting just out of ease of not having to assign it manually. He makes a great wood cutter because if he gets eaten or killed while outside cutting trees he will not really be missed.
Giving him five points in engraving is just out of hope that he survives to the late game. Good engravers are hard to come by but if one is lost it is not the biggest setback.
I recommend when the game starts to assign him animal training and have him train a war dog (they follow the people that train them) just out of protection for the engraving investment.

Dwarf 2 and 3:
Dwarf 2 and 3 are really where the meat of the profile resides. They can carve up a quick refuge and/or get a metal industry up and started very quickly.
You can choose not to start with any axes or pickaxes and just bring the resources to make them and Dwarf 2 will have you ready in a jiffy, though I find it best to start with the pickaxe and axe just because it is kind of a hassle when you feel you need safety in a hurry.
My main goal with dwarf 2 and 3 is to have armor and weapons ready for the first couple migrants to become drafted into the military. Because you can't control what a migrant's skills are many migrants make great fodder for a starting militia. If your goal is just to dig these dwarves will do that exceptionally well and the added skills in armor/weaponcrafting is a nice surprise to have when the time comes.
Once you make it to the site I recommend giving them the wood burning and furnace operating occupations to help fuel themselves in their industry.
I don't usually have dwarf 2 or 3 haul much or at all.

Dwarf 4:
Dwarf 4 is the cook, though I usually make him a part time brewer later. I gave him skills in stonecrafting because I like trading with the elves (I'm a hippie dwarf at heart) and stone pots are better for that than wooden barrels. Doesn't hurt to have those nice stone mugs either.

Dwarf 5:
Dwarf 5 is my constructor. His job is to get the forts buildings, traps, and constructions online. The trade depot, bridges, levers, cage traps, etc.. This guy makes the blocks and gets to work relatively early in your fortress and tends to remain useful throughout as you make stone coffers, doors, etc.
Dwarf 5 absolutely needs to have the architect profession assigned to him as having an architect is required for many structures. I didn't find architecture worth wasting a point in but if you like you could reassign a point or two for it. Having him immediately make a mason workshop and turn all the quartzite (see stone) into blocks helps with making the hauling to build future workshops a breeze.

Dwarf 6:
Dwarf 6 is the carpenter. I gave him brewing so that he could make himself barrels if he is needed to make booze but really he stays a carpenter for most of the game.
Dwarf 6 is my star player because his job is making trade goods for the upcoming caravan. The caravan stocks can potentially super supply my fortress with everything it might need.
I usually exempt dwarf 6 from hauling as he helps with defenses (cage traps) and if he has a lot of time to just pump out goods you can really buy out the caravan.

A good item to try and trade would be:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Dwarf 7:
Dwarf 7 has the necessary but thankless job of providing food for the colony. He can help scavenge food from outside until the colony gets on it's feet and once suitable indoor farms can be made.
I definitely exempt dwarf 7 from hauling. Food is usually essential to my forts early survival.
I recommend giving dwarf 7 the animal training profession and have him train the other dog to a war dog.

I tried very hard to match up the jobs so that one job set wouldn't interfere or limit another.

Staple items that are most likely worth bringing!

Food:
I chose llama meat because meat types can be cheaper than the plant types and your civilization will always start with llamas as far as I can tell (no preparation errors).
I chose to take 14 as this will give the dwarves 2 food breaks before your food industry gets up and running. A food break is roughly equivalent to two booze breaks, hence the proportion of 14 food to 28 booze. I tend to go with as less food and booze as possible because once you have the food industry going you never really worry much about food and booze again. It is wise to do increments of 7 as you have seven initial dwarves.

Booze:
I chose to go with 7 of each of the basic alcohol choices. This gives you four wooden barrels. Though the barrels are not full they can be used for other things the sooner they are drained. Also having one of four beverage choices makes for happier dwarves.

Seeds:
In the early game I find that only the plants that can make booze really matter (maybe the pig tails are better suited for clothing but it doesn't make for bad drinks either).
I grab five seeds of each booze making plant and I never really have found myself wanting. You might even get away with less. I skip getting dimple cup spawn as I haven't found much survival use for dying my clothes.

