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Author Topic: Slow learner creature discussion  (Read 1407 times)

FantasticDorf

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Slow learner creature discussion
« on: April 01, 2018, 01:16:50 pm »

Used to contain the discussion from the current FotF thread, voice your opinion, theories and constructive dissent on slow learners here please.

Here's a recap of what we have so far.

Page 1 - the main bulk starting here
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Page 2 - this one is much shorter.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is where we are right now and ill port over my reply to goblincookies recent post.

It has nothing to do with the tokens.  Creatures are either defined as citizens, or they are defined as pets, if they are not citizens then they are pets.  [PET] simple allows civilizations to take wild creatures as pets. 

Slow learners are both, trolls have no explicit tags upon them but the [USE_EVIL_CREATURES] forces the livestock aspect onto them to anyway without [PET] or anything of the sort. For all intensive purposes, trolls cannot be classed as intelligent citizens because they have codified slow learner restriction and changes but are only pushed into a intelligent creature. I doubt that caste ZM5 has are really citizens, but it is the system in conflict of having them in both fields until a more direct line is drawn under it in a similar instance to where gremlins stop being livestock pets.

Trolls you embark with if you were to mod in a simple civilization switch and some basic noble roles to prevent crashes can be elected by other sentients to be the expedition leader, start & equip tailored clothes for themselves at a later date, prefer to sleep in beds and claim rooms and in previous versions could work occupation roles.    "(*) Stopped certain stolen livestock from being treated like half-citizens on the 44.07" may indeed be relevant if things are slipping the net in wibbly wobbly middlespace.


Sorry if its a lot of text, but it IS a containment thread where each piece of detail is important to preserve where we can.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2018, 02:22:20 pm »

I do believe the [PET] property (i.e. regardless of which specific tag is bringing the property about) is highly relevant to the strange behavior of (somehat) intelligent citizens, based on the behavior of vanilla gremlins. They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was). They also require constant retraining which they rarely show up for because hauling has a higher priority.
Those who have modded animal people to have the [PET] tag to allow for capture of wild ones for recruitment as citizens might have been able to recruit an animal people visitor into citizenship. If that has happened, it would be quite interesting to hear whether those animal people behaved correctly, or if the [PET] tag bugged them. It's quite possible nobody has been able to get animal people visitors as citizens at the same time as having them modded, though, given how rare animal people visitors seem to be...
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2018, 02:26:59 pm »

They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was).

The lack of a jump to letting you see their inner thoughts is a credible evidence towards the fact they aren't actually citizens or have cast off their pet code decisively, when comparably long term residents of civilized visitor races do. Let it be noted that @Button successfully wild caught wolverine men to the same effect in this mantis note for the gremlin issue report.

[PET] and [PET_EXOTIC] act upon different terms with it generally noted that [PET] will afflict jobs onto creatures typically and [PET_EXOTIC] will keep them as plain livestock.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 02:30:48 pm by FantasticDorf »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 02:47:09 am »

I do believe the [PET] property (i.e. regardless of which specific tag is bringing the property about) is highly relevant to the strange behavior of (somehat) intelligent citizens, based on the behavior of vanilla gremlins. They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was). They also require constant retraining which they rarely show up for because hauling has a higher priority.
Those who have modded animal people to have the [PET] tag to allow for capture of wild ones for recruitment as citizens might have been able to recruit an animal people visitor into citizenship. If that has happened, it would be quite interesting to hear whether those animal people behaved correctly, or if the [PET] tag bugged them. It's quite possible nobody has been able to get animal people visitors as citizens at the same time as having them modded, though, given how rare animal people visitors seem to be...

