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Author Topic: Infiltration - ancient evil god game simulator  (Read 21113 times)

Rowanas

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2018, 05:19:07 am »

I looked for a log first thing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Java version is whatever the java that I downloaded yesterday for the exclusive purpose of playing this game is. Ah, there we go.

java version "1.8.0_181"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_181-b13)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 25.181-b13, mixed mode, sharing)

Windows 10 (eurgh)

I gotta admit, it's been a while since I used the Terminal, in fact I've barely used it since I had a mac, hence Terminal, not Command Prompt.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Gornova

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2018, 09:21:39 am »

Maybe add some sort of logging file, which can output the status of the game's startup process. That way you can narrow down which of the files it's actually loaded etc, whether there's a folder problem, etc.

Sure, you are right!
Currently I'm working create one exe file for windows, with jre inside, so there is no need to download anything
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Rowanas

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2018, 02:32:21 am »

For anyone else who has the grey screen problem - Don't be an imbecile, unzip the bloody thing first.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Reelya

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2018, 02:42:36 am »

That could also be a dev issue.

*Detect* that the folders are missing and stick up a message about it, which also asks you if you unzipped the folder. If nothing else, it will prevent having to answers endless questions about the grey screen.

Gornova

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2018, 02:50:54 am »

Yep, I'm working on it.
I'm testing a build for windows with all included, even Jre, so need to download anything, if someone what to join this test, just PM me
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Reelya

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2018, 02:58:40 am »

This right here is why a lot of professional devs are turning to engines such as Unity or Unreal.

If you roll your own, you need to know that you're going to spend X percent of your time working on code maintenance and platform compatibility, rather than spending that time designing your game.

I'd recommend building out prototypes in Unity, and only porting them to low-level homebrew systems at the end, if necessary for higher performance.

Rowanas

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2018, 03:17:25 am »

I 100% disagree with Unity. I know it's gotten better, but I still have deep reservations about it.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Gornova

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2018, 06:25:44 am »

About Unity, my 2 cents.

It's an hobby for me. I'm not a professional, just a hobby to work on my free time. I know Java better than c# or unity and I like it. Many times in the past I've found this choice interesting: "learn something new and cool, or just put some code on" ?
I've build small prototype in Unity and found it interesting and cool, but in the end, I feel more confortable with Java.

About Infiltration: is a prototype made in my free time, so rewrite it in Unity for me right now is not feasible. Better is to spend my time on improve way my players can play my little prototype, get som feedback about the actual game (and mechanics) and then work on a bigger prototype (or actual game)
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Rowanas

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2018, 08:57:10 am »

Ok, so... my full and uninterrupted feedback post, both from me and the friends I've tried to introduce to Infiltration.

I'll stick largely away from issues of content, since content will come, and focus on the issues that might arise as content is added and the like.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 09:29:55 am by Rowanas »
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Gornova

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2018, 02:09:09 am »

Thanks Rowanas, so much feedback in one post, thank you and your friends, I will consider all points and think about it a little bit before post again!

Thanks!
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hermetic_cab

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2018, 11:43:16 am »

So... i'm getting the same thing someone else reported. Grey screen. Resources folder is there, everything looks to be in place inside it, but... grey screen.

It's a classpath problem.
I get the same white game-screen when I start the game by double click, cause the program can't find it's graphics.
By starting the game with java -jar Infiltration-0.0.4.jar all works.
I'm using linux not windooze, but it should work for you guys by starting from console too.

Gornova you might fix the probs when you put the resources into the jar, not in an extern folder and make the game use them there.
By the way you have some of the graphics second times, in the jar and in the outside resources-folder too. ;)

After all nice game idea!
But I found the game too easy, I clicked without reading the docs/forum what to do and won after some rounds. Maybe make it more harder, so the player can really loose the game?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 11:57:45 am by hermetic_cab »
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Gornova

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2018, 03:05:16 pm »

Thanks hermetic_cab for feedback (if you want to contribute more, I have sent a pm to you).

To fix classpath/resources problems, I have created a new release for the game, version 0.0.5, with a small release notes:

- fix bugs on user interface
- enhanced and corrected text from Rowan
- new build system, with all resources included and two separate build, one for windows (.exe file) and one for linux/mac (.jarfile)

Thanks Rowan for fixing my typos and grammar errors, now game is more easily to understand an hopefully more understandable :D

You can download new version on itch.io here
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Gornova

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2018, 03:57:08 pm »

First of all, I want to empathize how much is important for an hobby developer to get feedback on a prototype, so thank you!

Quote
Until you know how to begin, it can seem like even starting a game is an impossible task.  We're told to manipulate the mortals using the Calling button, but the feedback on what's going on is so poor, I didn't realise I had even done anything to begin with. The blue dot and lack of a black button on the character indicated that something might happen, but it appeared to me that you must first discover the person by scouting them before any calling could be done, and that was not made clear at all in the opening message.