Leather:
Just take a couple in case that strange mood sneaks up on you unexpectedly. Again I chose llama because of civilization availability and I hate llamas (just kidding! I love llamas! They taste delicious!)

Wood:
Embarks without trees/logs to make beds or you need lots of charcoal for your early metal industry, you will never find harm in bringing more wood. Your civilization always seems to have certain subterrainian wood types (like tower-caps) available but my OCD tends to like having brown beds and nothing but brown beds. After a little testing I found that willow logs seem to always be with your starting civilization. I would recommend taking as much wood as you can!

Stone:
Not just any stone, cheap magma-proof stone that will always be with your starting civilization. By name, this would be quartzite. Yeah... I really tested this one out. I might have even updated the wiki article on it. Quartzite is amazing as you will NEVER (at least I never have) get the preparation error with quartzite in your profile. Good stuff with a pretty white color!

Sand:
If ever there is glass needed for a mood? maybe? It's very cheap and nets you some free bags as well if you decided to dump the sand. Possible preparation error depending on types of sand available to your civ.

Clay:
Moods? Maybe? Cheap so better safe than sorry. Same types of errors as sand might apply.

Plaster:
Healthcare! Relatively hard to come by except by trading, and even then it can be hard to get. Heaven forbid you need plaster before the caravan gets there. Actaully, sometimes the caravan is a jerk and doesn't even bring you any, so best to start with some. I don't ever recall getting an error... but there might be one.

Threads of Varying Kinds:
Moods! Moods will troll you on these! Get the different kinds of threads/cloths from caravans and definitely bring some extra silk threads if you can afford it. Don't get caught without them. (Again with the Llamas!)

Tools:
This is the first place where the embark preparation error could ruin your day. Copper is very common but it's not unheard of for there not to be any copper at your starting civilization. In which case you will HAVE to (or rather, I had to because this is my embark profile) to go in and select whatever the cheapest pickaxe/axe combo I could afford.

Anvils:
You'll want to watch this as if you can get by with the much cheaper iron anvil (And often you can) you'll want to. Just hit "-" on the steel anvil and you just netted your profile 300 points (well, 200 if you do the math differently). If not it seems that dwarves poop steel and you will ALWAYS have an steel anvil available. You could technically get away with not starting with an anvil and buying one from the coming caravan, but that will put this profile a little behind as it is focused on getting the metal industry up and going quickly.

Ores:

Because your civilization may start without these you will need to adjust how much you want/need accordingly each time you embark.

Bituminous coal:
Much MUCH cheaper than using wood logs for fuel though you will need one charcoal to get these guys up and going. One coal will net you a lot more (eight I think). Bituminous coal is a rare resource and your starting civ might not have it. Be prepared to have preparation errors pop up for this one.

Tetrahedrite:
Good stuff! Melts down for four copper and sometimes a silver bar or two. The silver is awesome as it can get you the best warhammers early in the game, and the copper is good for arrows and cheap armor. Tetrahedrite has a somewhat expensive combo with cassiterite to get a lot of bronze but it is still worth it. Bronze is better than copper, just an FYI.

Note: Even though I have found from my own experimentation that tetrahedrite is THE most common useful ore, your starting civ might still not have it leading to a preparation error. Sadness :'(

Malachite and Native Copper:
These are the cheapest and better alternatives to the combination with cassiterite to bronze. They are copper ores and either one will work if they are available to your starting civ. They can also provide cheap weapons/tools/armor if you find yourself in a fix. Common ores but not as common as tetrahedrite.

Cassiterite:
Cassiterite is about as rare as the bituminous coal and you will have more of a chance than normal to start without it. It allows for very fast bronze production when smelted with copper ore. Amazing if you have it but don't base all your embark plans around always getting it (unless you jack up the ore frequencies). IIRC, I believe the smelting process nets you eight bronze bars. Enjoy the bliss of awesome early armor for your militia.

HONOROABLE ORE MENTIONS:
Iron: (Hematite and Magnatite) If available these provide an alternative to copper and bronze should you find yourself lacking.
Platinum: Very very rare and very expensive, but it is nice to have at least one on hand in case of a strange mood by dwarf 2. A platinum warhammer or mace is a dream come true. Always worth a brief look to see if you can sneak one into your fortress at embark.