Pets are a citizen status, not a token.  The creatures behave according to their citizen status and whether they can work, not according to whether they have that token or not.  These statuses are unalterable at present, so there is no way for a pet to become a citizen or vice versa.  They are also bugged so that even though pets that can learn are treated as workers by the game, their labours are not controllable by the interface and only default labours are active. 
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2018, 04:44:58 am »

I do believe the [PET] property (i.e. regardless of which specific tag is bringing the property about) is highly relevant to the strange behavior of (somehat) intelligent citizens, based on the behavior of vanilla gremlins. They're caught in caverns like animals, trained, petition for citizenship, and become citizens that can be butchered (or at least have that option: I haven't actually tried), automatically get all hauler jobs upon becoming citizens, but cannot be given jobs via the DF interface, nor can their thoughts be seen (so you can be informed that your gremlin noble has made a demand, but not see what it was). They also require constant retraining which they rarely show up for because hauling has a higher priority.
Those who have modded animal people to have the [PET] tag to allow for capture of wild ones for recruitment as citizens might have been able to recruit an animal people visitor into citizenship. If that has happened, it would be quite interesting to hear whether those animal people behaved correctly, or if the [PET] tag bugged them. It's quite possible nobody has been able to get animal people visitors as citizens at the same time as having them modded, though, given how rare animal people visitors seem to be...

Pets are a citizen status, not a token.  The creatures behave according to their citizen status and whether they can work, not according to whether they have that token or not.  These statuses are unalterable at present, so there is no way for a pet to become a citizen or vice versa.  They are also bugged so that even though pets that can learn are treated as workers by the game, their labours are not controllable by the interface and only default labours are active. 
Catch a gremlin. It's an "animal". Tame it. It's an animal. Accepts its citizenship application. It's no longer an animal but a citizen according to the Units screens, but it is still a butcherable (and trainable) animal according to the z-animal screen. In addition to this. Their citizen status is stunted. I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens. I haven't tried it, but I would expect it to be possible for a citizen to adopt a gremlin as a pet. Gremlins can work, but you can only make them work in non hauler positions (and restrict hauler ones) through non vanilla means (such as DFHack and Dwarf Therapist). I think Dwarf Therapist also allows you to set residents (such as mercs) and children to work, although I haven't tried that either (residents currently work as harvesters and traders occasionally in vanilla, given the opportunity. My first gremlin in the current fortress switched from being a gremlin hunter to a gremlin trader after taking up an "anyone can trade" trading job before he had applied for citizenship, for instance).
Animals are not pets in the game play sense before they are adopted (or adopt), so that status is not immutable (they can probably never CEASE to be pets, though). You have invented a citizen status you call PET which only muddies the waters, but there is little difference between an animal that is adopted as a pet versus one that isn't (becoming a hist fig, and an increased tendency to follow the owner around, although bonded animals tend to do so as well). When it comes to sapients that are trainable, systems clash in a somewhat broken way, resulting in the current gremlin (and modded animal people) situation, and it seems to extend to raid captured trainable (by the owning civ, at least) sapients as well, although I haven't yet acquired any of those.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2018, 05:05:56 am »

I hate to mention it but that wall of text PatrikLundell was not easy on the eyes to look through, but i picked out the parts i felt were relevant from it.

Quote
I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens.

Definitely unexpected behaviour

Quote
You have invented a citizen status you call PET which only muddies the waters, but there is little difference between an animal that is adopted as a pet versus one that isn't (becoming a hist fig, and an increased tendency to follow the owner around, although bonded animals tend to do so as well)

Giving the creature additional training is a odd one, especially when you in turn give a semi-intelligent a pet or war animal when it may be a pet/war animal itself. In many ways you can exploit this by making a semi-sapient a war animal with relevant tags, then equip them into a military squad buggily

Quote
When it comes to sapients that are trainable, systems clash in a somewhat broken way, resulting in the current gremlin (and modded animal people) situation, and it seems to extend to raid captured trainable (by the owning civ, at least) sapients as well, although I haven't yet acquired any of those.

That's not meant to be possible, toady disabled the capability to take intelligent subordinate creatures in raids.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2018, 07:11:59 am »

I hate to mention it but that wall of text PatrikLundell was not easy on the eyes to look through, but i picked out the parts i felt were relevant from it.
:
That's valid criticism. I'll try to split it up more (but won't make promises...).