You are right, from my experience on videogames when you do an action you get immediately a feedback. I have to improve on that, both on technical side (how to change over/on over style of a button in the game) and explanation side (maybe a graphical tutorial is more clear than a full-text explanation ?)

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From there flow general gripes with how information is provided to us with regards to character actions.  Generally, any character actions are lost in the scrum of world actions (which, at present, we cannot influence)  Perhaps splitting the feedback dialogue into two, one for character actions and one for world actions, would make the comings and goings of the actors more obvious. I didn't realise someone was starting a quest against me until I received a little message saying that they had failed, for instance.  On the occasions that I did use an action against another character, I felt that there was very little feedback on what they were likely to attempt, and nothing at all on what they had actually done.  While an element of randomness or uncertainty is desirable, the player still needs to understand the possible outcomes of their actions for the game to work. My friends had mixed feelings on taking up even more space with feedback screens, but perhaps this could later be rolled into the quest dialogue (plus the ease-of-coding that might be gained from framing everything within a quest).

You get on a key point of the game: how much space this kind of games should put on text descriptions an how much on icons, indicators and so on ?
I have decided to create a separate “log” for every characters so is more clear what a single actor have done and is doing, to ease player in understanding the game too.
I’m not cool on split to icons on world/actors dialogue, but again here with a little bit of colour on question marks icons, all should be more clear!
I’m not sure that this solution will bring more order or not in the game, but this is a prototype, so I can change quickly and iterate on this kind of solutions.

Quote
On the subject of character interactions, (and this is a minor note) each person needs to possess a tangled web of relationships. While hate is the only one that exists currently, the current single-target hate doesn't provide enough opportunities. Let each person hate two or even three other people. When relationships and character actions evolve, it might be handy to assign these feelings a value, either internally or exposed to the player, which indicates the depth and thus, the possible actions arising from, an attempted character action.  I put this here because if it's going to be shown to the player, the UI will need to incorporate a potentially long list of relationships, each with their own values. 

You are right, I forgot to put more effort on relations side, but like I’ve said before, my focus is in create and finish core mechanics, the expand on new ones. I can for sure let actors “hate more people”, let’s put in that way (always randomly for now)

Quote
Clues are also an annoyance, in that the game clearly tracks them, while the player cannot. An obvious entry somewhere on the city screen would be helpful in helping us determine where to focus our efforts, and as the districts get fleshed out, they might need to take on the roll of clue-holders, rather than the city at large.  This would enable players to install an antagonistic ruler of a district in order to keep prying eyes away. Just a thought.

I was thinking the hide and seek aspect of the game is enjoyable, but I clearly misunderstood how much frustration could pop out of this. Sorry for the inconvenience, I will put a small indicator on every city, so it will be more clear for players which cities require investigations or in contrast the ones that are fully explored.
I like the idea to connect districts and clues together, something that for now is only a sketch!

Quote
The impact of a Rebellion or Loyalist win is.. nothing?  I haven't worked out if this is an issue of it lacking content, or an issue of the player not being informed what the differences are.  Of course, this too will need to be made more obvious as complexity grows, especially if regime changes become a more natural element of character interactions with juntas and assassinations taking the place of never-ending food riots.  If even these could be represented within the quest framework, we would have a strong idea of the causes and outcomes of these sorts of city/world actions.

This is also an huge point. Rebellion vs Loyalist forces in the “grand view” of the game is like you said a regime change that enables intra cities politics.
Let’s take a look outside for a moment, not from ancient one point of view, but from mortal side. In my vision the map is home, for now, for only one kingdom. This kingdom is divided in different provinces with rules (dukes, for examples). If a rebellion overthrown a duke, other cities will take a actions and this will have impact on city to city relation, guild to guild relation and finally on actors relations too.
My idea is to explore also actors position on “rebellion vs loyalist”: a mortal that want to fight rebellion in a city could become more manipulable for ancient evil or not?
Like you have point out, this ideas are only a draft in the game, mostly because I have to find a way to present all these situations to the player