Animals:

Dogs:
Awesome! Train for war with the people you want to protect for maximum effectiveness!

Cats:
Delicious! And they keep vermin away. Kill them before your FPS plummets!

Sheep:
I bet you thought I'd pick llamas! But that would just be baaaahd judgment. Sheep are cheap! And they provide you with that extra resource of yarn.

I made this out of the joy that comes with wanting to share my love of Dwarf Fortress. And the fact that I don't have many people to talk about plans and strats of Dwarf Fortress IRL. I hope someone might have found it helpful!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 12:30:11 am by Rogue Yun »
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Insert_Gnome_Here

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2018, 03:48:42 pm »

Alternative to bringing leather: live turkeys. 
Like a tanned hide, but makes food.
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Quote from: Max™ on December 06, 2015, 04:09:21 am
Also, if you ever figure out why poets/bards/dancers just randomly start butchering people/getting butchered, please don't fix it, I love never knowing when a dance party will turn into a slaughter.

anewaname

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2018, 04:31:00 pm »

Lye is also useful. Bringing it allows you to skip the wood burning and lye-making process, which provides soap sooner. This works well with the live turkey, which provides the fat for the soap.
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Iduno

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 12:59:33 pm »

I'll have to check into quartz. It looks like your profile set-up would do a better job of not needing to be adjusted for every start than my shotgun approach (1 of every milk, a bunch of different meats, try/hope for iron ore and bit coal), but the profile at least getting 80% of what I need is helpful enough and lets me know what to expect from merchants. Somehow my last civ had no iron or iron ores (or any coal), but did have steel. Trading will be important there.

My thoughts on equipment:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As for jobs, the first few are pretty standard. 2 miners and 1 carpenter are almost always needed, so they all get level 5 for speed and quality. I do the same leader as you do as well, and just add some basic jobs on that dwarf until I get migrants. I want the leader to have some idle time to practice talking.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My jobs set-up is probably sub-par. One poorly-trained soldier means an early attack wipes me out, and I don't have spare dwarves to train. I rarely have idlers in the first year or two, and I'm waiting for jobs to finish. Processing everything through the farm workshop before it goes to the kitchen (kitchen only gets cheese and quarry bushes, except when the dwarves find a new source before I can turn it off it the cooking menu) means huge stacks of food, but also "wastes" about half of one dwarf's time. Going butcher/leatherworker/soaper instead would cost more points and not free up that dwarf much, though. And an early attack is less "surgeon needs soap" and more "hope this lone surviving dwarf can bury the dead before the ghosts kill off any migrants who show up."

My other early problem is the terrible default that says I should cook all of my booze and anything that can be turned into booze, and every possible kind of milk that I want to make cheese from. If everyone's starving, I can change that temporarily, but quarry bushes and a bit of cheese should produce more than enough food for everyone forever. Even a "cook nothing" default for the kitchen would be better than "cook everything." Obviously, a more reasonable middle-ground of only cooking things with no other use (plumb helmets can be brewed, booze can be drank, seeds can be planted, milk can be processed, cheese can be cooked, meat can be cooked) would be best. Is there somewhere to set that up in the raws so I don't need to set it up again the exact same way for every single fortress?
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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 01:24:36 pm »

What's the benefit of a steel anvil? I only ever use them when my civ has no iron.
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Quote from: Max™ on December 06, 2015, 04:09:21 am
Also, if you ever figure out why poets/bards/dancers just randomly start butchering people/getting butchered, please don't fix it, I love never knowing when a dance party will turn into a slaughter.

anewaname

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 03:59:35 pm »

The workshop's building value is increased by a steel anvil because it is worth more. I have rebuilt forges using masterwork steel anvils before. At embark, iron is better.
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Sanctume

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 04:15:00 pm »

or 1 more coke/charcoal/etc. (bit nets 8, for a total of 9) than you plan for, you can make your own axe, 2 more and flux if it's steel (bring 1 iron ore, 2 flux, and fuel to make a 4 iron bars->1 pig iron->1 steel with 3 leftover iron).