:
Quote
I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens.

Definitely unexpected behaviour
:
Not really. Bonding between trainer and trainee "animals" isn't uncommon. It would require an explicit action to remove/convert such a bond upon becoming a citizen, as well as blocking one from forming once they are citizens (which won't happen for me, as I set them to Tame once they become citizens, due to the training bugginess).

Quote
:
That's not meant to be possible, toady disabled the capability to take intelligent subordinate creatures in raids.
Ah, missed/misinterpreted that. I think that's for the better anyway.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2018, 12:11:12 pm »

Catch a gremlin. It's an "animal". Tame it. It's an animal. Accepts its citizenship application. It's no longer an animal but a citizen according to the Units screens, but it is still a butcherable (and trainable) animal according to the z-animal screen. In addition to this. Their citizen status is stunted. I'm fairly sure I've seen citizen gremlin being bonded to dwarven citizens. I haven't tried it, but I would expect it to be possible for a citizen to adopt a gremlin as a pet. Gremlins can work, but you can only make them work in non hauler positions (and restrict hauler ones) through non vanilla means (such as DFHack and Dwarf Therapist). I think Dwarf Therapist also allows you to set residents (such as mercs) and children to work, although I haven't tried that either (residents currently work as harvesters and traders occasionally in vanilla, given the opportunity. My first gremlin in the current fortress switched from being a gremlin hunter to a gremlin trader after taking up an "anyone can trade" trading job before he had applied for citizenship, for instance).
Animals are not pets in the game play sense before they are adopted (or adopt), so that status is not immutable (they can probably never CEASE to be pets, though). You have invented a citizen status you call PET which only muddies the waters, but there is little difference between an animal that is adopted as a pet versus one that isn't (becoming a hist fig, and an increased tendency to follow the owner around, although bonded animals tend to do so as well). When it comes to sapients that are trainable, systems clash in a somewhat broken way, resulting in the current gremlin (and modded animal people) situation, and it seems to extend to raid captured trainable (by the owning civ, at least) sapients as well, although I haven't yet acquired any of those.

I have not invented anything, that is how the game works; it does not have anything to do with being adopted by anyone, that is an extra element.  You have entity citizens, which used to be always dwarves until recently, then you have entity pets and then you have wild animals.  The confusing thing is when you have intelligent creatures that are also pets rather than citizens, this used to be the automatic consequence of having a citizen that was not a dwarf.  I was unaware that gremlins could make citizenship applications, that requires that they be resident visitors correct?  If you capture and tame an intelligent creature, it is still a pet ablait one with extra abilities and restrictions as a consequence of it's intelligence tokens.  But since the interface is broken you cannot make proper use of working creatures with pet status, though they carry out a lot of the behavior of citizens automatically in any case. 

Basically the whole thing is an unholy, mangled mess.   :)
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Slow learner creature discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2018, 12:28:48 pm »

No. Gremlins do not join civilizations the normal animal people way, and thus cannot come to your fortress as a visitor (unless it would be from a retired player fortress, somehow). You capture them in gremlin trap setups, tame them, and that presumably implicitly serves as the first petition. After a year or so they typically progress in skill to gremlin hunter (from just gremlin), and after two years they make a citizen petition. I've never rejected any of those (for gremlins or any other residents), so I don't know what would happen if I did.

Modding (surface) animal people with the [PET_EXOTIC] tag has been described to cause wild captured ones to behave as gremlins do, but I've never tried that, so it's second hand info.

Gremlins drink, sleep in beds [first in rooms associated with the tavern, and then they claim a regular room] (and they die of sleep deprivation if kept in a cage and trained after capture), read books, socialize... They can be entered into militia squads once they're citizens (although they're rather useless, as they can't wield any weapon dwarves can make, and I don't know if a kobold knife is too large for a double grip usage, and just a shield causes them to move at a crawl).
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