Quote
So, I've spoken a lot about the "quest framework", so I'd like to elaborate on what I mean.  This is a mix of how I'd like to see actions presented, and the means by which they are undertaken.  I envisage a popup box for your interactions with the world, in which each element of the world may play a part. Essentially, when you want to make use of something you would select it as the prime mover of a quest. Then you would select a target (a city, a district, a character, a clue or even a less concrete thing, like the rebellion currently underway, or the region in which your foes have marshalled an army. You could then add additional resources, either further pawns, money, eldritch power or anything else in the game world over which you have some modicum of control.  The opposition would depend on the target and various circumstances, such as the presence of an army, or the current Doge of the city in which you take your action.  For instance, if you want to institute the usurpation of a local Doge in order to place your favourite minion, Valerie, (a dyed-in-the-wool politico) at the head of the table, you would first open the Quest Dialogue, place your devious, political minion to be elected (or depending on how complex this gets, someone else who will install your favourite minion) in the actor box, and the current Doge character, Doge Vincent (or again, complexity allowing, the very position of Doge) in the target box.  The Vincent's wealth would fill one defender box beside him immediately, so you react by placing the angry peasants (that the current food shortage has generated) in an attacker box beside Valerie. The Doge pops the mercenaries he hired as a result of a previous action, in another defender box beside him.  Doge Vincent, sadly, has more than just positive resources on his character card - you select the Scandal you spent a bit of time and money creating (the result of a previous action you took with a local harlot as the actor and the Doge as the target) and slot that in your third attacking box. The Doge has no further options, as you've spent a while slowly eroding his control over the city council, and just for good measure you put one of those very council members in one of your boxes - you could add more, but why expose your precious resources to risk when you've probably already got this.  Sitting in town there's a rebellious cleric, but the Doge doesn't use him and neither do you - he's too anti-establishment to be helpful to the Doge and he's too wary of the insidious evil that your (unfortunately revealed) politician agent works for to be anything but a danger to your plans.. for now.  Had your politico avoided a previous quest which unearthed her as an agent of the darkness, she could have made use of this wayward clergyman without risking her plans, and with additional actions later he might be swayed or tricked to your benefit.  Obviously in a straight-up fight Valerie would've gotten her face done in - The mercenaries are much better fighters than peacekeepers, and the manufactured scandal would have been of no use at all.  Add to that that the Doge is famous for his swordsmanship, and that Valerie has a flat 0 in a fight, and perhaps Doge Vincent could've averted this whole crisis with a spot of martial law (after all, evil prospers when good men do nothing), or perhaps the repurcussions would have only given you another opportunity further down the line, with Doge Vincent having acquired the "Tyrant" trait.

I think that unifying all quests, events and action into this single Quest Framework would ensure readability and provide an easy way to implement and represent the conflicts that go on during the game. In this manner the heroes attempting to uncover a clue can be easily handled by assigning one hero as the actor and his party members as attacker resources with the clue as the target, and whatever you happen to put in their way being the defenders.  The rebellious peasants would work much the same way - angry peasants as actor, the district, character or city being their target and the various circumstances of the game being played either as attacker resources or defender resources with an outcome decided by the appropriate values of the resources on each side and a small amount of RNG.

For visualisation, since it was a bit of a mess up there, I've attached a little Paint drawing for your viewing pleasure. Obviously I'm a shit artist.

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One of my friends pointed out that this setup seems very Cultist Simulator-y to him. Fair point.

Wow, a lot of ideas!
I agree with your friend that seems to be something like Cultist Simulator ( a game that I own and love, but found it sometime really difficult to understand and to predict future outcome for your actions).
I like the approach and this exchange of ideas help me to focus on what players need to know. From what you write, I see the need to understand what are modifiers for every action of the game from actor/guild/district/city/world side and possible outcomes with the antagonist. I think this could and should be done quickly, without change too much the game.
I appreciate also the “openess” of this approach. Add a new event in a city, district or a new actor will result in a new “tag” that related to a particular action (fight, relationship or war/peace).
I will start from actor side, because these are the “manipulation point” for players and will get feedback again on that, if you want to contribute again.

I will end point out how much amazing this community is and thanks for Rowan for incredible feedback, thanks!
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Gornova

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2018, 02:13:15 pm »

​Welcome back for a new release of Infiltration an ancient evil prototype, version 0.0.6!

Play it now!

In this version I've worked on many feedback I've been received on version 0.0.4 and 0.0.5 and improved user interface.
In particular now it's more clear what user can click, because every clickable element in the game has an "on over" image,
so just move the mouse and click.. you will see the effect! I've improved a little bit the general feeling of the game with new icons from Skyrim map set and a little new icon near every city, so you get quickly the idea where you have already corrupted agents and where not.
There is also for every NPC a little quest log, so you can follow every win and losses for every actor in the game,
without lose everything in the "main log" on bottom part of the interface.
Now it's also more clear what an NPC is doing because in actors list there is a quick view on current action and a counter:
this counter is the time that action require in order to be completed. This will include both player actions (focus, calling) and
NPC actions (investigate for example).

The game has now a radical change that will alter how do you play this prototype and, even if I like ui changes and feedback on this side,
I'd like to know if this change it's okay for you or not. I'm talking about the link between a district in a city
and a secret.
As you know, in this game you are an ancient evil trapped in a prison and you have to find hidden knowledge of the world
in order to become powerful again. To do so, you will focus your power on mortals, establishing a link to their mortal minds,
then send them in active search of hidden knowledge, using calling action.
This action is really powerful, but after is completed, you will gather information on where the secret is located.
If you are lucky, could be the same district that belong to your puppet, but if you are not lucky.. you have to decide.
It's better to send my puppet against the mortal that own the district, or focus and then calling again the mortal?

I believe that this little change is a radical change in how player will play the game and a fundamental stone on how player can manipulate mortals in following his plan.

Let me know what do you think!
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Infiltration mechanics
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2018, 05:22:01 pm »

By the way, do you think this would fit better in Creative Projects?
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