Wait, not quite.
1 iron ore + 1 (log) fuel = 4 iron bars. 
1 iron bar + 1 flux + 1 fuel = 1 pig iron bar.
1 iron bar + 1 flux + 1 pig iron bar + 1 fuel = 2 steel bars.

So, 1 iron ore + 2 flux + 3 fuel = 2 iron bars and 2 steel bars.
Embark cost: 24(iron ore) + 2x 6(flux) + 3x 3(wood) =
24 + 12 + 9 = 45 embark points.

Thorfinn

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 04:46:21 pm »

... then make meals from cheese./quote]Wait, why? What's the advantage of making meals out of cheese?

Is there somewhere to set that up in the raws so I don't need to set it up again the exact same way for every single fortress?
I do it with DFHack. Make a text file with "ban-cooking" with all the settings you like and "seedwatch" and invoke it as a script. I also record a macro with all those pesky things I could never remember on startup, like only farmers harvest.
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Khthon

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 07:30:34 pm »

I'm definitely behind dropping bringing axes (and maybe limiting myself to one starting pick) in favor of bringing ores instead; I've yet to find a natural source of tin, so to have access to that at 6 points is a steal, honestly. It does mean a bit more initial idling, but the extra bronze/iron more than makes up for that, in my opinion.

Also depending on the biome I don't feel like having a highly skilled carpenter is really all that necessary; if you have a bunch of wood to work with chances are your carpenter is going to be building lots of beds, bins, barrels, buckets and whatever else, and none of it strikes me as really all that time-critical (aside from maybe getting a screw pump to punch through an aquifer), as spending one night sleeping on dirt isn't going to enrage anybody. And all things being equal, carpenters build and gain experience at a much faster rate than a mason would work with stone simply due to the slowdown from hauling. As far as craftsdwarfs go it definitely feels like as long as there's material to work with my carpenter is going to be the first to hit legendary, at any rate.
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Sanctume

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 08:09:39 pm »

carpenter labor to build = 60 exp. 
Need 500 exp from level 0 to 1. 
That's build 9 barrels = 540 exp, to reach level 1 carpenter skill. 

Mason works the same, except Make block only give 30 exp. 

Designing a building the requires carpenter skill seems to gain 6 to 8 exp.

Khthon

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2018, 10:50:34 pm »

Sure by action they gain exp at the same rate, but ceteris paribus the carpenter will gain experience faster simply because the wood takes less time to haul.

I'm not saying embark with a peasant for a carpenter, I'm just saying embarking with a fully Skilled carpenter has never struck me as a real necessity when your carpenter will gain experience faster (given the material) than any other trade sans maybe a woodcrafter, and you can take things at embark that you may never find in your fortress—notably ores of tin and iron, occasionally bituminous coal, and to a lesser extent plaster—and will only get in limited quantity later from caravans. Granted iron ore isn't guaranteed, but it seems like you can depend on the mountainhomes to almost always have cassiterite and at least one ore of copper.

I can definitely see the argument from a game play perspective to have highly skilled dwarfs use what the land provides, but in terms of value personally I'd say 8 bars of bronze is a much better deal than two levels in Carpentry.

Nice to know about the building experience, though!
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Dragonborn

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 08:19:30 am »

For me, I tend to take dwarves with a few levels in carpentry, mason, and stone crafting because of how much time it saves building essential stuff.  I like being able to churn out doors, tables, chairs, beds, blocks, barrels/stone pots etc. quickly to get my initial dorm, tavern, manager office, and drawbridge up as soon as possible. 
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FengL0ng

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2018, 08:55:42 am »

I can't give the raws like you did, but here is my List of essential items:

1 Anvil
15 Prickleberry seeds (or another above ground plant)
[15 Pigtail seeds (or not if I feel I can get cotton)]
30 Dwarven Ale (or substitutes)
30 Prepared Llama Brain (or some other food item that is always available in the profiles)
15 Malachite (or Tetrahedrite if not available)
20 Bituminous Coal
1 Coke
2 Wooden Spears (preferably hard wood)
~100 Blocks (Olivine, Cobaltite or Ruthile depending on how I feel)

I like to build above ground and exclude underground crops from my playstyle completely.

Whatever you do, in my opinion it is an absolute waste of resources taking a copper pick and axe.
And every embark profile needs to include Bituminous Coal or Lignite, since it saves aeons of wood burning.
Burning one bar of bituminous coal yields a net gain of 8 coke bars, effectively giving you fuel throughout
the full second year until the caravan brings more.

You can skip the blocks and instead take a dozen war dogs if you prefer.
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Sanctume

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2018, 09:53:40 am »

The initial items in the embark affect the "challenge" for the fort, all of the items and skills are somewhat attainable over time; so it's just a preference on how critical the items are needed. 

Relative to the selected biome and weather (evil, reanimating, thrall/husking clouds, and/or glacier), skills to speed up tasks may be crucial from day 1.   

How many have played around "minimal embark" forts?  0 embark points used?  limited to few items like anvil+axe+1pick or anvil+1 ore?

Anvil: without it, delays the progress of the fort until an anvil is acquired from the trade caravan; or the rare event of an artifact anvil.

Metal battle axe: without it, delays access to more logs for construction and item material.

Pick: without it, delays convenience of rooms dug underground, compared to constructing above with walls and ceilings. 

--
Anvil only, or even at a 0 embark (points used) challenge will still net you 3 wood logs from the wagon, and 2 pack animals. 
But since the tree cutting requires and edge (metal) axe, embarking without the means to cut trees limit that challenge to live until the caravan and depends on what resources the biome provide (water source for fish, plant fauna, fruit trees, and to some extent hunting)

--
"Anvil +1 weapon-grade (copper, or iron)" challenge is about the time delay to build wood burner, smelter, and forge to create  picks and axes to reach the "Anvil + Axe + Pick". 
100 points for iron anvil, 300 for steel anvil.
6 points? for native copper/malachite; and 24? points for limonite/hematite/magnetite iron ore.

I mean, once you know how to convert the ore to pick and axes, that's part of the challenge "accomplished" and ready to move on to another level.
--
"Anvil + Axe + Pick" embark would be spending ~70? points for copper pick, and ~170? points for copper battle axe.
It's probably less in total, but compared to 6 points copper ore to make it yourself, you can buy other items to "save time" from making them. 

--
The rest of the items is just playing with min/maxing and trade off for "time spend making them" :

charcoal cost 10 points. 
1 lignite ore, when smelted gains 3? net cokes. 
1 bituminous coal ore, smelted gains 7 net cokes. 

1 lye comes in a bucket, and can stack in the same bucket. 
Making lye requires 1 log -> 1 ash + 1 bucket each; a total of 2 logs (6 points) and time to 3 buildings.

Bringing alcohol an food (meat, garden vegetable, milk, fish), will pool same animal type into the 1 free barrel container. 
Unsure what is the cut off amount to gain another barrel, was it 20 = 1 barrel, 21 = 2 barrels? 

Seeds and sand comes in 1 bag for each type. 

--
Hospital supplies:
Threads are expensive (6 or 7? for silk, 12 for pig tail).  The guaranteed pig tail seeds can only be grown in summer and autumn, so there is a risk for spring injury and not having thread. 
Cloth are expensive too (6 or 7? for silk, 12 for pig tail). 

Gypsum plaster.  I used to take some of these but I think that came from old video tutorials.  using wood to make splints will do the same task as using gypsum plaster. 

Rope is in the default embark profile, for around 50 points.  This is often remove but I think rope can be easily dismissed as necessary, until the need for traction bench comes up when there are no chains available. 

--
Mood items. 
I think these also come from old video tutorials that I often find myself taking:
green glass - can these serve as rough gems for moods? 
fire clay - just in case someone needs clay?
wool cloth and silk cloth because cloth has 3 types, 4 if you count candy. 

--
Starting skills = 1. 
Sometimes giving 1 skill is some form of time saver from assigning the labor to the dwarf from day 1. 




rhavviepoodle

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Re: Embark Profiles and Why
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2018, 10:28:14 am »

I can understand using embark profiles as a template to start from, but I never really use embark profiles. Generally I like to match occupations with a dwarf's preferences (especially to guarantee given prospective artifacts, for example), which makes embark profiles somewhat redundant. And I try not to worry about specific "essential skills" because chances are I can always fill in the gaps with some of my migrants.
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